Zum Hauptinhalt gehen

⚠️ Please note that this topic or post has been archived. The information contained here may no longer be accurate or up-to-date. ⚠️

Activate tool/brush corresponding to layer mask

Jean Ayotte

When I come back to an image and want to refine the mask of a layer, I often end up cycling through brushes to find which one corresponds to the current mask. I would be great to have this corresponding brush automatically selected when one clicks on a layer in the layers tool. Or, at least, have a way to know which is the current masking brush for the layer, maybe through some kind of highlighting in the layers tool, or by adding the icon of the current brush beside the Adjustement layer icon in the palette. (For me, it would typically be Draw, Linear Gradient or Radial Gradient.)

1

Kommentare

12 Kommentare

Datum Stimmen
  • Class A
    • Bearbeitet

    It used to be the case that C1 only had one (universal) brush. The same brush tool worked on adjustment-, heal-, and clone layers. This made perfect sense and allowed not only to use one keyboard shortcut only, but to efficiently alternate between positive brushing and negative brushing (erasing) using only two keys.

    Unfortunately, a while ago a decision was made to "simplify" matters by having three different brush tools instead of one, even though all brush types essentially work the same way. I believe this was borne out of the idea of making it easier to create a layer of a certain kind as having three different brush tools allowed automatically creating the right layer type upon the first use of the brush.

    Sadly, this design has drawbacks.

    Note that you can get somewhat close to having your request realised by always selecting some brush (doesn't matter which one) first and only then select the layer you want to work on. In this case, C1 assumes that you will want to use the brush that fits the layer type and will automatically change the brush tool selection for you.

    This (somewhat helpful) behaviour was added after the initial design was criticised for automatically changing the layer when the brush tool and the layer type didn't match, even when the last user action was to explicitly change the layer selection.

    While the current behaviour is an improvement on the very first "three brush tools" design, it still is not as good as the one "universal brush" approach we had before.

    To this day, I don't understand why C1 cannot offer the current "three brush tools" approach with one more universal brush added. That would make everyone happy.

    FWIW, I don't think that radial and linear masks should be treated as "brushes" as well and I don't see how auto-selecting these mask creation tools would work well (as one may want to add brush strokes to an already existing linear mask). 

    1
  • BeO
    • Bearbeitet
    Top Commenter

    I fully agree with ClassA.

    I am usually quite subtle in the choice of my words (with a few intended or unintended exceptions), but I'll break this principle here: The brush tools in combination with layers,as it is implemented today is just crap.

    I still struggle often to do the correct action, it is overcomplicated, and the automatism which usually should help a user is counterproductive in many situations, and because I don't know when I make a mistake I tend to be more cautious, which slows me down and detracts me from the image and image editing. The old behavior was simple and straight-forward, much more fool-proof (so suited me fool much better) ...

    1
  • FirstName LastName

    Hello all three of you. For the next few days, I am in a position to try out a prototype of any kinds of changes such as this, to see how useful it can be.
    I have been reading through your posts about these brush selection things, and for the most part I am struggling to find the exact issue or solution proposition that you have on the current version of CO.

    1. For this post specifically:
    Is it correct that you are looking for the same functionality that is currently in place when you select e.g a Healing layer, and the brush will become a heal brush, likewise with with clone and regular local adjustment layer.
    So simply adding the same distinguishing within a regular adjustment layer to toggle between linear, radial, regular brush?
    (exactly the same behavior as when using style brushes, that it remembers the style of the universal style brush and changes between the layers)

    2. For some of the other posts, e.g Temporary eraser while holding a key.
    First of all, what key would you suggest makes this worthwhile?
    Control? That is used to drag the mask
    Alt? That is used to set source point for heal/clone, and alt - right is quick adjust
    Shift? That is used for snapping (drawing lines)
    Tab? Generally used to change the focused element on windows
    Caps lock? No
    Space? Panning

    3. A shortcut to select the appropriate cursor tool for the layer.
    - Is that still a request given the automatic selections mentioned above?
    - Have you considered that it could complicate things with regular brush / magic brush / eraser - if it is not obvious to the user which will be selected, I believe that would defeat the purpose.
    Let me know if you have a strong opinion on a direct improvement to the current version including the thought of drawbacks.

