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Keywording question

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15 comments

  • Felix Speiser
    I'm also a very new CaptureOne user and have the same Keywording question. I'm working on Mac and worked with Aperture so far. There, key wording was very "handy" as well as adding personal notes. In CaptureOne the information menu cannot be customized (?).

    Lookiung forward to some useful replies, thanks and regards,
    Felix
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  • Berny
    Oh well, lets see if things got improved in CO8 😊
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  • MarcoKortmann
    Berny wrote:

    Oh and how can you create a filter to show images that have no keyword assigned? '*censored word* is empty' is missing in the search dialog.


    LR can do this easily, with C1 it's not possible and I'm very unhappy about this fact. What you can do is mark the files that have no keywords perhaps with a one star ranking or a colour tag which can be filtered.
    But this might be not really helpful if you even don't know all the files it may concern. ☚ī¸
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  • SFA
    Marco wrote:
    Berny wrote:

    Oh and how can you create a filter to show images that have no keyword assigned? '*censored word* is empty' is missing in the search dialog.


    LR can do this easily, with C1 it's not possible and I'm very unhappy about this fact. What you can do is mark the files that have no keywords perhaps with a one star ranking or a colour tag which can be filtered.
    But this might be not really helpful if you even don't know all the files it may concern. ☚ī¸


    I can set up a filter with "Keywords" as the selected field and leaving the value of the field blank and that will select only files with no keywords.

    Sometimes.

    To be more specific ... I can get it to work in one session but not in another (both open at the same time).

    This is using Windows.

    It doesn't crash but the filtering functionality seems a little "flakey" for some reason.

    In the session that works correctly (so far) if I save the successful filter as a Smart Album ("No Keywords") when I access that album it actually gives me only the files with key words.

    If anyone else can reproduce the same or similar results lets write them up and register a Support Request.


    Grant
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  • MarcoKortmann
    Hi Grant,

    you're right. We can create a filter with keywords "is as" (?) - got the german version of C1 8 - and leave it blank. But I have no experiences with more than one session or catalog, so I hope someone else may help you.
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  • SFA
    Marco wrote:
    Hi Grant,

    you're right. We can create a filter with keywords "is as" (?) - got the german version of C1 8 - and leave it blank. But I have no experiences with more than one session or catalog, so I hope someone else may help you.


    Hi Marco,

    I have tried a few more experiments and as far as I can see having one or more than one session/catalog open makes no difference to the basic problem.

    I have also noted that the search text is treated as being case sensitive. That may or may not be a benefit! It would be usual to have a flag in the definition to allow users to specify whether a Case sensitive search should be applied. I don't think that is possible at the moment. However it would be good to check that the German version (and other languages) do the same thing. (See my further comments below).


    The problem that seems to exist with the search for empty (i.e. no recorded) search fields is that it only seems to work the very first time one defines it. Immediately afterwards it inverts and gives only images WITH keywords. If you save it as a Filter or Smart Album it only lists files WITH keywords.

    This may not be new to V8 - I don't recall reading anything to suggest there have been specific changes for V8 compared to V7.

    I suspect the problem is that the logic is specifically checking for the content of keyword fields (except at the very start of the filter definition process) but perhaps not allowing for the fact there may not be any keyword fields at all.

    Whilst on the subject of logic ... entering keywords.

    The basic entry box allows creation of words in upper and lower case. So one might add the word "Football"

    If you then select another image and start to type in the word "football" C1 will find "Football" and offer it for use. So of course you accept it to save some typing and the system will add "football" to the image's keyword list, using the word it has suggested in the entry box which will be in lower case characters only. You will then have both "Football" and "football" as separate keywords. Any future keyword additions to images in the session/catalog via the text entry box will offer only the lower case version. (As far as I can tell.)

    In the final analysis it's not that big a deal - most people will be more likely to use the drag and drop method of keyword allocation or copy and paste - but it may be the cause of some confusion if people are no aware of the subtle details of the way this functionality currently works.

    It would be good if a few people could confirm my findings, on Mac as well as windows.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • SFA
    A quick and inelegant suggestion that might work temporarily for some of you.

