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DAM/image library functions still weak

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  • Jeff Talbert
    I agree, I wish they would put resources into making this better. When I Saw CO was jumping from 12 to 20 to start off a new decade, I was hoping for more than what 20 offers.

    I really like the static / scrolling tools feature, and noise reduction, which I always thought was better than Lightroom. One reason why I switched, on top of I like the controls and how CO makes the changes I am looking for, I was really hoping on some sort of improvement on dAM. Since upgrading to 20, I have spent hours re-working my photo catalogs and to try to organize them better so CO can handle them better. Something I probably should have done anyways, but this is one aspect of CO that is in ways behind Lightroom.

    I see one bug but have not had any real issues with it. I was using the beta and the would periodically crash, and knock on wood, it has not with this release. Each build got much more stable.

    Happy to see the new release and the new static tools feature is great. Makes looking for my adjustment tools much easier.
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  • Bernd Ott
    Did some more testing and trying. After attempting to display all images in my large test catalogue I had to use force quit after starring at the rotating beachball for way too long.
    The result: A damaged catalogue that can not be opened any more.

    My conclusion is again: Capture One has failed to update the DAM functionality of the software and I still wouldn't trust it on a large job over many days.

    Really wanted to be able to use it again. Right now I feel slightly cheated by having bought another expensive update without major problems being fixed.
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  • Lloyd Roseblade
    Yeah I agree. Coming from LR I have to say that CO's achilles heal is its DAM. It's very rudimentary and not particularly architected well under the covers. I'm considering using CO just as another round trip app for LR.
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  • mattcohen
    it just feels like they are trying to keep up with flashy editing features and have kicked DAM usability down the road. maybe because people with large libraries are a minority?

    just pointing it at a folder (130k) pictures for a new catalog in place on a fast ssd took 24 hours to import, and it will end up being well over 24 hours more to draw previews, all using a fraction of the resources in my 16" MBP.
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  • Bernd Ott
    mattcohen wrote:
    it just feels like they are trying to keep up with flashy editing features and have kicked DAM usability down the road. maybe because people with large libraries are a minority?

    just pointing it at a folder (130k) pictures for a new catalog in place on a fast ssd took 24 hours to import, and it will end up being well over 24 hours more to draw previews, all using a fraction of the resources in my 16" MBP.


    I keep testing I as I really WANT to use Capture for my larger jobs.
    Now I had to completely re-create the catalogue as I had to force quite Capture yesterday after I was starring at the rotating beachball way too long. As a result the catalogue was broken beyond repair.
    Makes me question the reliability once again of the entire system.

    Long story short: I let the catalogue import once again roughly 40k images and build previews - over night as it takes sooo long. And guess what - I got warnings on my 64GB!!! Mac that I am running out of memory soon.
    Adobe Lightroom handles more than 500000 images on the same computer without breaking into sweat...

    Sorry Phase: This is embarrassing. I keep logging the same problems and noticed in the forum that there are users having the same problems and years later it still hasn't been fixed. I am certainly not a big fan of Adobe and their customer service but at least they fix serious problems over time and often focus on improving the usability of their software.

    I would LOVE to hear from a representative of Phase here why this won't get addressed but so far all I hear is silence.
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  • Robert Farhi
    Hi all,

    Many people have already complained about DAM/catalog poor performances of Capture One. The best way to proceed is to move a feature request at Phase One staff (what I did, but the more the best), but it should be realised that it would need to completely recast their DAM. Hard job, indeed.
    Robert
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  • Bernd Ott
    tenmangu81 wrote:
    Hi all,

    Many people have already complained about DAM/catalog poor performances of Capture One. The best way to proceed is to move a feature request at Phase One staff (what I did, but the more the best), but it should be realised that it would need to completely recast their DAM. Hard job, indeed.
    Robert


    As mentioned: Started support cases with them multiple time and - nothing.

    But I agree: The more complain directly and send feature requests the better!

    The problem is Phase doesn't seem to feel the pressure. Maybe they haven't realised it might cost them actually money.
    I for once will NOT update next time if this isn't fixed. Tired of sending them money and then having to go back to Lightroom for large commercial jobs.
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  • Bernd Ott
    I just re-read an older thread I started

    https://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=27812
    (can someone tell me how to create an active link here???)

