Sessions vs. Catalogs.
I've tried using catalogs in Co7. Frankly, I'm not impressed with the workflow, and I've noticed that when outputting images from a catalog, Not all of my changes are written to the output files. Notably, exposure changes made on images in catalogs are not reflected in the output images.
In sessions, there are "selects" and "Output" folders, and a "Trash" folder. Somehow, anything seems to be recoverable; I can even move (in Windows Explorer) trashed images back to the Capture folder and see them again in the capture folder view. This, alas, is not true in catalogs, and it almost seems catalogs are set up for display, but not for actual editing of
images.
What I'd really like to see is a catalog set up so that a "session" is created on import, with all the session attributes, and then maybe the completed images can be put in the "catalog view" for presentation. The way things work now, editing and selecting images for further work is just too cumbersome. And, it seems that deleting an image from a catalog unrecoverably deletes its database entry.
When I work in a session, I can move images I want to work on to my Selects folder, and trash the ones I don't want to deal with now. That way, when I return to a large session, I can always tell which images I haven't examined yet, because they remain in the capture folder, and I can always return trashed images to the capture folder if I want to review them again later. None of this works in catalogs. The worst failing, though, is that I can't output the images AS EDITED, and do further work in an external editor.
In sessions, there are "selects" and "Output" folders, and a "Trash" folder. Somehow, anything seems to be recoverable; I can even move (in Windows Explorer) trashed images back to the Capture folder and see them again in the capture folder view. This, alas, is not true in catalogs, and it almost seems catalogs are set up for display, but not for actual editing of
images.
What I'd really like to see is a catalog set up so that a "session" is created on import, with all the session attributes, and then maybe the completed images can be put in the "catalog view" for presentation. The way things work now, editing and selecting images for further work is just too cumbersome. And, it seems that deleting an image from a catalog unrecoverably deletes its database entry.
When I work in a session, I can move images I want to work on to my Selects folder, and trash the ones I don't want to deal with now. That way, when I return to a large session, I can always tell which images I haven't examined yet, because they remain in the capture folder, and I can always return trashed images to the capture folder if I want to review them again later. None of this works in catalogs. The worst failing, though, is that I can't output the images AS EDITED, and do further work in an external editor.
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Jim,
Which version of C1 are you running with? Express? DB?
If you are using Pro and like sessions, stick with sessions.
As I understand it EXPORT is exactly that - the export of a de-mosaiced (if RAW) or original (if jpg, etc.) file for use with another program. PROCESS, on the other hand, gives you an output file with the editor work you may have undertaken in C1 applied. Or at least it should do. It does, so far as I can tell, on my system.
HTH.
Grant Perkins0 -
C1 Pro on Windows 7 64-bit. I've noticed (or been informed of) disparities between Windows and Mac versions, with Windows , for example, not being able to title an image with shot time on import, when the Mac version will do this. I'm wondering what other problems there are. I wanted to try catalogs, since I have a couple of log-term projects that involve multiple shoots, and I thought Catalogs would be a good way to manage those. Now, I'm thinking, not so much. ☹️ 0 -
Jim, Another question for you - do you use a DAM ? and if so, which one?
I use both Media Pro and Lightroom - sounds complicated, but I have a pretty decent workflow that allows me to use the best features of both of them. When I use CO 7, I also run it only in sessions, not catalog mode. Then, I can use MP to easily select which photos I want to edit in a CO session. Most of the time I tend to process my big shoots in small batches. It works efficiently for me.0 -
[quote="Jim Casler" wrote:
C1 Pro on Windows 7 64-bit. I've noticed (or been informed of) disparities between Windows and Mac versions, with Windows , for example, not being able to title an image with shot time on import, when the Mac version will do this. I'm wondering what other problems there are. I wanted to try catalogs, since I have a couple of log-term projects that involve multiple shoots, and I thought Catalogs would be a good way to manage those. Now, I'm thinking, not so much. ☹️
Jim,
I think there are a few (but these days not so many) differences in operating system level tools and processes that can be called upon when comparing iOS with Windows (and of course Linux, Android and so on but they don't concern us here so far.)
One of the benefits of Windows (and I never thought that I would find myself writing this!) at the moment seems to be some relatively good system stability and reliable working compared to, er, "other" options. Certainly has been my experience with C1 on Windows 7. Other sections of the forum seem to confirm this to some extent - it may be easier to get to a stable configuration on Windows than it is elsewhere.
I think the debate regarding Catalogues or Sessions is still wide open. My inclination is towards a Session type of working. I bought LightRoom V1 when it came out and, as I have never got on with PS Layers type editors, liked what LR had to offer but was not so keen on all the catalogue stuff one had to use.
A little later I tried a different application that offered a working structure extremely similar to C1 sessions I lked it and what it could do so dropped LR.
That one is somewhat dead in the water at the moment and has been for a while. I decided to try C1 a while back and almost immediately felt 'at home'. If offered some other advantages over my previously favoured application (which is still very good on many ways but for various reasons has not had any real new development for about 4 years, maybe longer.) So I adopted C1 and felt comfortable with it straight away.
I think, from what you describe of your projects, there is a case for using catalogues but probably more as an archive.
Faced with the same sort of project I would guess that I would consider initial processing in sessions and then, once each step of the project was at or near completion and interaction with each "shoot" might be reducing I would probably consider importing to a project if it seemed like a good thing to do from a file management point of view.
That said I am not writing from the basis if any experience with catalogues in C1 - just what I heave read in the help system, seen in the tutorials and read in the comments on the forum. There may be some extremely useful aspect of catalogues that I have entirely overlooked so far - especially for something like your long term projects. But so far what I see as necessary for my needs does not push me in that direction.