    Start by adding a specific disposable "keyword" to all the files you are working with. A single obscure character should be OK.

    As you add keywords to the images, delete the disposable word (the delete function seems much more user friendly in V8 than it was in V7).

    Use the disposable keyword to identify those images for which you have not completed your keyword activity.

    Tidy up at the end by deleting the disposable keyword. (Which, by then, may not exist anyway!)

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Berny
    Grant,

    thanks for your efforts! Your idea seems a bit like sledgehammering a mosquito though. Sure one could apply a disposable keyword during import. But checking a "keyword IS NULL" condition should be fairly easy to implement and makes much more sense from a user perspective.
    I also never used drag&drop to assing keywords. I very much prefer working with the keyboard. Might be my clumsiness with the mouse 😉 Copy&paste would be nice if there was a add mode instead of replacing existing keywords.

    Bernd
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  • SFA
    Bernd,

    I agree that my suggestion should only be seen as a temporary workaround.

    I am not sure that your checking for null solution would work. I suspect the the check would need to be for the absence of any keywords at all for the image - which is why it works when building the enquiry. I think. One for the software developers and designers.

    I find dragging very effecting for bulk keywording once one is used to it. For me it is preferable to the keyboard in most cases but there are so many needs that no one approach will suit all people in all situations.



    Grant
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  • Berny
    Hi Grant,

    just for clarification 'IS NULL' is database language for 'there is nothing, not even an empty string', i.e. absence of data. 😊

    I'll have to try the keyword dragging. I'm just too much of an dinosaur and prefer keyboard whenever possible 😉
    I guess we'll have to see how things develop, the keywording got a fair bit of change in C1 8 so I suspect there is still some movement to expect.

    bernd
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  • SFA
    Berny wrote:
    Hi Grant,

    just for clarification 'IS NULL' is database language for 'there is nothing, not even an empty string', i.e. absence of data. 😊

    I'll have to try the keyword dragging. I'm just too much of an dinosaur and prefer keyboard whenever possible 😉
    I guess we'll have to see how things develop, the keywording got a fair bit of change in C1 8 so I suspect there is still some movement to expect.

    bernd


    Hi Bernd,

    Yes I know what IS NULL is and the difference between that and, say, IS EMPTY but I suspect that the check required here is a little more nuanced than has been allowed for depending upon whether or not the enquiry that forms the search is expecting to find a populated data file with all fields present - even if empty.

    If, for example seeking fast performance, the search uses the keyword field as the look up and then displays a list of images that match any file with no keyword entry will not appear. If it reads all files and then checks for a keyword IS NULL or IS EMPTY or any other equivalent value then for a large database performance might suffer in the absence of a suitably powerful system. (It will suffer anyway but might not be so obvious if using a powerful device.)

    I would guess that you already know this but I thought I might be worth adding the observations for completeness of the thread so far.

    We will have to wait and see how this is addressed.



    Grant
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  • mli20
    SFA wrote:

    ...
    If, for example seeking fast performance, the search uses the keyword field as the look up and then displays a list of images that match any file with no keyword entry will not appear. If it reads all files and then checks for a keyword IS NULL or IS EMPTY or any other equivalent value then for a large database performance might suffer in the absence of a suitably powerful system. (It will suffer anyway but might not be so obvious if using a powerful device.)
    ,,,


    A properly designed database would maintain an index on the keywords field, thus allowing direct access to files meeting the keywords search criteria. This is very fast as opposed to the sequential read of all records of the table containing keyword/file info necessary if such an index does not exist.

    Does the C1P SQLite dabase have this index?

    No, it doesn't.

    Cheers,
    Mogens
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  • H. Cremers
    mli20 wrote:

    ...

    Does the C1P SQLite dabase have this index?

    No, it doesn't. ...


    Would you have any more info about that, i'd be interested? I have not been able to find out anything about the schema and general database design of the CO catalogue.
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  • mli20
    I use SQLite Manager, available as a free add-on for Firefox.
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  • H. Cremers
    mli20 wrote:
    I use SQLite Manager, available as a free add-on for Firefox.


    Thanks, i'll give that a try. I never knew CO used a plain SQLite database.
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