    It appears a year and a half later nothing has been done to improve things...
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  • Simon Knight
    Just wanted to add my name to the list of users unhappy with the DAM aspects of Capture One. I wasted days and days with version 12 working with a large catalog of 89,000 images. Importing images and building previews caused many many crashes. The end result was three days on the phone to Apple attempting to restore Spotlight on my mac. Their solution was a complete erase of my hard drive and clean install of the OS, all very Windows v3.11. Now, I can't prove if the OS problem was causing the C1 problems or if the C1 crashes caused the OS problems but spotlight was working before C1 started crashing.

    I paid blind for the upgrade to v20 in the hope that they would have improved the database but its still very very slow. For me it is at the point of being unusable. For example complex searches are both confusing to create and very slow to enter. Who on earth thought it a good idea to execute the new updated query after every keystroke when entering text? Its madness, taking 50 or more seconds to enter 6 characters into a field, arrrgh!

    I really like the raw editing but as a minimum I need to discover a method of using C1 with third party DAM applications and so far I have failed.

    Catches breath and has a strong cup of tea!

    best wishes
    Simon
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  • Keith Reeder
    mattcohen wrote:
    it just feels like they are trying to keep up with flashy editing features and have kicked DAM usability down the road. maybe because people with large libraries are a minority?

    You've almost answered your own question. DAM functionality is less important to most Capture One users (regardless of catalogue size - by definition, we're already managing our catalogues successfully) than quality of output.

    Oh - and it's weird to see a "Phase One Certified Professional" dismiss the image quality and usability improvements in Capture One 20 as "flashy editing features".

    It's not rocket science to conclude that they are what draw users in...
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  • Keith Reeder
    BerndInBerlin wrote:
    But I agree: The more complain directly and send feature requests the better!

    The fact that handfuls of people have been complaining about this for years and are still complaining about it, should tell you all you need to know about how important it is to most Capture One users...
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  • Robert Farhi
    Keith Reeder wrote:

    DAM functionality is less important to most Capture One users (regardless of catalogue size - by definition, we're already managing our catalogues successfully) than quality of output.


    For a long time, Capture One was targeted at professionals working on projects for clients. And the best way to manage projects is the session mode. Don't forget that the catalogue was introduced with version 8 (or 7 ?).
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  • Dave R
    And over on the Windows forum everyone thinks the DAM implementation on Mac is far superior to the Windows implementation. ☹️

    Dave
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  • Simon Knight
    Hi,

    over on the Windows forum everyone thinks the DAM implementation on Mac is far superior


    All I can say is pity the Windows users then.

    I'm one of those users who feels that the DAM should work so sorry if I am in a minority. However, that raises the interesting question of how are the majority of users managing tens of thousands of images ?

    Given that the DAM database is not up to scratch I would like to be able to use Capture One to edit small numbers of images selected in a third party application like the Finder. Ideally I want to leave my images stored by year which means that each year folder holds several thousand images. For example lets say folder named year_2018 holds six thousand images and I run a keyword search in Finder which returns thirty. How do I transfer just those thirty to Capture One for editing ?

    I don't think I can use a session as it will try and create previews of all six thousand images which takes a long time.

    best wishes

    Simon
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  • Bernd Ott
    Skids wrote:
    Hi,

    over on the Windows forum everyone thinks the DAM implementation on Mac is far superior


    All I can say is pity the Windows users then.

    I'm one of those users who feels that the DAM should work so sorry if I am in a minority. However, that raises the interesting question of how are the majority of users managing tens of thousands of images ?

    Given that the DAM database is not up to scratch I would like to be able to use Capture One to edit small numbers of images selected in a third party application like the Finder. Ideally I want to leave my images stored by year which means that each year folder holds several thousand images. For example lets say folder named year_2018 holds six thousand images and I run a keyword search in Finder which returns thirty. How do I transfer just those thirty to Capture One for editing ?

    I don't think I can use a session as it will try and create previews of all six thousand images which takes a long time.

    best wishes

    Simon


    Couldn't agree more.
    I don't care how it started. This is many years ago.
    On another thread I found some people with the same experiences. Crashes, unresponsive computer for many hours and corrupted catalogues. Sorry, this is BS. I have not seen another pro-app that brings my computer to a grinding halt in 2019.
    Functions implemented should work. Period. The limit should be the hardware not poor coding.

