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  • Paul_Steunebrink
    I am afraid there is no such option.
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  • SFA
    NNN636736407392568005 wrote:
    Hi chaps,

    Is there an easy way to collapse all of the filters in one go please? EG for the date filters C1 opens them all out by default and I have a list as long as my arm to scroll through to find a year, I would much prefer all filters to be collapsed

    Thanks


    You can disable the filters to stop them appearing or to show only those that you feel most useful and not intrusive.

    Or remove the Filters tool from the Library tab completely?

    What would be your preference for the display ?


    Grant
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  • NNN636736407392568005
    Thanks chaps, I shall stop trying to find the collapse button.

    Grant, to answer the question, from my usage point of view I would prefer these to be collapsed by default not open. I have a moderate sized collection of around 140K images. I previously used lightroom but migrated away as I dislike subscription models. I have since been using darktable, which is extremely good but has some issues with the GUI at the moment on my 4K TV I use as my monitor

    I am now shooting with Fuji so I have been trying the cut down version of C1 Fuji Express. So far I have put around 45K images into the C1 catalog, but I am not overly impressed. To be perfectly honest I have found it extremely slow, clunky and lacking in some of the basic fundamentals that I would have thought would be standard in a pro offering.

    To speed things up I have split the images into projects with albums within the projects and smart albums to split up the album but its still clunky and slow.

    as an example I have a personal album of Christmas with images taken around each Christmas period dating back since around 2000. there are around 6500 images in the project. In darktable I click on the Christmas tag and it start whirring as it accesses the 6500 thumbnails, but I can still click on a second selection, pick date, enter the date i.e 2017 and within seconds the thumbnails for the images flash up. Fast neat and quick and I am ready to edit

    In C1 I click on the Christmas album and wait, and wait and wait while it whirs and clunks counting every single image until eventually I get all the images counted and I can click on the date selection, I then get a list as long as my arm with every year and days used in the album since 2000 stretching as long as my arm, and I then scroll and scroll and scroll (or collapse year after year) all within a teeny window. Its dire!

    To be honest it all seems extremely crude, darktable runs rings around C1 and its an open source software.

    And C1 cannot stack images so I cannot stack a raw with an edit, I then found that I cannot do a full screen preview.Amazing, this must be one of the most important functions ever.

    And dont get me started on the bugs! My goodness I get the "retrieving images from trash" almost every time I move something from one album to another. The Counts get muddled up and sometimes doubles or forgets, or shows a number and when you click on the tag it says none found! (does seem a bit better on last update)

    Apologies , I think that the frustration on trying to migrate over the images has all just come flowing out. Forgive my rant, it is nothing personal as I know none of this has anything to do with you chaps, you are just users like me.
    I think I need to go to bed now and have another go tomorrow

    Regards and respect

    Steve
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  • SFA
    NNN636736407392568005 wrote:
    Thanks chaps, I shall stop trying to find the collapse button.

    Grant, to answer the question, from my usage point of view I would prefer these to be collapsed by default not open. I have a moderate sized collection of around 140K images. I previously used lightroom but migrated away as I dislike subscription models. I have since been using darktable, which is extremely good but has some issues with the GUI at the moment on my 4K TV I use as my monitor

    I am now shooting with Fuji so I have been trying the cut down version of C1 Fuji Express. So far I have put around 45K images into the C1 catalog, but I am not overly impressed. To be perfectly honest I have found it extremely slow, clunky and lacking in some of the basic fundamentals that I would have thought would be standard in a pro offering.

    To speed things up I have split the images into projects with albums within the projects and smart albums to split up the album but its still clunky and slow.

    as an example I have a personal album of Christmas with images taken around each Christmas period dating back since around 2000. there are around 6500 images in the project. In darktable I click on the Christmas tag and it start whirring as it accesses the 6500 thumbnails, but I can still click on a second selection, pick date, enter the date i.e 2017 and within seconds the thumbnails for the images flash up. Fast neat and quick and I am ready to edit

    In C1 I click on the Christmas album and wait, and wait and wait while it whirs and clunks counting every single image until eventually I get all the images counted and I can click on the date selection, I then get a list as long as my arm with every year and days used in the album since 2000 stretching as long as my arm, and I then scroll and scroll and scroll (or collapse year after year) all within a teeny window. Its dire!

