Keystone malfunction (request #15943)

Comments

34 comments

  • Official comment
    Jack

    Hi everyone - just a quick note from me on this.

    The keystone tool is not exactly a simple tool to affect or change, especially within a single release cycle - I understand that we were contacted some months ago but these things can and will take some time.

    I would therefore encourage you all to make separate support requests and provide RAW files where the Keystone tool does not work as expected (EIP files would be even better) - I will handle these personally and ensure that your concerns, comments and any other information you can provide is forwarded on to the right people.

    However, we of course cannot provide updates on any bug fixes or changes in Capture One, as that would be strictly against our Support policy and it'd probably have bad consequences for me.

    I hope that we can address this in a future release not too far down the line. But I can't say any further than that and encourage you to contact us in Support, whereby I hope you can trust that we will do our part to make Capture One the best it can be.

    All the best and hope you're all well.

    - Jack

     

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    Just to give an example of what this is about so that it's absolutely clear.

    Here's a model of something you would potentially want to correct in an actual photo, a four-sided figure that should have had 90° angles:



    Here it is before applying corrections in Capture One:



    And here it is after pressing Apply – obviously not the result you would expect:



    And this is how it looks when adjusted in Lightroom – the rectangle you would have expected from Capture One too:



    Here's the example file in case anyone wants to try for themselves: https://i.imgur.com/GW5thjc.jpg

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  • Keith Reeder
    Who are you talking to, Thomas? This is a user-to-user forum.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Keith Reeder wrote:
    Who are you talking to, Thomas? This is a user-to-user forum.

    I know. I suggested elsewhere ([The Capture One forum has migrated to a new platform, as a result all links to Capture One related postsstopped working and have been removed]&start=105#p176641) that since users don't have access to support requests, feature requests and bug reports, not even their own, it would perhaps be a good idea to post them here, just for reference, so other users know what has been reported/requested and to make request numbers available for reference too.

    This way other users would also be able to refer to reports/requests made by other users when contacting support themselves.
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  • Jerry C
    Regarding the unexpected 4-point keystone "correction" producing a parallelogram where a rectangle would be expected:

    I can see this, but not always. When it happens, I can get the correction to work by separately correcting the horizontal and then the vertical. If anything, I would expect the simultaneous 4-point correction to work better. A 4-point correction should have the same result as two 2-point corrections. Perhaps if you report this to support, they will accept that it is a bug and not a user error since it is completely reproducible, cannot be construed as a feature, and needs to be fixed if the 4-point keystone correction is to work reliably.

    Jerry C
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    NN635680879799322049UL wrote:
    Regarding the unexpected 4-point keystone "correction" producing a parallelogram where a rectangle would be expected:

    I can see this, but not always. When it happens, I can get the correction to work by separately correcting the horizontal and then the vertical. If anything, I would expect the simultaneous 4-point correction to work better. A 4-point correction should have the same result as two 2-point corrections. Perhaps if you report this to support, they will accept that it is a bug and not a user error since it is completely reproducible, cannot be construed as a feature, and needs to be fixed if the 4-point keystone correction is to work reliably.

    Jerry C

    Yes, it's definitely reproducible.

    I just tried correcting the file in the example above in two separate stages, vertically and then horizontally, and the other way around too, and this way I get two different results, none of them correct though.

    In the last email I got from the guy who responded to my support request, he said that he'd forward the request and info to "the R&D and Product Management team as something to review for future releases". Hopefully they'll do something about it soon.
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  • Grant Hodgeon
    Keith Reeder wrote:
    Who are you talking to, Thomas? This is a user-to-user forum.


    What a useless comment.

    Hi Thomas, I tried reproducing this in the latest release with the same results. Thanks for sharing. I'll submit a report to concur. Wouldn't bet on a fix within a reasonable/professional time frame however.
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  • Jerry C
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    NN635680879799322049UL wrote:
    Regarding the unexpected 4-point keystone "correction" producing a parallelogram where a rectangle would be expected:

    I can see this, but not always. When it happens, I can get the correction to work by separately correcting the horizontal and then the vertical. If anything, I would expect the simultaneous 4-point correction to work better. A 4-point correction should have the same result as two 2-point corrections. Perhaps if you report this to support, they will accept that it is a bug and not a user error since it is completely reproducible, cannot be construed as a feature, and needs to be fixed if the 4-point keystone correction is to work reliably.

    Jerry C

    Yes, it's definitely reproducible.

    I just tried correcting the file in the example above in two separate stages, vertically and then horizontally, and the other way around too, and this way I get two different results, none of them correct though.

    In the last email I got from the guy who responded to my support request, he said that he'd forward the request and info to "the R&D and Product Management team as something to review for future releases". Hopefully they'll do something about it soon.