    1
  • Class A
    • Bearbeitet

    Hi FirstName LastName,

    first of all, thanks a lot for involving us.
    Much appreciated!

    My answers to your questions are as follows:

    1. ...
    Is it correct that you are looking for the same functionality that is currently in place when you select e.g a Healing layer, and the brush will become a heal brush, likewise with with clone and regular local adjustment layer.

    Personally, I am not advocating for an approach that treats brushes (clone-, heal-, and adjustment-brush) uniformly with radial- and linear gradients. In my view, these three categories are sufficiently different to warrant their own tool metaphor (one could contemplate homogenising radial- and linear gradients, but let's not go there here in this thread). Imaging the use case of wanting to add some manual brushing to a layer that contains a linear or radial gradient already. This would only work if one retained overriding tool selections (that engage a certain brush type or gradient tool regardless of the layer type) next to a "universal" tool that always adapts. While this could work, it seems elaborate and personally, I'd rather have a universal brush only (which defaults to "adjustment brush" in case the type is not clear from the layer type).

    Note that what you write "...the brush will become a heal brush..." is not entirely true and this is my major gripe with the current approach and the reason why I converted from an avid ambassador for C1 (I told everyone how good C1 is, regardless of whether they wanted to hear it or not) to someone who cautions people about the fact that apparently some people at C1 do not understand UI ergonomics (see the "universal brush" issue, the recent exporter dialogue back and forth, the misplaced add- and delete layer icons, etc.; I could go on).

    While it is true that if you select any brush first (standard shortcuts are "Q", "S", and "B") and then the layer, the brush will automatically change to the one needed for the layer, regardless of the previous tool choice. This is good.

    However, if you select the layer first and then the brush (e.g., via "Q", "S", or "B"), the moment you start brushing, the layer selection automatically changes. If a layer of the type corresponding to the brush selection already exists then C1 will select the most recent layer of that type; otherwise C1 will create a layer. In any event, the current layer selection will be lost. This is bad.

    First of all, I maintain that it is generally bad if the ordering of user actions matters. One should not be forced to maintain a certain ordering of actions just because C1 will behave in an undesirable manner, if one does not have the awareness to choose the right ordering. I appreciate that often the ordering of user actions matters (although this is far less often the case in a parametric editor like C1), but it really should not matter whether one first selects what to work on and then the tool, or vice versa.

    Second, sometimes the selection is already correct, i.e., no explicit layer selection is necessary and then one is forced to pick the right brush tool ("Q", "S", or "B") to avoid C1 changing the layer selection. I've experimented with a workaround that uses a macro that always temporarily changes the layer selection downwards and then upwards again after selecting a brush (which one does not matter anymore, because after the layer selection changes, C1 will pick the appropriate one for the layer to be worked on) but that results in a jarring experience with C1 struggling to refresh everything in a timely manner (in particular, if computation intensive luminosity masks are involved).

    Third, a common case when the layer selection is already correct is the case when one alternates between positive brushing (adding to a mask; I view heal and clone strokes as adding to heal- and clone-masks) and negative brushing (using the eraser brush). See my answer to your second question below.

    Note that fulfilling the "universal brush" request could be trivially achieved by just adding another shortcut that selects a fourth brush type that always adapts to the currently selected layer. AFAIC, such a universal/adaptive brush would not have to be selectable via an icon, but my guess is that people would use it, if it were available.

    I maintain that the current approach is confounding layer creation and tool selection and that it would have been better to leave the brush metaphor alone and instead just add shortcuts/icons for creating a layer (one of "clone", "heal" or "adjustment") and selecting the (universal) brush tool at the same time. The idea to jump to the most recent version of a layer type should not have been pursued at all since it only works for people who use very few layers and majorly gets in the way of people who want to target specific layers to tweak their masks. However, all that said, AFAIC, the confused system that is in place right now could be kept and by adding a fourth (universal) brush everyone could be made happy. 

