C1 Frustration : Satisfaction = To Much Frustration
I almost pulled the trigger on the update yesterday but stopped to read what people were saying about it here first. You know look for the winey complainers who look closely at their photos and see if there are messed up artifacts in the HDR pictures and so on. But why scrutinize when the program is such a bargain at twice the subscription price of Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop a month.
And all of a sudden it dawned on me. The main driving force for me to find capture one in the first place was not because I felt like Lightroom and Photoshop were bad programs. It was because I did not want to be a part of a ridiculous payment plan. Looking at the adobe plans today I could not believe that the plan for Lightroom, Lightroom Classic, Photoshop, Photoshop for Ipad, Portfolio, and 20 gigs of online storage is less than half the cost of C1. $32 vs. $12.99 Canadian.
So get this. My situation. I did not buy the update last year. That saved me $220 CAD. If I bought the update this year it would cost me $220 CAD. OK, so over 24 months = $9 a month for me to have every other year updates. So $220 over 12 months is about $18. So even buying C1 the cheapest way possible is still about 40% more expensive.
For $12.99 CAD I would have the Adobe package with all the updates throughout the two-year period for free. Different software, different packages, but Adobe has become the better value by far and they are putting out the most used photo editing software in the world by heads and shoulders. Most professionals are processing their images through Photoshop and Lightroom and creating the best images that exist today. I am confident that it is good enough for me.
This year C1 added the main feature I had been waiting for HDR! I was honestly excited to buy it. But after reading about strange artifacts in the HDR images I was out. I will either just continue to use the Canons 5Ds in body processing. It's great, I very rarely get weird water artifacts and so on. Or continue to use Affinity Photo or one of the other dedicated HDR apps. BTW the cost of Affinity Photo and at least 1 of the other dedicate programs costs less than the C1 update.
In fact, one could buy the entire line of Affinity products and have enough money left over to go out and have an amazing dinner for the price of the C1 update. Just not sure what to say there.
I am decided to take another serious look at DXO Photo Studio. I have been doing side-by-side comparisons of C1 and DXO basic RAW processing of Canon Cr2 files. To be blunt C1 looks bad when put side by side. Images are oversharpened, unrealistically punchy, and still distorted in my case. C1 has no lens profiles for my two primary lenses. The "obscure" Sigma 35mm ART, and Sigma 70-200mm Sport. They are some of the best lenses for the Canon EF mount Canon or not. Capture one has not provided a profile in three years. After repeated inquires with C1 I was more or less told we have no obligation to make any lens profiles available, and besides, you can make your own profile with our tool. I am like pardon? DxO has spent 20 years dedicated to these details and people the world over refer to their findings to decide what lenses are good for them. I guess C1 does not value accuracy with lens distortion and sharpness. Am I confused or is that not a fundamental step of what a raw developer is for? Accounting for the camera and the lens and with know data creating the best-developed image? I guess not for C1. The tone of the email got even worse when I was told that it is against their policy to reveal the lens profile roadmap.
Let's just say I was laughing out loud when I opened DxO Photo Studio and on the title bar of the program there is a drop-down menu called "Dxo Optics Modules. You click on that and you can choose "DxO Optics Modules Roadmap" and "Suggest a DxO Optics Module to DxO". Again the contrast is so stark it's laughable.
But let us not be bitchy right? Let's be reasonable. But here's the kicker somehow for $288 on sale right now I can buy The brand new DXO with the just updated Ultra Film Pack, and Viewpoint distortion correction. And in my humble opinion, the film emulations are better than even the best packs available for C1. And the integration is elegant. And the Viewpoint features an "auto" feature that works about 70% of the time. It also corrects for things that are not offered in C1
DXO catalogue is nothing in comparison. There is no preset stacking, the export features are VERY basic, the print features are VERY basic (but actually work without having to be a print engineer), and so on. It also moves slower on my system. This being said my video card is a fair bit under their minimum recommended card.
All this being said I just can't overlook the RAW processing quality of DXO combined with the lens profiles, lens sharpening, and Viewpoint straighten out my images in 1 second 70% of the time. These are fundamental features that I have been working without for years and I am stunned to see what the difference is. Capture one has more advanced features but it lacks the fundamental features that a RAW developer should have in my opinion.