    To be honest it all seems extremely crude, darktable runs rings around C1 and its an open source software.

    And C1 cannot stack images so I cannot stack a raw with an edit, I then found that I cannot do a full screen preview.Amazing, this must be one of the most important functions ever.

    And dont get me started on the bugs! My goodness I get the "retrieving images from trash" almost every time I move something from one album to another. The Counts get muddled up and sometimes doubles or forgets, or shows a number and when you click on the tag it says none found! (does seem a bit better on last update)

    Apologies , I think that the frustration on trying to migrate over the images has all just come flowing out. Forgive my rant, it is nothing personal as I know none of this has anything to do with you chaps, you are just users like me.
    I think I need to go to bed now and have another go tomorrow

    Regards and respect

    Steve


    Steve,

    I think you may like the more functional version overall but it does not necessarily address all of your concerns as they stand at the moment.

    I don't use catalogues but even so the ideal situation for start up speed to to use SSDs and hibernate rather than shut down entirely.

    C1 is really designed to favour speed in processing rather than speed of start up. Never having used darktable and not having used LR since V1.4 I can't really compare anything on the performance front my 7 years old laptop running Win 7 still seems as fast today as it did when I started using it so I have not spent a lot of time investigating potential fine tuning of my processes for speed. So long as I am working in the internal drives things seem fine enough. YMMV.

    Admittedly my RAW files may be smaller that yours but when I work with folders of larger test files I'm not stuck by any obvious change in speed unless I start to work with 150Mb files at 100% in which case, yep, there is a little extra time required to do stuff but not so big a difference that it matters.

    Let's step back to the filters thing for a moment. (I'm assuming this part of the functionality is no different between the Full application and the the Express version - I have never used Express.)

    You can just filter without using the Filters tool as it is presentsed in the Library Tab. That might well be what you need to do at start up.

    Also if you have the filters tool open (as in the display that comes in the Library Tab) you can collapse the entire expanded list by clicking the arrow next to Date (or any of the individual filters being displayed).

    If you then click again to open the Date section of the filter I would expect you to see only the first level - Years presumably - not the fully extended analysis down to day in month.

    Each displayed filter (you can change what is presented by default) can only be collapsed one at a time but the entire Filter tool can be collapsed to a single line.

    Once collapsed, if you then close the catalogue in that state the same state should persist when you reopen the catalogue next time you want to use it.

    In general this is true for all settings where such a decision is logical and providing C1 does not find something different to work with the next time you open the catalogue and it runs its checks.

    I have no idea how darktable works but C1 always anticipates that it might be expected to go back to the source file at some point to perform a real time in-line calculation. That concept may come with some overhead for perceived loading times but maybe offers some benefits during the editing phases.

    I suspect if you were not display the filters on start up - especially your date filter by the sound of it - you may perceive a faster experience. Anecdotally catalogue users have reported some beneficial effects from restricting what displays by default on start up.

    As I use sessions and mostly they have many shots taken in a short period or not many shots taken over a longer period but not all that many dates, I don't experience the same sort of time related performance problems on start up.

    If you don't use an internal SSD as your drive I would heartily suggest you consider it for many reasons well beyond the use of C1.

    Also, I think this is still possible in the Express version, you can "float" the tools.

    So although I would recommend that you just search for dates you know you want (mostly) and keep the filter tool minimised, if you really wish to use it from time to time in expanded form simply drag the tool out of the tab or add a floating tool and then drag the tool window to a size that suits you better. Discard it when done.

    In the Full version you can do more in terms of personalizing the tool tabs than you can in the Express version.

    The "retrieving" bug is an odd one. I suspect it may not be the correct text displayed but as I rarely use catalogues and so I never move stuff between albums I'm probably not someone whose C1 experiences count for much with that particular annoyance.


    HTH.


    Grant
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  • BeO
    NNN636736407392568005 wrote:
    .

    And C1 cannot stack images so I cannot stack a raw with an edit, I then found that I cannot do a full screen preview.Amazing, this must be one of the most important functions ever.

    Steve


    Hi Steve,

    Full screen, more or less, you can do (assuming it is not a limitation in the Express version). There is a separate window you can open, the "Viewer" (F10, or via the main menu "windows"). It opens as a floating window and especially if you happen to have 2 monitors that's a neat thing. You might want to customize the viewer under menu item "view"/"customize viewer", but there will still be a small caption bar left which I think you cannot remove.