    Please let me know if I failed to get anything across clearly. I would much, much appreciate if you could see where I am coming from.

     

    2. For some of the other posts, e.g Temporary eraser while holding a key.
    First of all, what key would you suggest makes this worthwhile?

    Since all modifier keys are in use already, I believe there is a need for customisation in order to avoid upsetting some people.

    If it were me, I'd use:
    Shift: linear interpolation (current assignment)
    Alt: temporarily engage eraser brush (mimicking Photoshop)
    Ctrl: set source point for healing/cloning.
    Shift+Ctrl: drag the mask

    Since other people will have different preferences, I believe the modifier keys should be user-assignable. If this is deemed too complicated, one could consider using modifier keys with a right-click, e.g., Ctrl-right-click could drag the mask.

    Note, however, that if a universal brush were to be brought back then this would greatly diminish the need for a "temporary eraser brush" feature, as one would only be dealing with two keys (e.g., "B", and "E") to toggle between positive and negative brushing.

    Note that that David Grover used to recommend using "B" and "E" for toggling between the regular and eraser brush:

    "You can actually flip the Wacom pen upside down to automatically choose the eraser, but I actually find it faster to simply hit ‘e’ on the keyboard to select that option and then ‘b’ to return to brush."

    Now, with C1's current system, the advice would have to read

    "You can actually flip the Wacom pen upside down to automatically choose the eraser, but I actually find it faster to simply hit ‘e’ on the keyboard to select that option and then press ‘b’ or 'q' or 's', depending on the layer I'm working on, to return to brush."

    If you think that sounds significantly less appealing - in particular for those who use consoles where buttons are limited and assigning "B" and "E" to two console buttons is fine but assigning "B", "Q", "S", and "E" to console buttons is not feasible -- I agree.

    Further note that Paul Steuneberg (the Image Alchemist) also thought that it is expected that one would frequently change between brushing and erasing:

    "When I create a Mask, I often switch between the Brush and Eraser before I am satisfied with the result. I almost always use the keyboard shortcuts for that, ‘b’ and ‘e’ respectively."

    With C1's current system, Paul would have to write:

    "When I create a Mask, I often switch between the Brush and Eraser before I am satisfied with the result. I almost always use the keyboard shortcuts for that, ‘b’, 'q', 's', and ‘e’ respectively, making sure that I keep track in my head what layer type I'm working on, matching 'b', 'q', 's' accordingly, in order to avoid Capture One automatically changing the layer selection for me."

    I hope you agree that with a universal brush in place, toggling between brushing and erasing would be feasible as it only involved two keys. In previous versions of C1 one could even assign the shortcuts such that only one key (say "B" was used, and the other functionality was activated by pressing a modifier key, say "Alt" by assigning the keyboard shortcuts "B" and "Alt-B" to brushing and erasing respectively). This allowed me to use only one console button for both brushing and erasing as I simply pressed a modifier button on the console at the same time, if I wanted to select the eraser brush. This is another argument for making the modifier mapping user-definable, as some people may want to use "Ctrl-Alt" to select linear interpolation in order to free up "Alt" on its own for the above approach.

     

    3. A shortcut to select the appropriate cursor tool for the layer.
    - Is that still a request given the automatic selections mentioned above?

    For me personally, that is the main point. A way to temporarily engage the eraser brush would be nice, but is not really needed, if we could go back to using two keys for brushing/erasing only. I don't support general automatic selections for the reasons I outlined in the beginning.

     

    - Have you considered that it could complicate things with regular brush / magic brush / eraser - if it is not obvious to the user which will be selected, I believe that would defeat the purpose.

