C1 20 Documentation (lack of)

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22 comments

  • Keith Reeder
    I'm not sure that's fair.

    You're holding Phase One to account for not matching your own personal expectations of how documentation should look and work, and it's not Phase One's job to write guidance for you.

    Personally (and admitting that I would like an offline/PDF version - but it's a simple fact that we live in an online world...), I think the documentation is actually pretty good.
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  • Samoreen
    Sorry but I totally disagree. Software documentation usually follows widely accepted standards. I'm not talking about my own needs but about providing a documentation that corresponds to usual standard. Table of contents with links, index, etc. are documentation standards. Please show me where they are in the current online documentation.
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  • SFA
    Samoreen wrote:
    Sorry but I totally disagree. Software documentation usually follows widely accepted standards. I'm not talking about my own needs but about providing a documentation that corresponds to usual standard. Table of contents with links, index, etc. are documentation standards. Please show me where they are in the current online documentation.


    Historically and in terms of personal preferences I would tend to agree with you.

    But then back in the day things changed very slowly and no one had the internet or mobile devices that come with their own, varied, screen format requirements.

    And nobody expected an interactive experience.

    We used to print thousands of pages for Manuals and user guides that no-one ever read.

    We moved to PDF format and sent out CDs that nobody ever looked at. Despite extended work creating word search capabilities in the electronic documents.

    The world has gone "agile" and also expects to be able to comment on stuff.

    It looks like Phase are making an attempt to move that way and no doubt there is a learning process involved and things will develop.

    Personally I don't think it's very pretty but it is, so far, proving to be quite functional and the ability to make comments could be interesting. Something to keep under observation.
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  • Cputeq
    While I enjoy detailed technical documentation, those days are long, long gone for most software except maybe programming IDEs.

    I was a user of Lightroom since *beta 1* and I think I've only seen decent documentation for that program when it was first hitting the market -- after that, it was all Youtube or website videos and short articles. It doesn't surprise me that C1 is in the same boat.

    I was thinking of maybe starting some Youtube videos to help with former LR users using C1 -- C1 does some great things, but it also does some really peculiar behaviors which don't seem to follow ANY KNOWN behavior patterns from other software....I'm still trying to figure it all out -- whoever they have in charge of their GUI has to be a team of engineers that probably love using Excel with monochrome VGA CRTs. (I know, I'm mean, and I know C1 has a lot of audience use cases to contend with, but they don't help themselves by making things too complex for their own good).
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  • Samoreen
    Cputeq wrote:
    whoever they have in charge of their GUI has to be a team of engineers that probably love using Excel with monochrome VGA CRTs


    Very much agreed. This kind of guys don't like writing docs.
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  • Clau_S
    Passing through many Capture One versions I've always had the habit (like I generally do with everything that gets updated through time) to re-read the manual entirely to be sure not to miss anything of new features and have a refresh of the old ones. Every time you can discover things you overlooked earlier (as it happens with books or movies). That's why I can but prefer the linearity of an old book style PDF user manual where you can highlight things too and take notes to go back to later if you need. This time I won't read it. I already gave up on Photoshop manual with all that annoying and useless browsing involved.
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  • JIM lykele
    As someone that is new to Capture One 2020, I would almost give anything for a PDF of the keyboard shortcuts. Not just the current shortcuts that exist, but also the empty shortcuts that a user can program. While watching some videos I try and listen if the instructor mentions some shortcut I might want.

    Anyway that is my wish list.

    Jim
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  • SFA
    NNN636432756965755749 wrote:
    As someone that is new to Capture One 2020, I would almost give anything for a PDF of the keyboard shortcuts. Not just the current shortcuts that exist, but also the empty shortcuts that a user can program. While watching some videos I try and listen if the instructor mentions some shortcut I might want.

    Anyway that is my wish list.

    Jim


    Jim,

    Unless you are an avid keyboard short cut warrior you probably don't need a document with a full list.

    There are, for example, long lists of potential shortcuts that are for different values of a single concept.

    Have a look at the "Other" group in the Keyboard Short Cuts editor as an example.

