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tool functionality in layers

NNN634248485356566063
Hi! Just purchased capture one 20 and so happy that finally levels, colour balance and colour editor have opacity functionality in layers!!! Been waiting for this for a very very long time! 😄
Is it possible for new version to have a symbol/colour on the tool to show whether it has opacity functionality in layers?
Ideally it would be better for all tools to have opacity functionality in layers but at the moment you can't tell which is possible and which does not....
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14 comments

Date Votes
  • SFA
    NNN634248485356566063 wrote:
    Hi! Just purchased capture one 20 and so happy that finally levels, colour balance and colour editor have opacity functionality in layers!!! Been waiting for this for a very very long time! 😄
    Is it possible for new version to have a symbol/colour on the tool to show whether it has opacity functionality in layers?
    Ideally it would be better for all tools to have opacity functionality in layers but at the moment you can't tell which is possible and which does not....


    The Layer opacity adjustment has been around for a while. It's not new to V20.

    The adjustment applies to the layer and every tool on it.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • NNN634248485356566063
    Yes layer opacity has been around for a while but certain tools didn't function on layers. I'm aware of this!
    Hence the request for coloured tools/banner or symbol to show what works and what does not.
    Say film grain. Doesn't work on layers. Can't tell without trying to remember what works. It's a pain in the butt.
    As I said the best option would to have all tools function on layers but they don't. So that should be shown.
    I don't know whether c1 limits these functions because it wants us to constantly upgrade but if this is the reason at least make it easier for us to see what currently functions.
    In reality if c1 wants to be a retouching tool as well as a raw converter / streamlined workflow tool it shouldn't sandbag layers functionality.
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  • NNN634248485356566063
    Sorry though Grant... I re-read my original post and it sounded like I had only just discovered that opacity works with the functioning tools in layers. I knew that it did but was happy at the addition of colour editor and colour balance or whatever is new....
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  • SFA
    NNN634248485356566063 wrote:
    Sorry though Grant... I re-read my original post and it sounded like I had only just discovered that opacity works with the functioning tools in layers. I knew that it did but was happy at the addition of colour editor and colour balance or whatever is new....


    Ah!

    Ok, I did wonder about that when I read your comment but decided it would be best to answer the original without adding that slight complication - just in case I was going to make the reply too confusing!

    I agree about the inclusion of the extra tools. It may not seem like much in a list of new features but the benefits may be greater than is obvious at first.


    Grant
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  • NNN634248485356566063
    SFA wrote:
    NNN634248485356566063 wrote:
    Sorry though Grant... I re-read my original post and it sounded like I had only just discovered that opacity works with the functioning tools in layers. I knew that it did but was happy at the addition of colour editor and colour balance or whatever is new....


    Ah!

    Ok, I did wonder about that when I read your comment but decided it would be best to answer the original without adding that slight complication - just in case I was going to make the reply too confusing!

    I agree about the inclusion of the extra tools. It may not seem like much in a list of new features but the benefits may be greater than is obvious at first.


    Grant


    I hate to say it but I think it's pretty obvious that these additions will be a huge asset to layer functionality. Previously I couldn't do all my colour work in C1 and had to use photoshop for some things; now I think I can. (i do a lot of de-saturation colour work)
    C1 probably should have implemented all tool functionality on layers from the start of layer implementation. It would certainly make the program much more simple to understand and much quicker to use, especially if the user has an understanding of photoshop.

    I think that the way capture one is structured at the moment is a mix between shoot workflow (multiple tabs) and retouching (layers) it should focus on the layers as an integral part of the shoot colour workflow. A first step in the shoot process rather than something that is seen as a later part in the workflow. A one stop shop tab that allows you do all of your colour work, styles, retouching and output looks. To my mind limiting it's functionality really limits a smooth workflow. I find it a real pain that now the mix of tabs and layers and styles. (its the best there is but could be better!)

    It would also be a huge asset to have the ability (with all layers functionality) to have a variant type of workflow in the layer function (options of looks that you can switch on and off with one click)..(you can probably make styles and do this currently but that is a step further in workflow that could be solved) C1 should also just downright copy the group layer function of photoshop.... the ability to see your edits within the layer. That would be amazing.
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  • SFA
    NNN634248485356566063 wrote:
    SFA wrote:
    NNN634248485356566063 wrote:
    Sorry though Grant... I re-read my original post and it sounded like I had only just discovered that opacity works with the functioning tools in layers. I knew that it did but was happy at the addition of colour editor and colour balance or whatever is new....


    Ah!

    Ok, I did wonder about that when I read your comment but decided it would be best to answer the original without adding that slight complication - just in case I was going to make the reply too confusing!

    I agree about the inclusion of the extra tools. It may not seem like much in a list of new features but the benefits may be greater than is obvious at first.