    For a real preview you go to View/Slide show and pause it. Assign a keyboard shortcut e.g. S.

    Or, process the image to jpg or any other file firmat, assign a program which can do a full screen to open the jpg automatically and view it from there, e.g Firefox? That's very useful for a real preview in the target output medium/app, given it is the internet.

    After all, C1 is a raw file editor, not a picture viewer, and honestly I have not used the slide show in the past but now I have recalled it exists and maybe start using it from today... 😉

    Why do you want to stack a raw with an edit, for a before / after comparison? Press / hold the Alt key and click on the big Reset all button in the top bar this will temoprarily reset all edits, release the key and you are back. The alt reset trick works with each tools' reset button too, which I use often.

    Loading performance with such many images is a weakness indeed, but C1 has improved over the past years, and hardware will get faster in the upcoming years, so it should be better in the future. Today, I would be very frustrated too, if I had so many images in just one catalog. C1 is not particularly known for the best catalog, but it works for me and the raw quality and editing tools (and their performance, given a decent graphics card) are the reasons why it is my favorite raw editor, today. Splitting a catalog is not what many catalog users want to do, but is a viable workaround. And, as Grant pointed out, use the fastest hardware you want afford.

    C1, as any other program out there, has advantages and disadvantages and you should figure out which is the best available for you. Did you try the pro version? It does not better your pain points mentioned here (!) but it gives you the full picture of possible advantages.

    Regards
    BeO
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  • NNN636736407392568005
    Hi Chaps,

    Firstly I am grateful that you took the time to read and reply to my post, it was extremely decent of you and I certainly do not want to upset any of you, so please do not take offence on my reply.

    After a rather restless night I have risen to the decision that C1 is not the right tool for my requirements. I accept that the paid version is more feature rich as one would expect but I am unwilling to take the chance that it “might� be better,

    Additionally I do not want to slag off the software or say X is better than Y as obviously C1 is of extreme use to a lot of people who rely on it for their livelihood, so instead let me air the limitations of the “express� version as I see it from my perspective

    First let me mention hardware, I have a modest i7 32GB ram with approx 10 TB internal storage on three fairly fast drives, up to now I have had no problems accessing images rapidly so I have no desire to purchase faster drives (just bigger! I'm running out of room again!) So yes SSD would be faster, but hardware is not really the problem.

    On shutdown, I closed all tabs. This morning on startup C1 was in the same Album as I left it and it was ready to go with all keyword tags etc ready, that was nice. C1 needs to be shutdown as my pc goes into backup modes during the night with auto shutdown on success so all programs need to be closed. But it was good that it remember where I was.

    Unfortunately, when I clicked on another album that had 1round 6K images, I had to wait while it counted each image. I experimented with the filters closed but it makes to difference. C1 needs to look at every image to determine what tags are used before it can display the tag, so you have to wait for it to complete if your tag is one of the last found.

    Now I know I said I would not do X better than Y but I must mention this design as it is rather flawed for larger collections. Most of the other software I have used or tested to date will display all of your keywords/hierarchy . You select the keyword criteria and the software will go and find the images. Most of these packages are pretty nifty.
    C1 design is that you give it the images to start with , and it will go and find all the keyword tags in use for these images for you to select. I.e a cut down version if all your tags

    Now for my 140K images, the difference in speed is enormous. Brand X will display the images within a few seconds or so. C1 will take several minutes.

    For the filter problem, I opened the date (it was the Xmas Album again) and it showed every year month and individual day that is in use (ie fully expended) within a small scrollable window bottom right If I close the date tag, it closes them all and you lose the date selection. So unfortunately the choice is fully expanded or none, there is no in between.

    As an experiment I selected all images (65K) waited for it to count them all, then opened the date. As mentioned it opened every single year/month/day So I started to collapse the years. There appears to be more problems here as I get the swirly windows working icon and there is a pause, at times up to 10 seconds before I will collapse a year, No idea why this is not instantaneous.

    If I close the dates filter, and re-open, it remembers the years that I collapsed so that was good.

    Now the limitations in Express means that it has no float for the controls, instead it gives the option to move the tool to the “Scrollable area�. Choosing this does not appear to do anything that I can see . The screen flashes and the filer box moves up a small amount but is still a pretty small window and cannot be moved.