    AFAIC, the magic brush is an adjustment brush with some added mask creation automation. It is very similar to an adjustment brush with "automasking" activated. I do not think it would be useful to consider three different tools - manual adjustment brush, adjustment brush with automasking (edge-based mask expansion), adjustment brush with mask expansion based on pixel similarities (aka "magic brush") - and assume the user would want any of the mask expansion approaches to be selected automatically.

    There is no "magic brush" layer type, so the magic brush should never be automatically selected. If a user wants to make use of any mask expansion approach -- I'm sure there will be more in the future -- they should select it afterwards. In all cases, the underlying brush is the adjustment brush (as there is no "magic brush" mode for healing or cloning).

     

    Let me know if you have a strong opinion on a direct improvement to the current version including the thought of drawbacks.

    I have very strong opinions on the matters surrounding brush selection. I won't upgrade to C1 22 because I don't need HDR, panorama stitching, and auto-rotation. However, if the brush selection were fixed, I'd upgrade in a heartbeat. Moreover, I'd go back to being very enthusiastic about C1 again and start helping again to spread the word about how good it is. The fact that the modal exporter dialogue was addressed after community feedback is very encouraging but to this day the setback by the new brush selection system (introduced with C1 20) is impacting on my productivity and my enjoyment of C1. The fact that a simple fix has not been implemented even though it would only have made some people very happy and no one unhappy, makes me question C1's future.

    If you have any questions, I'd very much appreciate if you could get into touch with me/us again. I'd be more than happy to try and explain in different ways why I am convinced that C1's current approach is worse than it was and there is absolutely no need to continue that way since a solution (simply adding a fourth adaptive brush type) exists that would not impinge on anyone's workflow (unlike the change introduced in Build 13.1.0162 which does, to this day, negatively impinge on some people's workflows).

    0
  • Jean Ayotte

    Hello FirstName LastName,

    For my part, here are my answers:

    1. For this post specifically:
    Is it correct that you are looking for the same functionality that is currently in place when you select e.g a Healing layer, and the brush will become a heal brush, likewise with with clone and regular local adjustment layer.
    So simply adding the same distinguishing within a regular adjustment layer to toggle between linear, radial, regular brush?
    (exactly the same behavior as when using style brushes, that it remembers the style of the universal style brush and changes between the layers)

    This is exactly what I was thinking about. This way, I would no longer inadvertently modify the type of mask applied to a layer. After selecting the layer, I could still then change the brush on purpose. Next time I would select the layer, this last mask-defining brush would be automatically selected.

    2. For some of the other posts, e.g Temporary eraser while holding a key.
    First of all, what key would you suggest makes this worthwhile?

    That would be a good idea when using the regular brush. The temporary eraser would be of the same size, hardness, opacity and flow of the brush. It would be quite faster when painting a mask than to have to select the eraser brush and set every single of its parameters. The alt/option key could be used (without removing its use for the source point for heal/clone, the context being different).

    3. A shortcut to select the appropriate cursor tool for the layer.

    I don't see the need for it.

    Thanks for your attentive consideration of my request!

     

    0
  • Class A
    • Bearbeitet

    @Jean Ayotte

    I respect that you have different goals/priorities, but please allow me to comment on a few things you said:

    After selecting the layer, I could still then change the brush on purpose.

    That would introduce an ordering dependency which I argued against. It would make a difference whether one would select a brush first and then the layer or vice versa.

    Perhaps there could be an option in the preferences which would allow users to specify that selecting a layer should automatically choose the tool appropriate for that layer? If the latter (i.e., what you seem to be proposing) were the standard approach, with no means to opt out, then in my view it would interfere too much with workflows which do not align with auto-selection of tools.

    The temporary eraser would be of the same size, hardness, opacity and flow of the brush.

    You can achieve the same effect already by linking the eraser brush parameters to the normal brush parameters (-> tick box in the brush parameter dialogue).

    In my view temporarily engaging the eraser brush should invoke the eraser brush as if it had been selected via the respective icon or via the keyboard shortcut. Some people may prefer to always use a smaller eraser brush and a bigger normal brush. The functionality you described certainly makes sense, but could be achieved by linking the brush parameters with each other (using the existing "linking" option).

