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Use of the same tool but different effects on different layers - bug?

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19 comments

  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    Is the layer filled with a 100% mask?  How was the mask created?  Does the effect change if you right click on the layer and select "Fill Mask"?

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    Yes and opacity and luma range are full/set to to maximum. And the histogram still shows the difference. :|

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    Can you attach three screenshots?

    1. The adjustment you're applying so we can see exactly what you're doing
    2. What the image looks like when you apply that adjustment only to the "Image Layer"
    3. What the image looks like when you apply that adjustment only to the Adjustment layer with a completely fill mask
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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    1. Adjustment

    I'm setting saturation of blue to maximum in basic color editor

    2. Image when adjustment is applied only to the "Image Layer"
    3. Image when adjustment is applied only to the "Adjustment layer" with a completely filled mask (I clicked "Fill Mask" after I had created it).


    As you can see, there's a difference between histograms. And I've just noticed that the hue is also different.

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  • Marcin Mrzygłocki
    Top Commenter

    Please show also the layers and masks, if there are no other layers for example.

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    That's how the mask looks like when I use "Adjustment layer", if that's what you mean.

     

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    I can see slight differences in the histogram.  When I look at your screenshots at 100%, I see major differences in the sharpness and local contrast of the two images (just look at the lower right corner at 100%, for example).  This implies that there are other meaningful differences between these two images besides which layer the blue color adjustment is that account for at least some of the differences in the histogram and may explain your observations about the blues too.

    If I were to guess, I'd say that there are some sort of contrast adjustments that are not the same between these two, either overall contrast or clarity and perhaps sharpening.

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    I don't know if this effect is relevant here, but please note that there is no guarantee that you get the same result when you move a given adjustment around between layers because the order of the various transforms on the image can be changed when you move things around.  And, which adjustments go first can effect exactly what color values the following adjustments are acting on.

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    The reason for differences in sharpness and clarity is that I cut printscreens diffrently. When I'm looking at JPGs on my computer they look the same in terms of sharpness and clarity.

    In my opinion if adjustment layer is fully filled it should work like background layer. Or if some parts of the photo are fully masked. I think I'll report it as a bug.

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    In my opinion if adjustment layer is fully filled it should work like background layer. 

    Only if you have NO other adjustments in the image layer.  If you have other adjustments in the image layer, then your blue adjustments in the layer are working on the result of the adjustments in the image layer, not on the original image like they might if they were in the image layer. 

    It's never been completely clear to me what order C1 applies adjustments (it does not seem quite as straightforward as how Photoshop does it in layers), but there has to be some order and that "apply order" can be changed by putting things in layers.

    It will be interesting to see if Capture One thinks it is a bug or just a difference based on the order of processing.  Is this relatively small difference (that I can see from the screenshots you provided) seriously bothering you?  If you want even more effect, you can stack layers to repeat the adjustment or use other controls that also affect color.

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    John, that's exactly the case. In order to be sure, that I don't mess something up, I adjusted only one colour in differents tests/photos. And now I see really crazy results. Sometimes saturation is stronger on a picture with adjustment layer, sometimes weaker. But every time the colours are different in general.

    Is it bothering me? Hmm, in some cases not that much, but sometimes it can be a problem. I mean, at least I'd like to understand the reason, if it isn't a bug.

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    I wonder if there's something else wrong with your system or monitor.  It's kind of hard to imagine the effect would vary randomly as you describe.  You could post a link to two EIP files (hosted somewhere where we could download), one done each way you described and let others look at them.  I'm not sure what else to say without something to see.  The one thing you posted to see apparently wasn't a valid comparison.  You'll probably need to do something like this for a good bug report anyway.

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    I don't think that there's anything wrong with my system or monitor. The difference is visible in histogram, therefore I believe it's a bug in Capture One or intended beahaviour that we don't understand. Nontheless you can download EIP file - it contains two variants of one photo. Difference in histogram is really big. And you will notice differences in color immediately. This time I set saturation of orange to maximum (in basic color editor).

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Scj01wWOLyqaptfCIpnhl3-w_nkuNEH2/view?usp=sharing

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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    I think that the problem is specifically with the colour editor tool.

    I downloaded your file and had a go with it.

    This is the result of an increase in the orange channel saturation in the basic colour editor tab (as you did) - variant (1) is done to the image layer, and in variant (2) the identical adjustment has been moved to an adjustment layer. As well as the visual differences, I see different colour readouts.

    However, I then tried using different tools. I reset all the adjustments on the image, then made adjustments instead with the shadows slider and the Luma curve. In variant (5) shown here, these are on the Image layer, but in variant (6) they have been moved to a filled adjustment layer. 

    Now the two adjusted images are the same. (Again, see the colour readouts.)

    So I conclude that it's something to do with the colour editor tool. I tried a similar thing on the advanced colour editor instead, making some fairly subtle adjustments like this.

    The result is again a bit of a difference depending on whether it is on the Image layer or an adjustment layer.

    So it's the whole colour editor tool that is the issue not just the basic tab.

    Ian

     

     

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    Ian, thank you that you verified it on your own. I've already reported it as a bug. We'll see what Capture One says.

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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    And did it appear to you to be a problem just with the Colour Editor?

    Ian

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    I made one test few minutes ago and there's a slight difference between two variants after adjusting contrast, brightness and shadows. So at least in my case it looks like it isn't only about colour editor.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Color Balance (except the Master Color Balance) and the Black & White tool converts to Adobe RGB 1998 (if memory serves). Same for local Color Edits.

    Note, 'local' means in a layer. This might also be true for other tools, who knows.

    This quote is part of a reply from C1 for a bug report of mine (related to Color Editor tool not reflecting in histogram, color readouts and highlight warning, when "no proof profile" is set).

    What does that mean:

    Not all tools work in the same color space (preferably an internal big space), and the processing pipeline in C1 utilizes color space conversions (with AdobeRGB not being a very big space). Color space conversions are known to have detrimental effects (e.g. quantization errors), so this (for me new) information is not a good one.

    This might also explain your observations for the tools you tested.

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  • Krzysztof Suchowiecki

    Hello!

    I was informed today that the bug had been initially checked and was sent to RnD team for further analysis.

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