Select the "before" image
Implemented
Hi,
The new capture one is great, I especially love the before/after feature. However I have an issue with it.
I don't know what image C1 consider as "before". Which settings are considered/applied on the "before" snapshot? (I mean there's a minimum for tonal curves, white balance, etc, which are applied on the 'before' image you show)
What I'd like is to be able to set "this current state of the image should be set as 'before' image" (or reset it to your original default).
Thanks,
-- TR
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My thinking is that the user should be able to select the before state, e.g. by selecting two different variants, the lower variant being the Before, the higher variant being the After.
This only works with two images (variants) selected, so it could / should be a separate Before/After mode.
The reason why this would be useful is that I seldom want to showcase what great edits I have done compared to the default, unadjusted image, but rather want to improve a certain variant and want to see rhe before/after state. All the possibilities to do that now, e.g. Switching on/off a layer, or temporarily resetting a single tool with the Alt key modifier, come with a delay penalty during which the image shows in a third "state", at least if zoomed in. The only realtime switch is the split view, assumingly because both are loaded in memory, hence it would be fantastic to have this for two different variants.
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Tzvi,
I agree that users should be able to select a "before" state.
C1 always considers the original version as the "before" image which is clearly not good enough to support comparisons of subtle edits at late stages in the editing process.
Please see my related feature request here:https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360010930478-Image-Edit-History
BeO,
in my view comparing variants isn't that useful because it would require foresight as to when a variant for later comparison should be created. Also, variants created for comparison purposes would have to be manually deleted by the user once the editing has concluded.1 -
Tzvi,
Which alternative applications are you aware of that that do not use the basic interpretation of the source image as their "before" state?
By far your best option is, in my opinion to compare variants - which may be that same original interpretation or some later version that you, rather then the application, consider to be the basic state of the image as you might wwant it to be.
You can do this with Variants very easily but using the basic "before" and "after" view not the "slider". You do not use the "Before and After" view to to achieve this. You are not limited to 2 "versions" of the image.
Simply create an edit to the status you think of as the "start" point then create another variant of it. Typically that would probably start as a cloned option for which there is a keyboard shortcut.
Make some changes to the cloned variant.
Select both variants in the Browser. In the viewer you can easily switch between multi view to see them side by side or single view and then use an arrow key to instantly change between them and see the differences in an "overlayed" effect.
You can co-ordinate navigation and zoom of the images so that they always appear in exactly the same position.
If you have 3 variants you can loop around them in either direction with an instant way to get back to your "base" settings if you want to see the effects of 2 different approaches to editing. You can select more than 3 variants at the same time and it all works well but its not so directly useful as the 2 or 3 variants option in my opinion.
The is a long established option to set one variant as the "Compare" image to be "fixed" i the viewer and then scroll through other images to display alongside it. This is intended more for image selection comparisons than detailed edit comparisons but may work in some situations for comparing variant edits as well.
This sort of approach is something I have found to be much more useful than any "before and after" feature or "slider" display that I have so far found. My use of this approach has proved beneficial since well before I discovered Capture One back at version 5. It also fits well, in my opinion, with a useful "editing History" need in a way that a list of past changes applied by the system never has. So there are multiple benefits from the "variants" philosophy.
Note that C1 also allows the variants to be "ranked" in an order you create is that is something you can make use of.
The C1 storage overhead for this is minimal. The application I used previously saved a jpg for each saved edit variant complete with preview file. C1 does not need to do that.
Highly recommended for offering several benefits and readily available today.
HTH.
Grant
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Hi,
The before/after is an excellent addition and a really useful one. Both modes (split screen and full screen) are very useful.
The way I work with either, is by rapidly swapping between the two, back and forth; comparing the various changes in each part of the image.
However, the "before" state is unclear. You mentioned "the basic interpretation" but even that is not well determined. This base state can change from release to release, and in fact can change by the user whenever they choose "Save as defaults..." on the panels.
For example, if I change "ICC Profile" from "Standard" to "Flat" - do all the "before" images change too? If so, I have a weird way of changing the "before" images (but at the same time affecting *all* the before images equally across he catalog).
What I imagine this feature to be is like that:
- For each image:
- Every modification you make, enters a (length limited) history queue. (essentially, this is the undo stack, which is already implemented internally)
- In addition you have a "base state" entry (always the last one at the bottom - and selected as "before" by default).
- You can then browse the last entries and mark one as the "before" state.
That way you can change it to measure the subtle differences you make from a previous known state. Using variants is simply far less convenient than the new before/after feature, where by quickly alternating you can easily notice even subtle change.
Just my 2c :)
-- TR
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SFA,
"Which alternative applications are you aware of that that do not use the basic interpretation of the source image as their "before" state?"
If I may answer instead of Tzvi: Lightroom allows users to select any step within the editing history of an image to be picked as the "before" state.
You wrote: "The C1 storage overhead for this is minimal."
It is not "minimal", as the shared editing adjustments between multiple variants are not shared among the variants. If one uses an edit history, one can reference the upper limit of all possible "before" states without increasing storage requirements.