    Grant


    I hate to say it but I think it's pretty obvious that these additions will be a huge asset to layer functionality. Previously I couldn't do all my colour work in C1 and had to use photoshop for some things; now I think I can. (i do a lot of de-saturation colour work)
    C1 probably should have implemented all tool functionality on layers from the start of layer implementation. It would certainly make the program much more simple to understand and much quicker to use, especially if the user has an understanding of photoshop.

    I think that the way capture one is structured at the moment is a mix between shoot workflow (multiple tabs) and retouching (layers) it should focus on the layers as an integral part of the shoot colour workflow. A first step in the shoot process rather than something that is seen as a later part in the workflow. A one stop shop tab that allows you do all of your colour work, styles, retouching and output looks. To my mind limiting it's functionality really limits a smooth workflow. I find it a real pain that now the mix of tabs and layers and styles. (its the best there is but could be better!)

    It would also be a huge asset to have the ability (with all layers functionality) to have a variant type of workflow in the layer function (options of looks that you can switch on and off with one click)..(you can probably make styles and do this currently but that is a step further in workflow that could be solved) C1 should also just downright copy the group layer function of photoshop.... the ability to see your edits within the layer. That would be amazing.


    Create your own tabs - and workspace? And custom Keyboard Shortcuts perhaps?

    On a personal note - please don't suggest making C1 more like Photoshop (which in an case is not a RAW converter).

    I have never managed to get to grips with what to me is the very convoluted way of controlling layers in PS or its look alike products. Even going back almost 20 years I recall sitting with a couple of friends and a lavishly printed full colour fully illustrated guide to using Photoshop and none of could really grasp how to do things.

    It may be great for graphics artists but if that is all there was available I would probably abandon photography completely.


    Grant
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    NNN634248485356566063 wrote:
    ...
    Is it possible for new version to have a symbol/colour on the tool to show whether it has opacity functionality in layers?

    When on a layer, that is that a layer is selected, tools that operate on that layer have a small brush icon in the header of the tool, next to its name.

    In case you are interested, I made a brief overview of tools that work on a layer and when it was introduced.

    Layers were introduced in Capture One 6. During the lifetime of that version the supported tools evolved and the last release (6.4.5) supported these tools:
    * Exposure
    * Color Editor (only Advanced, Skin Tone, not Basic)
    * Sharpening (only Amount slider)
    * Moire
    * Clarity

    Capture One 7 did not add new tools on layers, but added a workflow feature ‘Adjust Selected Layer’ to make the tool operate either on the adjustments layer or the background layer.

    Capture One 8 add new tools to layers:
    * HDR
    * White Balance
    * Noise Reduction
    * Purple Fringing
    This version also introduced heal and clone layers in addition to adjustments layers. Also new is the selection point for navigation per layer.

    Capture One 9 add one new tool to use on layers:
    * Curve, including the newly introduced Luma Curve

    Capture One 10 did not add new layer features.

    Capture One 11 redesigned the layers feature. The Local Adjustments tab has gone and replaced by a new layer tool. New tools on layers are:
    * Color Balance
    * Levels
    In addition now Presets and Styles can be used on layers and the Clarity method may now differ from the Background layer. Also layer opacity was introduced.
    In 11.1 an additional command to apply a style on a new layer was added.

    Capture One 12 added two new gradient masking tools, Linear and Radial and a Luma Range feature to mask based on luminosity.

    Capture One 20 reworked the Basic Color Editor and support for this editor on layers.

    Tools that do not work are currently (Capture One 20):
    * Film Grain
    * Black & White
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  • NNN634248485356566063
    Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
    NNN634248485356566063 wrote:
    ...
    Is it possible for new version to have a symbol/colour on the tool to show whether it has opacity functionality in layers?

    When on a layer, that is that a layer is selected, tools that operate on that layer have a small brush icon in the header of the tool, next to its name.

    In case you are interested, I brief overview of tools that work on a layer and when it was introduced.

    Paul! Thank you for this... All these years and I never noticed!
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  • NNN634248485356566063
    Create you own tabs - and workspace? And custom Keyboard Shortcuts perhaps?

    On a personal note - please don't suggest making C1 more like Photoshop (which in an case is not a RAW converter).

    I have never managed to get to grips with what to me is the very convoluted way of controlling layers in PS or its look alike products. Even going back almost 20 years I recall sitting with a couple of friends and a lavishly printed full colour fully illustrated guide to using Photoshop and none of could really grasp how to do things.

    It may be great for graphics artists but if that is all there was available I would probably abandon photography completely.