    Realistically you will create what you know you need and while doing so will probably get a good feel and a memory for the sort of stuff that might be available. Next time you feel a desperate need for a new shortcut that memory will allow you to dive into the editor and search very quickly to discover whether what you think would be useful may possibly exist as a current option.

    Now a couple of versions back, before the new shortcut editor was introduced, I would have agreed with your observation.

    Now, not so much.

    My advice would be to work on the basis of what you feel you need and then look to see if it is available rather that consider the whole list and try to find uses for it.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Clau_S
    NNN636432756965755749 wrote:
    As someone that is new to Capture One 2020, I would almost give anything for a PDF of the keyboard shortcuts. Not just the current shortcuts that exist, but also the empty shortcuts that a user can program. While watching some videos I try and listen if the instructor mentions some shortcut I might want.

    Anyway that is my wish list.

    Jim


    With a(n infinite) PDF list you would have to search for the function you want to assign a custom shortcut to not to waste time scrolling it with your eyes. The "Edit Keyboard shortcuts..." feature has already a search function, so a PDF list seems unnecessary to me. When I find myself using a function very often I go to the shortcut editor and search for its most relevant keyword. If it's programmable it will be filtered, otherwise it won't.
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  • NNN637073526727149201
    If there were a written documentation in PDF, many questions in this forum would not have been asked at all.

    Hope this documentation will be available soon. ❗️

    Pierre
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  • SFA
    NNN637073526727149201 wrote:
    If there were a written documentation in PDF, many questions in this forum would not have been asked at all.

    Hope this documentation will be available soon. ❗️

    Pierre


    You would hope so Pierre but I think history suggests you might be disappointed.


    Grant
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  • Irvin.Gomez
    Did you expect something like this?

    https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-cc/user-guide.html

    Samoreen wrote:
    Hi,

    The C1 documentation has always been terrible but when I hit the F1 key in C1 20, I could see that we have now reached the top level of uselessness.

    - No downloadable PDF version
    - Version number not event mentioned
    - Navigation scheme absolutely terrible
    - No index
    - No usable table of contents

    ...just to mention the least. At that price level, a decent documentation is expected. And to those who think about replying with "you have a lot of videos available", I would answer that video tutorials are not a documentation. If I need detailed explanations about a particular feature of the software, I want to have a written documentation. I'm not ready to spend hours finding the video where this feature will be mentioned (if it exists) and wait until I find the moment in the video where this will happen.

    Really disappointing (as usual when we are talking about the C1 documentation).
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  • Samoreen
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:
    Did you expect something like this?

    https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-cc/user-guide.html


    Not much better but at least, they provide a reference manual in PDF format (https://helpx.adobe.com/content/dam/help/en/pdf/lightroom_reference.pdf).
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  • SFA
    Samoreen wrote:
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:
    Did you expect something like this?

    https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-cc/user-guide.html


    Not much better but at least, they provide a reference manual in PDF format (https://helpx.adobe.com/content/dam/help/en/pdf/lightroom_reference.pdf).


    As it's adobe they could hardly NOT publicise one of their main products. People would wonder why they did not offer such a solution.

    As I recall Phase used to offer a PDF prepared PDF version of the HTML User Guide ready for download.

    One would think that if it was popular they would continue with it or something similar.

    Looking around what I have installed that is recent - very few applications seem to come with PDF user guide/help files.

    In some cases (Affinity for example) users seems to have gone to the trouble of creating a PDF user guide but one wonders if they are kept up to date with changes.


    Grant
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  • Irvin.Gomez
    SFA wrote:


    As it's adobe they could hardly NOT publicise one of their main products. People would wonder why they did not offer such a solution.


    Actually, it’s Phase One the one who needs to accommodate its customers the most. Adobe could offer the exact same silly and transparent excuses that people are making here: there’s plenty of tutorials out there, more than anything else (which would be absolutely true), there are hundreds of sites offering lots of learning materials on Lightroom and Photoshop, etc., etc.