The variant-based approach is not complete either, because editing stages that weren't captured by creating variants are not available for comparison.
You wrote: "Highly recommended for offering several benefits and readily available today."
I disagree due to the downsides I mentioned regarding the use of variants as "before" images before. They require clairvoyance and final manual cleaning up work by the user.0 -
Tzvi,
If you can pick out the specific point of change you want to return to from a long list of changes, many applied from a single click for, say, a Style application or a copy and paste from another image, all absent any user annotation, then your experiences have been better than mine when using extended edit history records.
Life gets even more interesting when you jump back to an historic point, reset and head off n a different direction only to decide that that particular experiment dies not work for you and you prefer where you had got to last time - before you backtracked.
Now where does the history take you?
A variant fixes that point for you and makes all previous history unnecessary.
What you are describing is actually the same as pre-setting a variant ready for instant use ratjer than having to guess where the right point might have been in a long list of changes entries.
Before I decided to investigate C1 some year ago I had used LR but abandoned it in favour of another application (now sadly defunct as a commercially available product for over a decade), which offered both an edit history and the ability to create saved edits for an image that were different to C1's variants in the way they worked but very similar in usability. I found the history frequently somewhere between not as helpful as one might hope and completely useless. The "variants" option and the ability to instantly display differences between pre-selected edit states was a far superior approach. In my opinion.
I was delighted to find the same concept in C1.
Your proposal for using a selection from a History of changes file to, in effect, make a "variant" comparison is to all intents and purposes the same as being able to compare variants. The only difference is whether you have pre-chosen the comparison points or you wish to try and identify them on the fly.
I found the identification 'on the fly' was very hit and miss for a number of reasons. Pre-selecting a reference point in an edit process makes much better sense in my opinion.
However, either way we can agree that the comparison only to whatever our "Base characteristics" settings might deliver is sub-optimal for the purposes we have in mind.
Grant
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SFA,
you wrote "I found the identification 'on the fly' was very hit and miss for a number of reasons. Pre-selecting a reference point in an edit process makes much better sense in my opinion."
The point is that a history allows both approaches.
Lightroom allows to mark certain editing stages as "snapshots".
These are like your "variants", except that
a) they don't need further storage requirements, and
b) don't clutter up image collections.
If you prefer this "mark for later comparison"-approach, you can use it with editing histories that support naming certain points for later reference.
However, if you find that you have missed to capture a certain editing stage then you can still find it in an editing history after the fact.
In short, editing histories serve everyone while a variant-based approach has severe downsides (requiring clairvoyance, cluttering up collections, and requiring manual clean up work).0 -
Even with applications where both is supported e.g. Affinity Foto I do not use the history.
This is not how my brain works, I either start a new adjustment idea, which marks a major step, at worst I click a few times the undo button. Hence I rather duplicate the background or other layer, or create a live filter layer.
In (my) image editing, there are only a few major steps worthwhile going back to, and in C1 I persist them in layers or variants. A complete history hides these major steps by listing too much "spam". I guess the history has its roots in the beginning of PS where all adjustments where destructive, but that doesn't matter, going back in a history list is an overrated concept in my view.
The variants in C1 are even better in this respect (defining the major steps worth preserving), and the compare functionality is a good one, just missing the split view.
For me, the split view of two variants would be a revolution. Because this really renders two variations instantly and is the best approach when comparing rather subtle changes, in my experience. For assessing to complete variations in fit to screen mode, the in-place switching, as available today or with the new before / after is also good.
The point that one has to delete the variants afterwards is a non issue for me, I treat these variants as any other unwanted image, I mark them with the red color tag with one keystroke, and at some point in the future, or during the edit session, filter all red ones and get rid of them.
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Hi there,
Thank you for feedback on Capture One - this is always welcomed and encouraged among our users and we appreciate the time you've taken to contribute towards the development of the software.
I have forwarded your comments and suggestions to our Product Management team as something to consider in a future release.
Whilst we cannot comment on future releases, we take all suggestions on board and hopefully your feedback contributes towards a future version of Capture One.
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October 2021: Version 21-14.4.0.135
Well it is about a year ago and the feature (which is not that hard to incorporate), is still not there.
E.g. : In LR you can set any of your steps along the history line of your edits, as the new 'before'.
I work a lot in B/W so the first step is to convert the color image into B/W and I would like to have that as my 'before' instead of the colored image.
Now I clone a variant, and 'set that as compare'.
But there are some bugs in the software that make this a hassle and almost not workable
1. If you change the color image to B/W and use clone variant, you get a copy of the B/W version. If you set the first one to 'set as compare' it wil show a colored pin in your vertical browser pane. The images are now presented next to each other and you can adjust the cloned version like one wants. Set it back by 'çlear compare ' you need to make sure that in your browser pane the CLONED VARIANT is selected otherwise the compare will not end, and you are stuck with the two images next to eachother. To get it right, select compare again, highlight the CLONED VARIANT and select 'çlear compare' again !!
2. If you use right mouse click to set 'set compare' that section and the section 'load metadata' and 'regenerate views' is double in that list !!
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