    I thought the 2-step correction looked rectangular compared with the single 4-point correction, but I did not look at it except to eyeball it.

    When support tells you they are forwarding it to R&D, sometimes it gets fixed in the next iteration, especially when it is reproducible, as this one is.

    Jerry C
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    photoGrant wrote:
    Hi Thomas, I tried reproducing this in the latest release with the same results. Thanks for sharing. I'll submit a report to concur. Wouldn't bet on a fix within a reasonable/professional time frame however.

    Hi Grant. Thanks for your comment – and for confirming. I'm sure you're right, this will require a great deal of patience.
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  • Grant Hodgeon
    Hi Thomas,

    This is still prevalent in 13.0.2.19 (latest build release Jan 27 2020).

    I submitted a report.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    photoGrant wrote:
    Hi Thomas,

    This is still prevalent in 13.0.2.19 (latest build release Jan 27 2020).

    I submitted a report.

    Hi Grant,
    Yes, it was the first thing I checked after updating. It will probably take a while before this will be fixed. If it will be fixed. At least they're aware of it now.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    I asked about a fix on Facebook and got the reply that the "Keystone tool is not intended to work in the way that you are suggesting". If this is the case, does anyone know how it is intended to work?
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    I asked about a fix on Facebook and got the reply that the "Keystone tool is not intended to work in the way that you are suggesting". If this is the case, does anyone know how it is intended to work?

    I just received another message from support about this. It seems they're looking into it.
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  • Grant Hodgeon
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    I asked about a fix on Facebook and got the reply that the "Keystone tool is not intended to work in the way that you are suggesting". If this is the case, does anyone know how it is intended to work?

    I just received another message from support about this. It seems they're looking into it.


    Yeah if this working as designed... I'm not sure what its objective is.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    photoGrant wrote:
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    I asked about a fix on Facebook and got the reply that the "Keystone tool is not intended to work in the way that you are suggesting". If this is the case, does anyone know how it is intended to work?

    I just received another message from support about this. It seems they're looking into it.


    Yeah if this working as designed... I'm not sure what its objective is.

    I just received another reply from support saying the ticket has "highest priority". So there's no doubt that they recognize the issue now. A very positive development.
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  • i5963c

    Hello,

    Personally, I'm not convinced whether there is really a problem with the keystone correction in Capture One. In my view, 'keystone correction' should only serve the 'correction' (in post processing) of perspective transformations, equivalent to what can be achieved 'in camera' with a tilt shift lens. The mathematics behind such corrections are a completely different problem than 'converting an arbitrary quadrangle into a rectangle'. Such conversions don't follow the rules of perspective, i.e. they are basically just a case of 'pixel shifting', and should therefore preferably be done with a pixel editor (in my view).

    Looking at the example that is provided in this thread, it appears to me that this quadrangle can never represent the perspective deformation of a rectangular object(*).

    Unfortunately, I can't verify the use of the Keystone tool for this particular file in Capture One myself, because I can't open this file in my version of Capture One (i.e. Pro for Sony). However, I checked quite a number of 'real' perspective transformations, and I didn't encounter major problems (although I must admit that the results are very sensitive to the exact placement of the vertical and horizontal lines).

    In order to make progress with the topic of this thread, I therefore believe that it's important to rely upon pictures taken from real rectangular objects.

    Also, it's very unclear what is the exact meaning and purpose of the multiple parameters in this module. The helpfile is (as often with Capture One) also of zero use to clarify these parameters...

     

    (*) The distance between both vertical lines is larger at the top than at the bottom side of the quadrangle. In line with the rules of perspective, this implies that the horizon through the camera lies above the quadrangle (i.e. the camera must be looking downwards when taking a picture of the rectangular object). Next, the rules of perspective also specify that parallel horizontal lines must intersect with each other on this horizon line. Looking at the quadrangle in the provided jpg-files, it's obvious that the horizontal lines intersect way below this horizon. Therefore, I believe that the form of the quadrangle in the jpg-file can't represent a rectangular object in real life.

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    "Personally, I'm not convinced whether there is really a problem with the keystone correction in Capture One. In my view, 'keystone correction' should only serve the 'correction' (in post processing) of perspective transformations, equivalent to what can be achieved 'in camera' with a tilt shift lens. The mathematics behind such corrections are a completely different problem than 'converting an arbitrary quadrangle into a rectangle'. Such conversions don't follow the rules of perspective, i.e. they are basically just a case of 'pixel shifting', and should therefore preferably be done with a pixel editor (in my view)."

    There most definitely is a problem. Horizontal keystone correction works, as does vertical keystone correction. But in most cases, simultaneous vertical and horizontal keystone correction does not work; what you get is parallelograms rather than rectangles, and this goes for photos of actual rectangular shapes too. The origin of the shape that is being corrected is irrelevant.