    Now as I have several projects with albums to speed things up, I thought I would try collapsing these to see if the filters box would expand to fill the gap. It does to an extent, but all my images disappeared as C1 assumes I have not selected an Album, so that idea is out.

    For the full screen problem, I tried the F10 viewer, unfortunately this does not exist in express version, however the slide show option is a workaround

    To answer the question on stacking, In my collection I have in some cases several versions of the same image, edited by various means over the years, These are all physical images, of varying type (raw, tiff, jpeg, psd) That I always stacked together with the prime one used as the thumbnail. Unfortunately express version does not have this facility and the paid version only (from my understanding) does this with variants not physicals.

    Incidentally, I found another bug this morning. If you have a duplicate filename loaded, you get two different thumbnails, but they both point to only one of the images. If C1 cannot handle dupes then the “check for dup� option should be mandatory.

    So as you see chaps, C1 is a bit lacking in the areas that I require. I will remove the catolog (Express can only use one, you cannot have several) and just use it for experimenting with Fuji film simulations.

    Thanks all for chiming in. I wanted to like C1 but its just too clunky. On the plus side tho, what attracted me to the software apart from Fuji film simulations was the ease of edits. I just love the simplicity of quick edits. I do not do heavy editing so the express cut-down was pretty much most of what I wanted. I just wish they would get their database design fixed and I would be a buyer.

    Steve
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  • Ian
    SFA wrote:
    As I use sessions and mostly they have many shots taken in a short period or not many shots taken over a longer period but not all that many dates, I don't experience the same sort of time related performance problems on start up.

    If you don't use an internal SSD as your drive I would heartily suggest you consider it for many reasons well beyond the use of C1.


    Switching to SSD drives to solve this problem is really not a good solution. Of course SSD drives are faster and that's great. The issue is C1 is touching files for some reason when the other applications mentioned are not. Just because switching to an SSD drive could take the time to display a large number of images from 10minutes to 1mintue or 30s is not a reason to make that the solution. Other applications like LR and from what Steve said DarkTable do not suffer from this which means that when they are processing files with an SSD drive they will be returning results even faster. C1 will continue to be slower than the others and the performance profile will be worse and worse the more files you have while the others will not suffer from that because they are correctly getting their results from their catalog database and not touching every file.
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  • SFA
    IanL wrote:
    SFA wrote:
    As I use sessions and mostly they have many shots taken in a short period or not many shots taken over a longer period but not all that many dates, I don't experience the same sort of time related performance problems on start up.

    If you don't use an internal SSD as your drive I would heartily suggest you consider it for many reasons well beyond the use of C1.


    Switching to SSD drives to solve this problem is really not a good solution. Of course SSD drives are faster and that's great. The issue is C1 is touching files for some reason when the other applications mentioned are not. Just because switching to an SSD drive could take the time to display a large number of images from 10minutes to 1mintue or 30s is not a reason to make that the solution. Other applications like LR and from what Steve said DarkTable do not suffer from this which means that when they are processing files with an SSD drive they will be returning results even faster. C1 will continue to be slower than the others and the performance profile will be worse and worse the more files you have while the others will not suffer from that because they are correctly getting their results from their catalog database and not touching every file.


    Maybe Ian.

    But my 7 year old always SSD equipped laptop boots Windows really quickly - still today as it always has - and puts up with absurdly low levels of free disk space that spinning drives would not tolerate.

    It's not just editing for which an SSD offers an advantage. It's the whole package.

    LR, in the early days (no idea about now) always appeared fast compared to other applications I used at the time. However I think the developers were being really clever with their approach (for the times) and effectively doing nearly all of the adjustments on the preview file - or a representation of the preview file - using as little memory as possible.

    On screen results seemed almost instantaneous even some rather poverty specification machines. But moving to the next activity mostly seemed to induce a slight delay.

    If one looked closely after the "instant" adjustment display one could see adjustments continuing around the screen in small segments for a short period. So it looked fast by comparison with another application I liked at the time but wasn't really.

    The other application waited until all of its processing was down and loaded the results to the screen. Start to end (i.e. completed processing and a file that could be saved) there was no discernable speed advantage for one over the other if attempting the same type of edited using the equivalent tools each application offered.

    But LR 'looked' much more responsive.