My goal is always to get the image as close as humanly possible in-camera as I can. I have gotten better at that over the years so my need for intense correction has lessened. I just want my photos to look like what I shot. DXO basic RAW processing on Cr2 files is the clear winner. I just can't see myself using Capture One anymore except for tethered shooting. I will use a dedicated librarian program and call it a day. As for printing pictures. I will leave that to the people that know what they are doing. I am a photographer, not a print technician.
Two days ago I had no idea what I was missing. I am thankful that Capture One's pricing encouraged me to look at the competition more seriously. I am very happy with what I learned and feel it will save me a lot of time and money moving forward. I hope this was of some use to someone.
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Hello Michael,
I can only agree with you. Thanks for the good summary.
C1 had its reason that it became one of the best raw developers. Many have switched because of the color fidelity, others like me because of the good catalog management.
Meanwhile, C1 slithers from unwanted features to update bugs to immature innovations, and users can only watch helplessly and communicate their annoyance here on the forum until they realize they need to look around for new options.
I have always worked with DxO Photolab and C1 at the same time. Each program has its advantages, Photolab its impressive perspective correction, C1 its good session- and catalog management. Together, the two programs complement each other very well, even if it's always a bit of a hassle to switch between them. Now the share of C1 is becoming less and less. With the Photomechanics PM6+ management program, C1 loses its last big advantage for me.
Since I'm not buying a new body at this time, I can use the remaining benefits of my old version of C1 as long as I like it.
It had been a nice prospect to have everything in one program, but when the annoyance of inadequacies becomes too great, it's better to go back to several specialized programs that know their craft best.
Greetings
Thomas
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Permanently deleted userTL; DR; Michael prefers another Raw converter.
So just use it. Sharing your life story here helps nobody.
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A lot of whining is going on. Dedicated software is not cheap and I don't have a problem with the current subscription rate, considering what I get for it.. All under one hood now, no ping-pong with other pieces of software you need to pay for as well.. Are there growing pains with the latest release, yes .. but they will prevail.
As the old saying goes "no pain. no gain"-3 -
@ USAntigoon. You can call it whining if you like that's fine with me. If you need the features that are unique to Capture One, the price works out for your workflow, or perhaps you simply enjoy working with Capture one more than other programs I would say the price is justified for you. It's a great product and I am glad that I own it if even just for teathed shooting alone. But I won't be upgrading.
What do you feel about the lack of lens support? Lens sharpness correction, Poor communication with the end-user about future lens support? The sub-par HDR in the initial release?
Is there something about the rendering of RAW files that makes you loyal to C1?
I am not complaining or whining when I say that I strongly prefer the results straight out of the box with another program. I would have not posted anything if I was not so shocked by the outcome of looking at what was out there. And I would still be using Capture One.
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@Thomas Schneider
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. It's nice to hear this from you. I honestly was so surprised with what I was seeing when comparing DxO exports (with only lens correction and lens sharpening enabled) compared side by side with what C1 was giving me. With all the hype around C1 I think I just assumed it was providing the best results. I took a brief look at DxO around a year ago when the last update came out and just found it to be missing too many things. But since then my outlook on RAW development has changed a fair bit.
Also thank you for reminding me about Photomechanic. I was trying to remember that just yesterday.
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@Keith R
I hear that you don't think my post has potential to help anyone. I hear you. I think it may very well help someone. My personal motivation was to share what I found out in one day's research. Perhaps save someone some time. And even better possibly help someone produce pictures they are happier with.
I think it makes sense that C1 does read what's going on in these forums. Having more people layout the hard numbers on cost may help the C1 community in the long run in terms of more competitive pricing. But I feel that is not likely.
As for my life story? It doesn't take me long to write that out. You found it entertaining enough to read ;)
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If you want to keep your costs as low as possible - which is certainly the situation with me - you need to research in more depth. I have used Capture One Pro for two decades, for a long time C1 being far and away the best RAW convertor though now obviously there are others snapping at its heels.
Anyway, on to costs. I have never gone with subscriptions. I dropped Photoshop after CS6 and don't even have it installed on any of my PC's any longer. When Adobe introduced subscriptions it looked like only a matter of time before charges would bump up. At present Photoshop + Lightroom UK is £9.98 per month including tax. My C1 update from 21 to 22 (which I wanted for HDR and for panoramas) was available at a 20% earlybird discount plus a further 10% if you searched and found extra offers on some photo-related websites and forums. So going 21 to 22 cost me just £143.10, equivalent to just £11.92 per month. Therefore C1 costs only c. 6 pence a day more than Adobe.