    The alt/option key could be used (without removing its use for the source point for heal/clone, the context being different).

    This would imply that temporarily engaging an "eraser mode" would not be possible when working on heal/clone layers. The eraser brush works on all three different layer types -- it is a "universal" eraser brush -- and in my view the same user interaction (e.g. pressing the "Alt" key) should always have the same effect, regardless of the layer type.

    Again, it is not my intention to argue against your preferences, I'm just trying to point out issues that perhaps you yourself would agree should be avoided.

     

     

     

     

    0
  • FirstName LastName

    @Jean Ayotte
    Thanks for your feedback! I agree especially on 1. - that it would make sense to automatically select the gradient cursortools, now that similar is done for the other parts :)

    And sorry to include a very extensive discussion on your post, the following is a reply to Class A on the universal brush mentioned across different posts.

    0
  • FirstName LastName

    @Class A

    Hi, thanks for the details! I'm starting to see what you mean, although for your first and second arguments, I don't see the issue.

    "If you select the layer first and then the brush (e.g., via "Q", "S", or "B"), the moment you start brushing, the layer selection automatically changes.
    If a layer of the type corresponding to the brush selection already exists then C1 will select the most recent layer of that type; otherwise C1 will create a layer.
    In any event, the current layer selection will be lost. This is bad"

    So what you're saying is for example:
    You created or selected a regular layer, and then after CO helped you by selecting a valid brush selection to match the layer,
    then now you manually chose a heal or clone tool (as a user fault), and now you want the selected brush to work on the layer you selected as if you had not picked it, instead of jumping to a valid place for this tool.
    - I think a lot of people would disagree with that, and want their most recent action to matter. I'd assume most people want to use the equivalent to their most recent manual action - whether it's the tool they selected or the layer, and the one who decided this probably had the same idea.
    I think it's nice that it changes layer when heal brushing on a regular layer, as I always want to do the specific action for the cursor tool that I just picked, it also helps me avoid creating layers manually.
    definitely better than a popup saying I picked the wrong brush.

    "it is generally bad if the ordering of user actions matters" .. "undesirable manner if not chosing the right order"
    I don't think its an issue of which order something is done at, I would simply not do an incorrect action as the most recent, and expect the previous action to prevail instead.

    As in this case, you could simply click the layer and don't even touch any of the brush keys, neither before or after.
    The same goes for "Second, sometimes the selection is already correct, i.e., no explicit layer selection is necessary and then one is forced to pick the right brush tool ("Q", "S", or "B") to avoid C1 changing the layer selection"
    if the brush selection is already correct, then the solution would just be to not select an incorrect layer to brush on. There are icons on the layers as well to help avoid this, showing whether they are adjustment,heal or clone

    So for those points I really don't find it an issue,
    However! When you involve the eraser, then I do see that it can be annoying.
    When the eraser is selected and you change layer, then the eraser will remain active. So to add, the user now has to select the appropriate brush, same with going back from eraser on the same layer. In these cases,
    I see how it could be nicer to have just B and E.
    I think some arguments were made back then about it being good to have different brush settings (mostly size) for regular brushing versus healing, as well as keeping the settings menu simpler by not showing unnecessary settings.

    As for a possible solution, what do you think about this exactly:
    An "universal" brush, with its own size,hardness,opacity,flow settings,
    -well then unfortunately it would probably need a few more, unnecessary settings presented to the user (e.g displaying arrows for regular layer brushing, or auto mask for healing brush which would confuse users of why it doesnt work)

    But if that's solved, then CO could:
    Still keeping the magic brush seperate,
    - but then if the magic brush was used recently on the layer, that would be annoying for people if it wasn't automatically selected again.

    -There might also be quite some other downsides that I did not think of yet.