    SSD drives are not a panacea for everything by any means but in terms of the way loading a large catalogue would be likely to work they should show an improvement - perhaps a disproportionate improvement compared to other application that maybe take a very different approach in order to appear fast to the users.

    They are also quite inexpensive these days - which helps the argument somewhat!


    Grant
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  • BeO
    Steve, no matter if you want read further, allow yourself the joy of SSDs, at least for the Windows drive, regardless of C1.
    And, nobody here has any issue with your decision, if I may speak for the other chaps as well. But read on, you might find some interesting information here...

    C1 does indeed not have a well performing catalog for huge numbers of images, I think nobody would really argue differently. Btw., I assume, Steve, you have hopefully referenced the raw files, tiffs etc, and not imported into the catalog file physically, right?

    C1 comes from the sessions and I believe most pros use them instead of catalogs, not sure though. This is a neat concept for event based image management. Catalogs were implemented later as many wanted them, from what I understood from other people here. This is no excuse for inferior catalogs, just might answer Steves question how C1 can be a pro software.


    Surely, IanL, C1 will always be slower than other software which today is faster, unless the other software will quirk their product or Phase One will invest in a catalog performance project. But C1 does not have to be faster or equally fast, just fast enough, and it is for me, but not for huge numbers of images and maybe not for others.

    Similarly, other raw developers don't need to create the same image quality or have the same great editing tools or customization options, they just need to be great and nice enough.

    It is a matter of taste, priorities, and sometimes what you are used to, and if you are willing to change the way you work to circumvent limitations or weaknesses. And sometimes you just can't because something is just too important for you.

    If I could have the speed of the LR catalog, the stacking, grouping and stichting (which I believe LR can do meanwhile), and all the rest from C1, without a subscription model, no question I would buy in.

    Steve, there are people who use a software for cataloging and C1 as the raw developer, I am not one of those so I cannot give advice here, but if you like the image quality for your Fuji files it might be worthwhile to explore such a workflow in more detail.

    If you settle for a different software just let us know, I at least would be interested to know.

    Regards BeO
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  • Ian
    BeO wrote:
    Surely, IanL, C1 will always be slower than other software which today is faster, unless the other software will quirk their product or Phase One will invest in a catalog performance project. But C1 does not have to be faster or equally fast, just fast enough, and it is for me, but not for huge numbers of images and maybe not for others.


    Absolutely. For me the catalogue searching 64 000 images takes 15 minutes to finish - the searching. It does show results as it finds things, so its not totally dark for that time. There are also strategies that mitigate that which I am using. There is also the strategy of switching to SSDs that I am not using simply because I have prioritized spending $ on other things over buying large or numerous SSDs.

    BeO wrote:
    Similarly, other raw developers don't need to create the same image quality or have the same great editing tools or customization options, they just need to be great and nice enough.

    It is a matter of taste, priorities, and sometimes what you are used to, and if you are willing to change the way you work to circumvent limitations or weaknesses. And sometimes you just can't because something is just too important for you.


    Again yes, I prefer using layers for my editing and really enjoy the way C1 works for editing of images. I have found that using smart albums to segment the populations of all images at a high level (by year or by key word) allows the searching to be good enough. I could not stand to wait 15 minutes any time I was looking for something but I can deal with 3 to 5 minutes. But let's be clear I don't believe that is very good either It's just not so bad that I would want to abandon everything else.

    My main issue with the search performance isn't that it is slower than product X or Y, it's that it is really bad and the product seems to be touching every file - which is absolutely not necessary. To me the poor search performance is not just another item that I would like them to add or improve there is something wrong with the way things are designed or written. What I mean is that if C1 was even twice as slow as LR or Darktable or PhotoMechanic sure I would like to see improvements but it would just be another item on the list but its current performance is in a different realm.

    Like I have said in the past I did have a support case going with C1 that kinda went cold because I was busy and could not follow up on some things they asked. Now that I am updated to v20 I am ready to work some more towards helping to get to the bottom of it to be sure there is nothing I have in my environment that is causing any part of the problem and help them to understand where their product is falling down. Right now I am not keen on starting that up again given the backlog they seem to have in support right now.

    BeO wrote:
    If I could have the speed of the LR catalog, the stacking, grouping and stichting (which I believe LR can do meanwhile), and all the rest from C1, without a subscription model, no question I would buy in.


