new HDR controls
I see that we now have Black and White sliders in addition to Shadows and Highlights. I can "sort of" see the effects of Black and White adjustments, intuitively; it seems like they pull in the extreme ends of the full raw DR, while Shadows and Highlights work on regions of the histogram inside those extremes. At least that's my initial impression. And while the Help text is a bit vague, I think that's what it's saying.
It seems to work well!
It seems to work well!
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Agreed.
Best played with on a nicely spread and balanced exposure to gain understanding in my opinion.
The Histogram presentation is an important part of the understanding.
Grant0 -
What I'd to see in the Help is a more technical explanation of what the sliders really do to the histogram. I used the previous version, with the Shadows/Highlights adjustments, a lot. I'd like to know in detail how the new version works.
What's in Help now is more like a sales pitch aimed at total noobs, plus a disclaimer about how this isn't really "HDR" because it only uses one input image.0 -
It does seem to be quite different in some ways but that may simply be because I was familiar enough with the previous approach to not pay much attention to the histogram. And of course the adjustment was all one way - constraining towards the middle.
This new tutorial video seems to offer some useful introductory guidance quite near (but not at) the beginning.
https://learn.captureone.com/tutorials/essential-adjustments/?utm_source=feedgrabbr&utm_content=tutorials
Grant0 -
Thanks, I looked at that part of the video. He adjusted Shadows first, and only then used Blacks to apparently pull the deepest blacks back down but without clipping them. Not clear to me if you have to do it in that order, I assume not.
I feel like this is an important new feature that I'll use a lot but really hoping for some more detail on it from Phase One.0 -
JimHughes wrote:
Thanks, I looked at that part of the video. He adjusted Shadows first, and only then used Blacks to apparently pull the deepest blacks back down but without clipping them. Not clear to me if you have to do it in that order, I assume not.
I feel like this is an important new feature that I'll use a lot but really hoping for some more detail on it from Phase One.
I think I am going to have to spend some time learning how to get the best out of that. I'm looking forward to the first webinars on Capture One 20, and hoping to learn more. I expect that participants will ask about this and there will be some helpful Q & A about it.
Ian0 -
JimHughes wrote:
Thanks, I looked at that part of the video. He adjusted Shadows first, and only then used Blacks to apparently pull the deepest blacks back down but without clipping them. Not clear to me if you have to do it in that order, I assume not.
I feel like this is an important new feature that I'll use a lot but really hoping for some more detail on it from Phase One.
Whilst I suspect there may be other differences under the hood it looks like the black and white point setting is another way of limiting the extremes as can be achieved with the target levels using the black and white point settings at the bottom of the Levels tool. However its effects and reach seem to be subtly different if one watches the various histograms available.
There's a webinar on the 12th Dec that may be a good opportunity to find out what is what and ask questions.
Grant0 -
JimHughes wrote:
I see that we now have Black and White sliders in addition to Shadows and Highlights. I can "sort of" see the effects of Black and White adjustments, intuitively; it seems like they pull in the extreme ends of the full raw DR, while Shadows and Highlights work on regions of the histogram inside those extremes. At least that's my initial impression. And while the Help text is a bit vague, I think that's what it's saying.
It seems to work well!
I think it is important to recognise that the sliders labelled Blacks and Whites are not the same as the equivalent labelled sliders in LR. In LR they are used to set the black and white points and are required because LR does not have a Levels tool. In C1 you still need to set the black and White points with the levels tool before using the HDR Blacks and Whites sliders. As I understand it these sliders work over a narrow range with the Levels set Black and White points providing a hard stop for their range of action.
Ian0 -
IanS wrote:
I think it is important to recognise that the sliders labelled Blacks and Whites are not the same as the equivalent labelled sliders in LR. In LR they are used to set the black and white points and are required because LR does not have a Levels tool. In C1 you still need to set the black and White points with the levels tool before using the HDR Blacks and Whites sliders. As I understand it these sliders work over a narrow range with the Levels set Black and White points providing a hard stop for their range of action.
Ian
That's my assumption too. There's no point to new sliders that just duplicate the endpoint settings in Levels. I think they're now giving us 4 ranges of the histogram to adjust in "HDR", instead of 2. But it sure would be nice if they'd just say this in the Help.
Things would be clearer if the labels on these sliders were plural instead of singular: Highlights, Shadows, Blacks, Whites.0 -
This is the best reason to update to 20 in my opinion. My real estate photography just got a whole lot better. 0 -
I feel like they missed a great opportunity here to add a new type of slider, rather than these black and white ones. Why add even more options for end points? So now we have not only 2xCurves and Levels, but also black and white? Thats six ways to adjust the end points of an image?!?
Why not add something more useful like shadow and highlight contrast with a bias slider for each?0 -
eartho wrote:
Why not add something more useful like shadow and highlight contrast with a bias slider for each?
Isn't it what highlight/white and shadow/black sliders are meant for? 😕0 -
IanS wrote:
I think it is important to recognise that the sliders labelled Blacks and Whites are not the same as the equivalent labelled sliders in LR. In LR they are used to set the black and white points and are required because LR does not have a Levels tool. In C1 you still need to set the black and White points with the levels tool before using the HDR Blacks and Whites sliders. As I understand it these sliders work over a narrow range with the Levels set Black and White points providing a hard stop for their range of action.
Ian
Alexonraw reported this too but honestly I can't see the difference. Underexpose an image and use the white slider to bring white up. You will see in the histogram that, even if there are no highlights at all, midtones will be influenced too as in Lightroom. If you hover the histogram in LR you will see five fixed bands and you can set Blacks, Shadows, Exposition, Highlights and Whites from there. The ranges can be different in CO (I don't know) but I see them work in the same way. Also it's not entirely true that Lightroom doesn't have Levels. There's not a dedicated tool (with a Levels shape) but if you enable Point Curve editing in Tone Curve you can set black and white points exactly like in CO Curve tool, which doubles Black and White (input) points in Levels tool. In this regard eartho is right. There's an abundance of controllers for the same parameters in Capture One, but then subtleties make them all useful in a peculiar way.0 -
ClauS wrote:
eartho wrote:
Why not add something more useful like shadow and highlight contrast with a bias slider for each?
Isn't it what highlight/white and shadow/black sliders are meant for? 😕
Not really. If you spend some time with white/black, you'll see that those sliders aren't very different that the end points of curves and levels. As far as i'm concerned, all those sliders basically do the exact same thing with very little opportunity for precision control. For example, try adding contrast to the specific range of 0-80 or 180-255. Can't be done.
This is exactly the same issue that's happened in Lightroom. There are 10 controls all affecting the same thing. It's very poor design and UX since now you need to learn the subtle differences between say the end points of Levels vs white/black sliders. All that's happening here is that the marketing dept, who doesn't understand levels and curves, are pushing the dev team to create sliders which can be grasped by beginners... without realizing that they're actually making things more complicated and difficult to understand.0 -
eartho wrote:
For example, try adding contrast to the specific range of 0-80 or 180-255. Can't be done.
Luma range? In fact using a Luma range you could set it to exactly 0-80 rather than 0-approximately 80 which is what you would get pushing a slider around.
Ian0
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