    The DAM function is not up to scratch when we have professional cameras that can produce 20 high res Raws per second.
    And it obviously can be done as Lightroom has proven.
    If Phase one doesn't think the DAM functions are important or simply is not able to fix it, why not go the way that other Raw-converters went. Get rid of that functionality and give me the option to use C1 as a plugin for Lightroom 😂
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  • Ian Leslie
    Skids wrote:
    Just wanted to add my name to the list of users unhappy with the DAM aspects of Capture One.


    Please add your voice to the official list - this is just a user help / discussion forum. New support tickets can be created here: https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
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  • Ian Leslie
    Keith Reeder wrote:
    BerndInBerlin wrote:
    But I agree: The more complain directly and send feature requests the better!

    The fact that handfuls of people have been complaining about this for years and are still complaining about it, should tell you all you need to know about how important it is to most Capture One users...


    OK that may be but that doesn't mean those of us that do / would like to use it that way don't have feature requests. We do. I don't think that because they have not been responsive in the past necessarily means they never will. We can hope.
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  • Marco Hyman
    Skids wrote:
    However, that raises the interesting question of how are the majority of users managing tens of thousands of images ?


    Lightroom?

    Skids wrote:

    For example lets say folder named year_2018 holds six thousand images and I run a keyword search in Finder which returns thirty. How do I transfer just those thirty to Capture One for editing ?


    Heh, I just learned how to do a keyword search in Finder. Thank you.

    Select all the images found. Right click and select "New Folder with Selection". Now import the new folder into Capture One. I haven't tried that, but it should work.
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  • Jerry C
    If you think the C1 DAM is lacking, you should try using electronic medical records. OK, I do think the DAM can be improved, but I think it would be better to be specific about what needs to be in it. Perhaps a thread on this forum with a list of opportunities for improvement?

    And about the Finder keyword search. It works, but I think you have to set the C1 preferences to attach the metadata. I can't use finder to search for the images after I stopped auto syncing sidecars. I'm sure there was a reason for my doing that, but I can't remember why. Sidecars might be useful, if I ever have to change software, like I did from Aperture to C1.

    Jerry C
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  • Bernd Ott
    NN635680879799322049UL wrote:
    If you think the C1 DAM is lacking, you should try using electronic medical records. OK, I do think the DAM can be improved, but I think it would be better to be specific about what needs to be in it. Perhaps a thread on this forum with a list of opportunities for improvement?

    And about the Finder keyword search. It works, but I think you have to set the C1 preferences to attach the metadata. I can't use finder to search for the images after I stopped auto syncing sidecars. I'm sure there was a reason for my doing that, but I can't remember why. Sidecars might be useful, if I ever have to change software, like I did from Aperture to C1.

    Jerry C


    Hi Jerry,
    thought I stated it in the beginning of the thread.

    The problem is: It is slow, extremely slow (operations with many files that take 5 min. in Lightroom will take an hour and a half in C1), it's buggy (it eats up memory that can cause a crash), basic operations like importing large numbers of files into a catalogue and building previews are taking many many hours, sometimes days whilst again the main competitor can do it in a couple of hours.
    It seems like the underlying database functionality is a pretty badly done job and it hasn't been fixed in many years now. I believe I have been filing support tickets and complaints since v8 on this issue.
    For now the implemented functionality should simply work properly. It should be limited only by the hardware and not by poor coding.
    There is room for improvement in the usability as well but for now, just fixing it would be great.
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  • Bernd Ott
    Oh wait, there is more. I just tried to import a bunch of TIFFs into my existing test catalogue with roughly 40k of images to see how Metatdata like the important IPTC core information is handled. Guess what: C1 crashed. Tried it multiple times in different ways - adding a folder and sync, import dialog. Same result. Instant crash.

    I could create a new empty session or a new empty catalogue and add them there though. So clearly another bug in the DAM/Database part of the program.

    And I could finally answer my question: Even though I am able to edit the IPCT data in Capture One, it is not written into the original file which kind of defies the purpose.