    You have hit my feature list pretty much in my priority order. I hope that Phase one will work on some number of improvements to C1 in those areas as the product moves forward.
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  • Ian
    SFA wrote:
    Maybe Ian.

    But my 7 year old always SSD equipped laptop boots Windows really quickly - still today as it always has - and puts up with absurdly low levels of free disk space that spinning drives would not tolerate.

    It's not just editing for which an SSD offers an advantage. It's the whole package.


    Absolutely SSDs are super I would never consider buying a computer without one. My last machine has one for the OS and installed apps but it is pretty small because they were really pricey back then. That same machine has a 1Tb HDD for my personal files but that is not big enough for my photo collection. For that I have a 4Tb drive (and matching sizes for backups).

    A 4Tb SSD is between $600 and $1200. Yeah that's not going happen - for me I have three or four lenses on my list I would like before that not to mention a trip or two would have a higher priority. As it has been said its all about priorities and how each of us order them.

    My main point is not that SSDs would not improve things - I know it would. The main point is that searching even 200 000 entities in a database should not take 15 minutes even if said database resides on a HDD.
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  • Ian
    Oh yeah I should mention that there are anecdotal indications that the Mac version does not suffer from this. This came up again just today:
    [The Capture One forum has migrated to a new platform, as a result all links to Capture One related postsstopped working and have been removed]&view=unread#p178021

    Here is a Mac users saying that he can search all images in his 22 000 image catalogue in sub 5s and that 70 000 without any complaints. This would be fine but I do not experience that on my Windows box.

    Like I said I would be happy with a change to install or configuration that would fix this for me but I do not believe that will be the case - in my previous work with support we went through a list of items that either turned out to be set correctly on my machine or did not make a meaningful difference. I would like to finish that work with them so they can either fix things for me or acknowledge they have a bug.
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  • BeO
    Fully agree, IanL.

    Once I hit 3 minutes for a search I will change the way I work, fortunately the number of images in my catalog in relaion to my hardware gives me some headroom. I am not as patient as you I assume... 😕
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  • NNN636736407392568005
    Hi chaps,

    Sorry only just caught up on the thread. To answer a couple of questions, yes I do have an 0.5 TB M2 SSD as my operational "C" drive for the operating system and choice programs that benefit from extra speed. C1 is installed on this drive but the main catalog, previews etc are stored on a standard hard drive, apologies I should have mentioned this before.

    As to internal or external referencing, when I first started to trial the software I experimented with using the internal catalog to import images, I pretty soon gave that idea up and instead reference the images in their current locations.

    Sessions sounds interesting but is not available in the express version, and multiple catalogs cannot be used either, you get just the one. However after all these years of building up my collection, of which a lot revolves around family, I do not think I could split it up much now anyhow.

    Speedwise, editing and the edit workflow appears fine, I cannot fault this and as I mentioned before, I love the ease and flow of editing images, its pretty neat. It is the database itself that is at fault and as a (now retired) software designer/developer/you name it I did it guy, I fully agree with Ian's observations. I must also add that It is not only searches that are pretty abysmal, if I move images to the trash, its go make a cup of tea while it churns away and these sort of activities should be done in seconds.

    Its really a pity, I a do like the edit workflow, and I would have some good uses for the export recipes that I have read about. Maybe I'll have another bash Monday

    Thanks all

    Steve
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  • Matteo

    Showing all filter antries by default is (of course) a very bad idea! Just look at places filter which shows the location metadata entries. I have 60 K images in the cataloge and everytim eI open the places filter I have to dearch through hundreds of folders and subfolder to get to where I want to. I'm afraid this is (like other catalog functions) not useful and lacks behind Lightroom.

    PLEASE make that default to collapse all filters! Or much better make it selectable or a menu entry or a button press. It's just horrible the way it is right now!

     

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  • SFA

    Matteo,

    There is now a dedicated forum section for Feature Requests.

    You might wish to add your suggestion there?

     

    In the meantime if you do not want to see a list of all entries in a default active filter you could either disable the default display of that filter  or, as a one time action after creating a new session or (I assume) catalog, minimise the expanded filter and leave it like that when closing the session/catalog. It should then stay minimised next time you open the session or catalog (providing you have not in the meantime totally replaced the C1 working user preferences file).

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