I switched to Affinity Photo on their offer a long time ago at a one-off cost of just £29.99 I then added Affinity Designer and Affinty Publisher at a total one-off of only £47.98
C1 has so much functionality that very seldom do I need to go to other apps.
I persevered with Dreamweaver CS6 for a while but then switched to Squarespace and that does cost £250 per year including taxes, but there are very significant advantages to be with Squarespace over and above simply how its used and what it costs.
The only Adobe app I currently use is the free Adobe Bridge which I find very useful for browsing and some complex re-sorting and renaming
Adobe gets very pricey once you need other apps such as Premier Pro and After Effects. I used Vegas Pro for many years but recently moved over to Davinci Resolve Studio 17. Vegas Pro is not cheap. Davinci's free version does everything most hobbyist video editors need. Its full-on "Studio" version is a one-off cost of only £250 including tax. The Studio version matters for me mainly because it offers greater functionality with high-end GPU's and it permits use of multiple extra monitors.
The best in-depth training with C1 is with Paul Reiffer via his Youtube channel. He goes into great detail and with lots of examples, and unlike some other trainers slowly enough that you can take it all in:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKDMi1iMPMijyZu8pqlVxng/videos?view=0&sort=ddHe also points out areas in which C1 is less than ideal
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Well crafted post..
These editing programs are getting more and more complex and indeed the business model of monthly/yearly subscriptions are here to stay.. That business model is also promoting a fierce competition which is good and we as consumers need to make the decisions which suit us the best..
Each hobby costs money. So about $200/year is small change compared to what camera equipment and lenses are costing these days...
As far as C1 tutorial material is concerned, I am very impressed with C1.. I do love the way David Grover is covering the basics and this is very important.. Paul on the other hand is indeed the field pro with hands on experience and he is not shy in sharing his opinions which he did very well in his recent deliveries..
The competition will go one and C1 will for sure correct and improve the current shortcomings ..So far I just enjoy what 22 has given me..1 -
Hey, Peter thanks for your reply.
What makes Capture one "C1 being far and away the best RAW convertor"? I know you also say that others are right behind it but what makes it so good in your opinion?
For value, you have a point about buying it only on sale. It helps.
The thing that cemented my decision to move away from C1 was the starting image. Obviously, there is a matter of taste involved here. It seems to me that to have a measurable totally unbias calculated result reduces it to colour accuracy and representation of dynamic range? There is more to creating a great conversion/development of a RAW file today I think in practical terms. We are not science labs lol.
DxO offers me a better starting point with their RAW development. My images come out of it undistorted, without fringing based on actual lens data, they are sharp edge to edge without being oversharpened in the middle of the frame. For the $50 ViewPoint add on you get a very effective (not right every time of course) automatic geometric correction. I know that I can simply turn on Deep Prime not ever adjusting anything and have the cleanest image that any publicly available program can offer. It adds perhaps a couple of stops to my camera. Capture One comes to me with a generic tool I can manually use to fudge up a distortion profile with because they have no interest in making profiles or licencing them from someone. Seriously? That is simply shit support. The geometric distortion tools are more basic and not automatable.
Capture One does not have a twenty-year background in lens and sensor studies. Another big bonus is DxO makes money working their website database. It is in their best interest to have good working relationships with all relevant lens and camera manufacturers. Not just Phase One. This is good for the end-user ongoing.
Deep Prime is a big deal if you ever shoot at high ISO. It beats Capture One's excellent noise reduction but also beats Neat Image, a stand-alone, very highly regarded program. I own it and can't see myself using it anymore either. Poorer results and it takes longer.
I think Thomas Schneider hit it on the head when he talked about working in DxO a lot of the time but having a version of C1 in your back pocket for some complicated edits, and possibly even the catalogue. Best of both worlds.
Perhaps DxO RAW and Capture One is the most obvious answer?
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@USAntigoon
Looking at the price that way does shift the perspective. But again it is just about the marketplace, what it offers you and your gear, and if that makes it worth the price for you. That's the bottom line.
I like the content for Capture One. I have not had to go looking for stuff for DxO because it is just very straightforward in comparison to C1. Any general "how to make a great edit" video would apply. DxO makes me want to watch a two-hour explanation of all the films in the film pack.
Capture One truly is a beast of a program. It is incredible in so many ways.
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