    I really like your comparison between the magic brush and the auto mask option in the regular brush tool. I actually think it would have been better as that, an option in the regular brush tool, that would also help making this universal.
    And thanks for providing a suggestion for a shortcut replacement, in this case I would question the wonderful Ctrl key not being used at all for the most used layer (regular) - well apart from being part of a combination.
    But it's definitely not a bad suggestion!

    Ps. Don't mistake this discussion with any promises or actions, but it is good to know your thoughts! :)

    0
  • Class A
    • Bearbeitet

    @FirstName LastName

    Thanks heaps for getting back to me.

    I'm starting to see what you mean, although for your first and second arguments, I don't see the issue.

    That's because there is a misunderstanding. Please allow me to clarify.

    So what you're saying is for example:
    You created or selected a regular layer, and then after CO helped you by selecting a valid brush selection to match the layer,
    then now you manually chose a heal or clone tool (as a user fault), and now you want the selected brush to work on the layer you selected as if you had not picked it, instead of jumping to a valid place for this tool.

    No, that's not want I suggested/want.

    A layer can only support one type of brush. It is unreasonable to expect a single layer to support multiple brush types.

    I don't want to manually chose any particular brush tool either.

    I want to be able to

    1. select a layer.
    2. select "brushing in general" (i.e. not a specific brush tool).
    3. be able to manipulate the mask of the layer, using the brush tool that matches the layer type. So, for instance, if the layer is a "healing"-layer then action 2. above should select the healing brush. If the layer type is "adjustment"-layer, action 2 above should select the regular adjustment brush, etc.

    In other words, there is no fourth brush tool, there is only a way to activate one of the existing brush tools that fits the selected layer.

    This is not to be confused with a "select whatever tool fits the current layer selection"-feature (i.e., including the automatic selection of the radial gradient tool), though. The action I'm after must simply select "brushing" (without going into detail which particular brush tool will be used) as it needs to work, even when I change the layer selection afterwards.

    So both of the following need to work, assuming "U" selects "brushing in general", i.e., without explicitly selecting one of the brush tools:

    1. press "U" and then select a layer. Result: Allow the user to modify the mask of the currently selected layer (using the appropriate brush tool which depends on the type of the currently selected layer).
    2. select a layer and then press "U". Result: Allow the user to modify the mask of the currently selected layer (using the appropriate brush tool which depends on the type of the currently selected layer).

    As you can see, in both cases the action is the same, making it irrelevant in which order the user indicates that they want to work on the the mask of some layer (using the brush tool that fits the layer).

     

    - I think a lot of people would disagree with that [what you described before], and want their most recent action to matter.

    I believe we agree.

    I hope my latest explanation makes it clear that I did not request the behaviour you criticised. It is really just about not being forced to tell C1 which of "adjustment"-, "clone"-, or "heal"-brush to use, if there is one valid choice only.

    I'm OK with other users having a way to explicitly choosing a certain brush tool (through "Q", "S", or "B") and then C1 changing the layer selection as needed (or creating a new layer). I just want a way to tell C1 "use whatever brush tool is necessary for the current layer selection".

     

    The same goes for "Second, sometimes the selection is already correct, i.e., no explicit layer selection is necessary and then one is forced to pick the right brush tool ("Q", "S", or "B") to avoid C1 changing the layer selection"
    if the brush selection is already correct, then the solution would just be to not select an incorrect layer to brush on.

    You are discussing another case. I wrote about the layer selection being correct already and you are writing about the brush selection being correct already.

    For the first case, i.e., you want to work on the mask of a layer and the layer you want to work on is already selected, it should be possible to simply press one key (say "U", or click on a respective icon, although the latter is not important to me) to prompt C1 into choosing whatever brush type is needed to work on the mask of the specific layer. Any user's intent is really just to use the regular brush if it is an adjustment layer, use the heal brush if it is a heal layer, or use the clone brush if it is a clone layer. However, instead of C1 automatically choosing the only brush tool type that makes sense, the user has to spell it out for C1 by choosing between "B","Q", or "S". I'm saying choosing one and the same action (e.g., pressing "U") should be sufficient in all those cases. This was the case before the revamping of the brush selection system.