    And yet, Adobe does not do that. It offers a PDF manual and plenty of resources. Phase One is charging a whole lot more than Adobe for a product that is excelent, but not as complete as the subscription (yes, I know those who don’t want to pay more must be willing to forsake the latest features). BtW, the Phase One subscription is almost twice the price of Adobe’s - weird marketing decision.

    So, no, there is no excuse for not providing a written manual at the price they are charging. I’m glad I stayed at v11 and look forward to the day the upgrade prices become more in line with industry standards. Then, Phase One might see a dollar from me again, Until then, I vote with my wallet.
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  • SFA
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:

    Actually, it’s Phase One the one who needs to accommodate its customers the most. Adobe could offer the exact same silly and transparent excuses that people are making here:.


    I think you completely miss my point.

    The PDF format and a lot of the tools related to it like Acrobat is/are a key part of the Adobe product range and corporate level sales. For them to not use and promote the the product at every opportunity on their own web sites would be, at the very least, strange.

    At one point the PDF reader was offered free and with some useful functionality to go with it in order to create a market and lock out any nascent competition. Once that was completely established things started to change and now, since PDFs having become a de facto standard for certain types of electronic document rather like "Hoover" is for vacuum cleaners, it is marketed as a chargeable (mainly subscription?) on line service.

    Microsoft produced what was in many ways a very similar product ... but who uses that? Or can even remember what it is called?

    Abobe can probably justify the overhead of producing the PDF because they own the software that does it and the work is part of promoting that software. If only 1% of their users actually read the documentation that, in marketing terms for the use of the PDF product, probably justifies the costs, such as they will be. Bear in mind that a very large number of users of any other product that we might talk about here will also be using an Adobe product in some way at least some of the time. Or at least paying for something even if not using it.

    I like the idea of manuals and user guides in "electronic book" form. However I suspect those days are fading fast in a connected world where it is easier to undertake a lookup on whatever device one happens to have to hand rather than try and remember when one last downloaded an electronic version and where one saved it. There is the added benefit that, if maintained and curated well, an on-line document can be corrected, enhanced according to feedback and kept up to date more readily and with less non-beneficial 'production' effort than a PDF book and with less data overhead for both the provider and the customer.

    Note well though the words I highlighted.

    I well remember the times of desktop software delivered on disk complete with printer tutorial training guide and a printed manual of several hundred pages. I've helped write a few of them in my time.

    But back them product development (B2B in the field I was involved with) was slower and client updating slower again due to the overhead changing anything added to the operational needs. I rarely found any clients, other then a few of the project managers or internal trainers during a setup project, who read any of the documentation.

    I have boxes of older versions of software or which small forests were probably harvested to provide printed guides that have never again seen daylight since they were boxed.

    There will be petabytes of data storage capacity around the world occupied by never opened and long lost "manuals" and "user guides" that, if opened now, might actually prove to be dangerously misleading in some cases.

    However, getting the balance right for both content and presentation of "agile" on-line information provision seems to be a science that is still in its development stage. Or perhaps an art for which the content delivered does not always mach everyone's personal preferences.


    Grant




    Grant
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  • Irvin.Gomez
    This has nothing to do with Adobe or documentation in PDF format.

    It has to do with Customers expecting a well-documented product when paying for Capture One Pro. No such documentation exists.

    Some people like you, are ok with that. Others are not. I vote with my wallet: Capture One is an excellent product, but not worth the money in light of much better, more valuable alternatives. I won’t shell out another penny until the prices drop to a reasonable level.

    I’m not demanding Phase One does anything specific - I have no such power. But I do have power over my wallet.


    SFA wrote:
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:

    Actually, it’s Phase One the one who needs to accommodate its customers the most. Adobe could offer the exact same silly and transparent excuses that people are making here:.


    I think you completely miss my point.

    The PDF format and a lot of the tools related to it like Acrobat is/are a key part of the Adobe product range and corporate level sales. For them to not use and promote the the product at every opportunity on their own web sites would be, at the very least, strange.