    Another thing that really needs fixing. Sometimes I don't want to re-export. Sometimes I just want to be able to have my perfectly in Photoshop retouched images within a catalogue next to the RAWs and just want to make a tiny change in the copyright information. A DAM that doesn't allow me to make Metadata changes is pretty pointless. Especially if it pretends to be able to do so.
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  • Simon Knight
    I feel your pain.

    I'm running a test to see if v20 can export 20 thousand images to a new catalog, v12 could not. This process was started at 9:09 and has been running for 50 minutes, the fans are running and C1 reports 23 mins to go. The same size export from lightroom took 1 minute 50 seconds.

    It quite instructive that we are both running tests, uncertain if C1 is capable of doing something it should or perhaps pretty certain that it is not.

    BerndInBerlin wrote:
    I just tried to import a bunch of TIFFs
    . Are you aware that C1 is quite picky over the type of TIFF it will import? I had a number that were monochrome only created by VueScan and there was a suspicion that these files were causing C1 problems.

    Personally I am very near the point where I stop using Capture One. Simply the DAM aspects do not meet my needs and there is no easy way to use Capture One as a standalone raw processor.

    Also I am questioning the sense in managing my images in a proprietary database. I am coming to the conclusion that all completed edits should be saved as high quality jpegs (or Tiffs) and that while I will use NeoFinder as my DAM my fall back position will be to use the Finder in the event that NeoFinder becomes unavailable.

    Simon

    P.S. The test just completed in one hour nine minutes.
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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter
    Skids wrote:

    I'm running a test to see if v20 can export 20 thousand images to a new catalog, v12 could not. This process was started at 9:09 and has been running for 50 minutes, the fans are running and C1 reports 23 mins to go. The same size export from lightroom took 1 minute 50 seconds.

    I wonder whether the difference may be to do with when and how each app creates previews. I don't use Lightroom, but I understand that by default it only creates minimal previews (in other words the thumbnails you see in grid view) and creates standard previews on the fly as needed. (Although there is a preference to change that I think.) If by contrast Capture One is creating its previews as part of the process of creating the new catalog, you'd expect that to take longer.

    Just a theory as to a possible reason for the difference.

    Ian
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  • Bernd Ott
    I'm running a test to see if v20 can export 20 thousand images to a new catalog, v12 could not. This process was started at 9:09 and has been running for 50 minutes, the fans are running and C1 reports 23 mins to go. The same size export from lightroom took 1 minute 50 seconds.

    It quite instructive that we are both running tests, uncertain if C1 is capable of doing something it should or perhaps pretty certain that it is not.


    Just created a test catalogue with LR with the same files I used for capture.
    LR imported 40000 files in 6 min 25 seconds.
    Previews were done in 21 minutes.

    Capture One needed for import and Preview creation of the same files over night.
    By the time I saw it in the morning my computer (64GB RAM) gave me a warning that it is running out of memory. Had to restart Capture to fix it.

    I am with Simon on this.
    I have wasted another two days testing a software that has known issues for many years and won't deliver.
    Capture One is now banned for good from my commercial jobs. My digital operator hates me for it. Most of these guys, at least in Europe, are trained on C1. But Capture is just not reliable and fast enough for the amount of data we produce.
    And if Lightroom ever corrupts a catalogue (which hasn't happened in years) I can rebuild it in less than an hour. With Capture I can not continue to work for a day.
    On top of that: LR has good support for DNGs. I can convert large Sony RAWs into smaller lossless DNGs. These can be rated and viewed in other applications like bridge or photo mechanic. Not possible with Capture.

    Sorry, by now I feel I am venting. But Capture One is NOT the professional software it pretends to be. By now it has what I need (supporting my Sony A7R IV and producing very nice files when I have the time and interest to produce something for perfect aesthetics) so no need to upgrade it any more for the foreseeable future.
    I will not give Phase One any more money until I have it confirmed Capture One can handle a professional workload.
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  • Simon Knight
    Ian3 wrote:
    I wonder whether the difference may be to do with when and how each app creates previews.


    Good idea except there is no need to re-create any previews. All the data is within the source database. All the export has to do is select the records and write them into a new database. The previews will be stored either as Binary Large Objects (BLOBs) or as discrete image files that the data points to. Either way the export action should just be a series of file copies, no data processing is required as long as the primary keys are unique. It should be possible to complete the export with the source files "offline" but it is not.