    The second case, i.e., the one you describe as

    ...if the brush selection is already correct, then the solution would just be to not select an incorrect layer to brush on.

    does not really apply to the idea of "brushing in general". If your intention is to work on the mask of any layer, there is no correct concrete brush selection. Any concrete choice would indeed be invalidated by selecting a layer whose type does not match the currently selected brush tool, but you are not making a concrete choice.

    The idea is to first say "I want to work on the mask of a layer using the brush metaphor" and then be able to select any layer without it being deemed to be "incorrect". Note that C1 already implements this! If you choose any brush (through "B", "Q", or "S") and then select the layer, C1 will automatically correct your brush tool choice to one that makes sense for the selected layer. As long as one first selects "brushing" and then the layer to work on, it does not matter whether one presses "B", "Q" or "S" first; in other words a single shortcut would suffice in this case.

    The point is that a single shortcut should always suffice in order to specify that one wants to work on a layer's mask using the brushing metaphor. There might be other shortcuts that create layers or jump to a certain layer type (i.e., one could retain the current "B", "Q", and "S" functionality) but there should be a way to say "don't change the layer selection, just let me work on the layer mask with the brush tool that fits the layer type".

     

    So for those points I really don't find it an issue,

    I hope I was able to change your mind.

    Note that the use case you acknowledge -- temporarily using the eraser brush -- is just a special case of having a correct layer selection already. If you appreciate my arguments for whenever the eraser is involved, you should appreciate them for whenever you already have the layer you want to work on selected and just want to work on its mask. Whether you are doing that because you just erased part of the layer's mask or not, should not matter.

     

    So to add, the user now has to select the appropriate brush, same with going back from eraser on the same layer. In these cases,
    I see how it could be nicer to have just B and E.

    Exactly.

    Imagine, for some reason, we had different eraser brush types as well. Then it would be a matter of always picking the right pair of keys out of a selection of six.

     

    I think some arguments were made back then about it being good to have different brush settings (mostly size) for regular brushing versus healing, as well as keeping the settings menu simpler by not showing unnecessary settings.

    These are not arguments that apply to my suggestion.

    I'm not proposing a fourth brush tool that has its own settings. I'm just proposing a way to make C1 choose one of the existing brush tools that fits the current layer selection. As a result, brush parameters could be different for regular brushing versus heal brushing, etc. Also, menus would only show settings that are relevant to the brush type currently being used. Note that all this worked in C1 versions 1-19.

    It is just about relieving the user to choose between "B", "Q", and "S", by allowing the user to use "U" and then have C1 figure out which of "B", "Q" or "S" is appropriate for the current layer selection.

     

    As for a possible solution, what do you think about this exactly:
    An "universal" brush, with its own size,hardness,opacity,flow settings,

    That's not what I'm proposing.

    -well then unfortunately it would probably need a few more, unnecessary settings presented to the user (e.g displaying arrows for regular layer brushing, or auto mask for healing brush which would confuse users of why it doesnt work)

    This disadvantage does not apply to my suggestion, since users would use the same set of brush tools as before, they just would not have to spell out which C1 should be using for a given layer if all they want is to work on the mask of a layer using a brush metaphor.

     

    - but then if the magic brush was used recently on the layer, that would be annoying for people if it wasn't automatically selected again.

    I strongly suggest to separate two requests:

    1. automatically selecting the tool that fits a layer or that was last used on a layer, versus
    2. allowing the user to indicate the wish to work on a layer mask using a brush metaphor without having to specify what kind of brush type to use for that (as C1 can figure it out, depending on the layer selection; with alternative shortcuts/actions existing if users want to create layers or change the layer selection at the same time).

    This thread was originally about 1. The suggestion appears to make sense but has its challenges and those challenges should not be confused with any challenges created by 2.

    Since you addressed all of us, I allowed myself to talk about 2. I do not see any challenges for my proposal for a solution to 2.