    At one point the PDF reader was offered free and with some useful functionality to go with it in order to create a market and lock out any nascent competition. Once that was completely established things started to change and now, since PDFs having become a de facto standard for certain types of electronic document rather like "Hoover" is for vacuum cleaners, it is marketed as a chargeable (mainly subscription?) on line service.

    Microsoft produced what was in many ways a very similar product ... but who uses that? Or can even remember what it is called?

    Abobe can probably justify the overhead of producing the PDF because they own the software that does it and the work is part of promoting that software. If only 1% of their users actually read the documentation that, in marketing terms for the use of the PDF product, probably justifies the costs, such as they will be. Bear in mind that a very large number of users of any other product that we might talk about here will also be using an Adobe product in some way at least some of the time. Or at least paying for something even if not using it.

    I like the idea of manuals and user guides in "electronic book" form. However I suspect those days are fading fast in a connected world where it is easier to undertake a lookup on whatever device one happens to have to hand rather than try and remember when one last downloaded an electronic version and where one saved it. There is the added benefit that, if maintained and curated well, an on-line document can be corrected, enhanced according to feedback and kept up to date more readily and with less non-beneficial 'production' effort than a PDF book and with less data overhead for both the provider and the customer.

    Note well though the words I highlighted.

    I well remember the times of desktop software delivered on disk complete with printer tutorial training guide and a printed manual of several hundred pages. I've helped write a few of them in my time.

    But back them product development (B2B in the field I was involved with) was slower and client updating slower again due to the overhead changing anything added to the operational needs. I rarely found any clients, other then a few of the project managers or internal trainers during a setup project, who read any of the documentation.

    I have boxes of older versions of software or which small forests were probably harvested to provide printed guides that have never again seen daylight since they were boxed.

    There will be petabytes of data storage capacity around the world occupied by never opened and long lost "manuals" and "user guides" that, if opened now, might actually prove to be dangerously misleading in some cases.

    However, getting the balance right for both content and presentation of "agile" on-line information provision seems to be a science that is still in its development stage. Or perhaps an art for which the content delivered does not always mach everyone's personal preferences.


    Grant




    Grant
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  • Keith Reeder
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:
    It has to do with Customers expecting a well-documented product when paying for Capture One Pro. No such documentation exists.

    In your opinion, Irvin.
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  • Samoreen
    Keith Reeder wrote:
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:
    It has to do with Customers expecting a well-documented product when paying for Capture One Pro. No such documentation exists.

    In your opinion, Irvin.


    It's not a matter of opinion. Assuming I'm outside with a portable PC on which C1 is installed with no possibility to connect to the Internet. I need some explanations about such or such feature. What solution are you suggesting ? Should I add a big book about C1 to my photo bag ? Which book by the way (C1 doesn't seem to inspire much authors) ? This is what PDF files are for.
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  • Irvin.Gomez
    Keith Reeder wrote:
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:
    It has to do with Customers expecting a well-documented product when paying for Capture One Pro. No such documentation exists.

    In your opinion, Irvin.


    If it’s just a matter of opinion, you will surely point to it with a simple link or sentence. Go ahead, do it.

    Or maybe you’re just presenting ‘alternative facts’?
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  • Samoreen
    Hi,

    Just for the fun...

    I sent a request to the support. Excerpt :

    Also, not everyone is always connected when needing to access the documentation. So a PDF version should be made available.

    And the answer was :

    I'll pass this on to the rest of the team to see what we do to improve this in the future.[...] We encourage you to browse our Help Center for detailed product documentation, helpful pro tips, and much more.
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  • Keith Reeder
    Irvin.Gomez wrote:
    If it’s just a matter of opinion, you will surely point to it with a simple link or sentence. Go ahead, do it.

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/categories/360000279017-Capture-One-User-Guide

    Or maybe you’re just presenting ‘alternative facts’?

    You were saying? This is exactly what the F1 key gets you in Capture One..!

    And specific to 20, there's this:

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/categories/360000449337-Capture-One-20

    So dislike it as much as you want - but don't try telling me again that it doesn't exist...
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