    Clearly, the object of simultaneous vertical and horizontal keystone correction is to turn the four-sided figure indicated by the four adjustment points into a rectangle with two horizontal sides and two vertical sides. This works in Lightroom every time, and I don't see why it shouldn't work in Capture One. As long as it doesn't, it should be safe to say that this feature is broken, regardless of what underlying process is required by such adjustments. 

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  • Clau_S

    The fact is that when you use only vertical or horizontal adjustment, CO provides your lines to be parallel through perspective transformation(s) and makes them exactly vertical/horizontal through rotation. Squaring a parallelogram (be it real or due to perspective) is not possible with just a rotation setting. Only one or the other, between vertical and horizontal lines, can be rotated to match exactly the respective inclination. Having them perpendicular requires a skew parameter which is not present in Keystone tool. Actually it is missing in Lightroom too as a slider (you can't square a parallelogram through sliders) but a skew transformation can be obtained through Guided upright tool. However, as opposed to CO, when you use guides in Lightroom, sliders don't move and you can further alter the resulting image. It's like Lightroom has two different transformation tools (sliders and guided upright tool) whereas CO has only one. Guides in CO only serve as a GUI for sliders.

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    It's been five months already. I'm still very much hoping that this issue will be fixed.

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  • Leo FABRIZIO

    6 month later....

    Same problem here. Long time issue, I was guessing I was doing something wrong, happy to read this here.

    This problem drive me nuts. Simple case, I did art work reproduction In Situ and in despite of a very controlled set up, famed artworks are not perfectly rectangular. That is normally a simple fix with keystone correction and a simple job. But just not working at all!

    Yes, I can easily do it manually on photoshop... but on 75+ artwork reproduction to check-up in PS slowdown very much my workflow.

    Thomas, on what kind of files are you working on? I already noticed the keystone tools have bugs on Raw files (fuji or Nikon for what I have tested) that does not appears on my phase one IIQ files...

     

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    I work with raw files, but this issue is not specific to any particular file type.

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  • SFA

    Leo,

    Phase cameras and back (except perhaps some older ones) have the ability to store information that makes even Automatic Keystone correction. Other cameras do not have this data or if they do Capture One does not have access to it.

    Might your impressions about functionality be influenced by that factor?

    Are you also taking into account Aspect correction as well as you particular needs for re-shaping by Keystone correction?

    It may well be that your needs require a pixel manipulation tool like Photoshop rather than a RAW converter like Capture One.

    Either that or consideration of something like the Cultural Heritage version of C1 although from what I know of it I suspect that your "in situ" requirements may make it a non starter even if its overall functionality is in line with your needs.

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    "It may well be that your needs require a pixel manipulation tool like Photoshop rather than a RAW converter like Capture One."

    The keystone tool doesn't work as it's supposed to; this has been confirmed by Capture One support. With all respect, there's no reason to start contesting this simple fact again.

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  • Leo FABRIZIO

    "The keystone tool doesn't work as it's supposed to; this has been confirmed by Capture One support. With all respect, there's no reason to start contesting this simple fact again."

    Agree with Thomas Kyhn, the keystone tool fail to do the job is suppose to do.

    I am not talking of huge perspective correction here, I am talking about very few amounts that keystone tool fail to correct (few or a lot, it's the same). I am aware of the default 80% correction but it's not working better at 100%, 120% or less. I am not using the automatic correction on IIQ files. The behavior of keystone correction tool is different on IIQ files than on other Raw file. Mentioned twice to the support...

    As far as I know, Capture Cultural Heritage enhance automatisation with the whole package of camera and stands, but the soft itself is 5000+ USD.

    I would first a working Capture One keystone correction tool, which is not the case yet.

     

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    It's been six months now. Is there any progress?

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  • Petr Nowak

    I have the same problem too.

    Circa 1 year ago C1 version 12.xxxx (don't remember exactly) - Kystone worked FLAWLESSLY !!!!!!! It spoiled only 1 or two minor versions before new V20 and now it's still spoiled.

    Moreover: C1 support one year ago was perfect. They react quickly to my questions and answer was very exact and to the matter. Unfortunately it spoiled too. Now C1 support is not good...

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    7 months now, apparently, and not a word. Have most architectural photographers abandoned Capture One by now? 

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  • Leo FABRIZIO

    I get in touch with C1 assistance. They are aware of the problem and told me it's transmitted to the R&D team, but couldn't guaranteed when it would be fixed.

    My feeling, more we are referring the case, more we have a chance to have a fix soon. It's important to ask support for a fix.

     

     

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    @Leo – I certainly hope so.

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  • Thomas Kyhn

    After inquiring again, I just got another message from support saying they can't provide any progress updates.

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