    Grant

    Hmm... well I think the idea that capture one is solely a raw converter is a think of the past. It's clearly trying to be a raw converter as well as a poor version of photoshop (implementing layers is a perfect example). As you can see from where it stands today. it wants to cover shoot workflow as well as retouching all the way to digital asset management.
    I would think that almost all of the professional retouchers these days use photoshop and c1 and actually as a photographer retouching is one of the first thoughts on my mind when capturing imagery and also going through the raw conversion process. If it wants us to retouch implement it properly.
    Thats why i think that it's not a bad idea to expand the layers functionality to a point where it equals photoshop.
    Why try and re-invent the wheel?
    All capture one needs to do is add the ability for all "creative" functions from white balance/film grain/styles/ levels curves etc to function in layers and the ability for users to see these functions within a layer, an ability to group them and also to have their own opacity sliders. Just like photoshop.
    Job done.
    It seems to me that c1 has been avoiding this integration (basically copying) just because it wants to be different. It's slowly moving there and making us pay (a lot for small increments) for something that is perfectly obvious. Take styles for example. It's just a package (group of adjustment layers in photoshop) of adjustments. A great implementation in the context within the tabbed workflow but in the context of retouching / layers almost pointless.
    All it really is is a layout issue in c1.... The ability to drag and drop the tools in a layer group and all done.
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  • SFA
    The comparison should really be with Lightroom not Photoshop.

    Go the photoshop route and you would soon be expected to deliver all of the graphics manipulation functions and artwork tools. People would expect it.

    If you take, for example, Affinity Photo as a similar-to-Photoshop product you can see how it has a "Develop" stage that allows some photo image manipulation from the original file (including RAW files) but then requires an output file to continue to the Photoshop like functions and all of the blending functionality.

    C1, by comparison, always works from the original file.

    It's just no the same game. That, presumably, is part of the reason why Lightroom and Photoshop are related to each other in the way they are rather than being entirely integrated in a single product.

    Effectively the Layer is the ability to group the tools, in combination, that one wishes to use to adjust the same areas of the image. A style is just a presets based continuation of that concept.

    As for the tools - I think most tools that are logically usable for masked and layered type adjustments are now available for use in the layers concept. Personally I cannot see the Capture One team, in its current iteration, seeing a business opportunity in trying to create a PS like graphics editor from nothing. For a start the competition would not be Adobe but more likely Serif with the Affinity suite. In which case the price point does not look very attractive, in my opinion, as a catalyst to invest a significant sum in a pixel editor.

    I have never heard anyone form C1 suggest there should be no need to make use of PS or a similar product of choice for full re-touching. In fact the opposite - in general the recommendation for large scale retouching is to go to Photoshop.

    However for some, like me, who rarely needs to go to the level of PS retouching, image stacking or panorama stitching that the graphics systems offer, C1 offers more than enough most of the time. And from my point of view it does so intuitively - unlike PS.


    Grant
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  • Ian Leslie
    Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
    Tools that do not work are currently (Capture One 20):
    * Film Grain
    * Black & White


    I am so hoping that the black and white conversion gets the ability to go on a layer. I would really like to have that tool's control and be able to mask the effect.

    Yes, I have put in my request to support - long ago when I first started using C1.
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  • SFA
    IanL wrote:
    Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
    Tools that do not work are currently (Capture One 20):
    * Film Grain
    * Black & White


    I am so hoping that the black and white conversion gets the ability to go on a layer. I would really like to have that tool's control and be able to mask the effect.

    Yes, I have put in my request to support - long ago when I first started using C1.


    Just a thought - could you achieve that now, to a reasonable extent, by using a layer with Exposure Saturation turned right down and then manipulating the other tools?

    It occurs to me that using the new Basic Colour adjustment tool might be fairly close to the sort of adjustments that the B&W tool can deliver and with certain favoured combinations set up as styles and applied to layers you may be able to create something that can be quickly applied and get the same, or almost the same, effect.

    It would also allow for Spot colour ... but I'm not suggesting that you should ever consider such a thing!


    Grant
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  • Ian Leslie
    SFA wrote:

    It occurs to me that using the new Basic Colour adjustment tool might be fairly close to the sort of adjustments that the B&W tool can deliver and with certain favoured combinations set up as styles and applied to layers you may be able to create something that can be quickly applied and get the same, or almost the same, effect.


    Yeah, that is on my list of stuff to try. I'm only just starting to think about B&W - I've always been a colour guy and what you are talking about is near the to of my list of things to try.

    SFA wrote:
    It would also allow for Spot colour ... but I'm not suggesting that you should ever consider such a thing!


    Oh but I am considering it 😄
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  • SFA
    IanL wrote:
    SFA wrote:

    It occurs to me that using the new Basic Colour adjustment tool might be fairly close to the sort of adjustments that the B&W tool can deliver and with certain favoured combinations set up as styles and applied to layers you may be able to create something that can be quickly applied and get the same, or almost the same, effect.


    Yeah, that is on my list of stuff to try. I'm only just starting to think about B&W - I've always been a colour guy and what you are talking about is near the to of my list of things to try.

    SFA wrote:
    It would also allow for Spot colour ... but I'm not suggesting that you should ever consider such a thing!


    Oh but I am considering it 😄



    Aaargh!

    But there are some presets for that. Using the colour editor. So they work on layers. Only 3 though.

    However one can then tweak one's own settings to suit the requirement.


    Grant
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