    However, you may be correct and C1 may be recreating the previews, after all it is doing something for hours..........

    Simon
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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter
    Skids wrote:
    Ian3 wrote:
    I wonder whether the difference may be to do with when and how each app creates previews.


    Good idea except there is no need to re-create any previews. All the data is within the source database. All the export has to do is select the records and write them into a new database. The previews will be stored either as Binary Large Objects (BLOBs) or as discrete image files that the data points to. Either way the export action should just be a series of file copies, no data processing is required as long as the primary keys are unique. It should be possible to complete the export with the source files "offline" but it is not.

    However, you may be correct and C1 may be recreating the previews, after all it is doing something for hours..........

    Simon

    Also, there is the possibility, I suppose, that between the previews being created for the source catalog and their being created for the new catalog, you may have changed your preferences for preview size, so remaking them in case that had happened might make some sense. Capture One also recreates previews rather than copying them over when you import a session, or images from a session, into a catalog.

    Ian
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  • Ian Leslie
    BerndInBerlin wrote:

    Another thing that really needs fixing. Sometimes I don't want to re-export. Sometimes I just want to be able to have my perfectly in Photoshop retouched images within a catalogue next to the RAWs and just want to make a tiny change in the copyright information. A DAM that doesn't allow me to make Metadata changes is pretty pointless. Especially if it pretends to be able to do so.


    While C1 will not change RAW files it will update side car files that other applications will work with. For a catalogue, however you have to change your preference settings to do this by automatically. By default it will just update the database but you can get it to either automatically or on your request update the files on disk.
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  • Bernd Ott
    IanL wrote:
    BerndInBerlin wrote:

    Another thing that really needs fixing. Sometimes I don't want to re-export. Sometimes I just want to be able to have my perfectly in Photoshop retouched images within a catalogue next to the RAWs and just want to make a tiny change in the copyright information. A DAM that doesn't allow me to make Metadata changes is pretty pointless. Especially if it pretends to be able to do so.


    While C1 will not change RAW files it will update side car files that other applications will work with. For a catalogue, however you have to change your preference settings to do this by automatically. By default it will just update the database but you can get it to either automatically or on your request update the files on disk.


    Thanks for your input. I knew that.
    Sidecar xmp files make perfectly good sense with generic RAW formats by different camera manufacturers. But TIFFs, PSDs and whatever else and especially DNGs have standardised headers to include that information and make transfer between devices and apps easier and more seamless. Any other image processing software I am aware of works that way.
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  • gullevek
    The DAM in C1 v20 is still bad. Very bad. The only way I could use it is by splitting data out into years or projects. And hope that not too many files are in there. Oh please don't have any files on a NAS because then you will be in beachball heaven. Lightroom, as subpar their RAW convert is in my opinion, their DAM is rock solid. I have all my RAW files in LR either on local SSD or on the NAS and LR starts quick and works perfectly.

    It is truly sad the a so called professional software for that price can't get the DAM working. I really hope they will put double the effort into this for the next very expensive release.
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  • Bernd Ott
    gullevek wrote:
    The DAM in C1 v20 is still bad. Very bad. The only way I could use it is by splitting data out into years or projects. And hope that not too many files are in there. Oh please don't have any files on a NAS because then you will be in beachball heaven. Lightroom, as subpar their RAW convert is in my opinion, their DAM is rock solid. I have all my RAW files in LR either on local SSD or on the NAS and LR starts quick and works perfectly.

    It is truly sad the a so called professional software for that price can't get the DAM working. I really hope they will put double the effort into this for the next very expensive release.


    Hi, you have pretty much the same experience as me.
    My archive lives on a NAS as well connected via 10g and the actual LR catalogue lives on a very fast local SSD Raid. LR handles my entire archive of the last few years this way with way over 500k images including extremely large Master TIFFs. I can't even imagine attempting this with Capture One.
    I can easily rename, reorganise, move files in and out folders, create folders,...all the things a DAM should be able to do. And fast I might add.
    Enough C1 bashing. Great RAW converter but they really need to up their game and completely re-write the DAM part of the software.
    Have you filed a request already as well? I guess the more Phase hears about the more they care.
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