    -There might also be quite some other downsides that I did not think of yet.

    Any downsides you might not be thinking of, would have been apparent in all C1 versions up to version 20, as back then there was only one way to select "brushing" and C1 would automatically choose the correct brush tool, depending on the current layer selection.

    The challenge associated with 1. (the feature suggestion made by Jean Ayotte) is that selecting a layer does not equate to wanting to manipulate the layer. Imagine the following case:

    You are working on a set of images and are going through them to adjust their crops, one by one. You select a layer of one of the images because you want to make sure its mask is correct by displaying the mask (you may have copied masks before and want to ensure that you already adjusted the mask for this particular image). Now C1 would automatically change your tool selection to whatever tool is appropriate to work on that layer, forcing you to reselect the crop tool, if you deem the mask to be correct. In my view, that would not be desirable. I'm not against an explicit action that selects the tool that is appropriate for the currently selected layer (not, though, that there isn't always a unique choice) but in my view a user's tool selection should not be optimistically overridden by C1.

     

    And thanks for providing a suggestion for a shortcut replacement, in this case I would question the wonderful Ctrl key not being used at all for the most used layer (regular) - well apart from being part of a combination.

    Well, one of the modifier (combinations) cannot be applicable to regular layers, as it has to select the source point for heal/clone layers. I chose "Ctrl" because when selecting a source you control were the source point is. I chose "Alt" for the temporary eraser brush, because erasing is an alternative brushing mode.

    Since people's needs differ (some may never drag a mask, others may never temporarily activate erasing) it would be ideal if modifiers were assignable. Again, though, in my view the need for a temporary eraser brush is drastically diminished if it became possible again to only use two keys (say "U" and "E") to toggle between positive and negative brushing.

    Thanks again for inviting this dialogue.

     

    0
  • BeO
    • Bearbeitet
    Top Commenter

    Hi.

    I fully back what ClassA said. It might possibly sound complicated but it isn't.
    And it does not have a negative impact on users which might be used to the new brush types.

    You might possibly better understand the beauty of the simplicity when you work with
    an older version of C1, before the introduction of the new brush types, and especially
    (but not solely) when working with multiple layers of each kind, which is still possbile today.

    You choose a layer, then decide to brush, hit U, or to erase, hit E, and start brushing.
    Regardless of selected layer type. You just brush or erase the layer you have selected.
    No auto-switch. Simple and easy, not at all error-prone, and an ease to the mind.

    You basically have told C1 already to work with a certain layer by selecting the layer.
    Now you tell C1 that you want to add (or erase) to its mask. U or E. U activates the correc brush type. As simple as that.

    If you select an adjustments layer but want to add to the heal layer (why would you do so?), you still can do this
    by selecting the heal brush (or the keyboard shortcut), C1 can switch layers then, as now. Also simple.

    The behavior that if you have a brush of any type, select a layer of a different type and the brush type changes accordingly, this also can stay.

    The brush type specific setting, e.g. brush size and brush appearance and other properties also is an improvement
    introduced by the different brush types, this also can remain, the brush type would be determined by the layer type
    when hitting U.

    All can stay, just allow U to switch to the correct brush of the layer type which is already selected.

    Thanks
    BeO

    1
  • Class A

    @FirstName LastName

    Are you able to share how the testing of the prototype went?

    Can you share where the prototype is coming from?

    Did the clarifications BeO and I provided help?

    Would be great to be hearing from you again.

    0
  • FirstName LastName

    @Class A
    Hello again, I gave this universal brush quite some consideration, and both your clarifications did help.

    But I'm sorry.. Eventually I decided to jump on other projects instead, which I was more passionate about. Because while I understand your reasoning, I would not use the universal brush myself, while still achieving the same, in the same amount of time. If my other projects were not so interesting, I would still have tried it.

    But I am not part of any decision making for CaptureOne, so this does not affect whether this will be prioritized or not. I hope for you that it will still be picked up, good luck

    0

Post ist für Kommentare geschlossen.