By the way as far as I can see C1 V7 does allow you to include Image Date and Image Time in the file name when importing and during a Batch Rename. I will confess I have not specifically tried either option for that data though.
I do know of a very powerful and free windows renaming program that is comprehensive and fast. The only limit seems to be that restricts you to about 250 files at a time (or maybe some sort of limit based on the length of the name of the path to the folder and file - not sure what the restriction is but it does not cause me major problems since it is easy to work with the program despite the constraint. I don't currently find I need to use it for photos - my workflow is not so strict. There are probably a number of similar programs around.
I hope this helps in some way.
Grant Perkins0 -
Well, thanks to all. Looks like most of us find sessions to be a better working environment than catalogs. Grant, I'm with you in thinking that catalogs are probably better for archiving than for workflow, but, I will disagree about image time availablity on import (at least for titling) It IS available for titling when processing, but, in a session-type environment, that won't help much. I shoot a lot of action stuff - street shots, Renaissance Faire stuff, bellydance conventions, and other types of gatherings and events. That amounts to a LOT of images. It's not uncommon, in a Ren Farire or bellydance shoot, to shoot nearly 3700 images in a day, on a couple or few memory cards. That's where the image time on import comes in handy.Now, importing to a catalog gets around this by creating a new folder for each card. Sessions don't do this, but, as we all seem to agree, sessions enable a better working environment. I'm still a bit on the fence, but I think I'm going back to sessions because of the workflow. I really do hope some of the PhaseOne dev people get on this thread, though, because I have a feeling they could learn something of value about the ways we work. 0 -
[quote="Jim Casler" wrote:
but, I will disagree about image time availablity on import
Jim it is possible to batch rename to date and time on import from card as here, see naming panel on the import box. I also include the camera model on my preset
http://www.pbase.com/paulsilkphotography/image/149615970.jpg0 -
Hi Jim,
As Paul says the date and time information does seem to be available on import and if he's using it I will happily accept that it works and gives the required date from the file's exif data (not having tried it myself).
A lot of my shoots also involve several thousand shots a day (probably not as interesating as belly dancing though!) usually with the vagaries of outdoor conditions to work with (so not usually much chance to use very specific settings across large batches of files) and often using the results of 3 or 4 cameras. So slightly similar, perhaps, to your needs.
Using sessions I simply import everything into separate folder within the session - one for each card import. Maybe not the best way to do it although with perhaps 1100 images per card I find the folders quite big enough too from a performance point of view. It also means that, in the field running copies and backups of the files as a first activity, it is easy to manage the cards and know that I have dealt with all of them.
Now I suppose I should then aggregate all the inputs into some other grouping but in reality I find I only do that for output files using a naming convention there that gets me back to the original when needed.
I should probably also look at using the image data and time in order to be able to show multi camera shots in the correct sequence very easily ... but then it's not something that is a regular requirement beyond a few shots and a few shots I can deal with by visual assessment - probably easier in my regular subject matter than yours. Also I am not that careful about setting correct camera times and synchronising camera clocks before starting a day shooting.
On that point I have just remembered that our clocks changed a week or so back so I guess I had better reset the cameras .... ! 😉
Grant Perkins0 -
[quote="Paul Silk" wrote:
[quote="Jim Casler" wrote:
but, I will disagree about image time availablity on import
Jim it is possible to batch rename to date and time on import from card as here, see naming panel on the import box. I also include the camera model on my preset
http://www.pbase.com/paulsilkphotography/image/149615970.jpg
Indeed, but Windows-users must have at least the CO 7.1.1 installed. In older versions this kind import-renaming was not possible.
regards, Tappari0 -
To emphasize Tappari's statement, CO 7.1.1/Win contains numerous fixes regarding the renaming tokens.
From 7.1.1 onwards, CO7/Win has the same renaming tokens in all features (capture, import, batch rename, output) as the Mac version.0 -
Thanks for this interesting discussion. I started using catalogues right from the beginning after downloading CO7 - my first experience with CO. I use different external hard disks and when connecting them I have troubles finding the folders and edited photos.
If I start using sessions instead of catalogues I wonder if and how I can copy adjustments made in catalogues to the sessions.
Peder0 -
I keep trying to use Catalog but end up going back to sessions.
First of all why would anyone store their Raw files "IN" the catalog? Adding files to a catalog using your own file structure has its own issues (I might outline these later but ...)
1. A catalog that doesn't hold my entire collection or at least a few years of work is useless.
2. Catalogs in C1 are too big to backup more than once a day.
2A. Since C1 is not always the most stable of applications the chance of loosing a days worth of edits is VERY high and has happened to me a few times
2B. open a catalog and wait for the browser to populate takes WAY too long
2C. clicking on search criteria takes WAY too long to populate browser
I think catalogs would be a more viable option if
1. edits were stored with images as in sessions. that way no mater what happens to the catalog...
2. preview cache was stored separately so that only thumbs were backed up with the catalog
2a. this enables faster full backup of the actual catalog and a more logical incremental backup of the larger previews
2b. allows separating large data across disks for faster access times.
At the very least allow us to export edits to the original folders as is the default in sessions.
FYI to do this currently you will need to export originals and then copy the capture one folders to the original folders and delete the newly created redundant raw files.0 -
I much prefer the session concept to the catalogue concept though in a large document library I can see why it would not work too well.
On the other hand the idea of having finished work in a fully searchable fairly compact catalogue is appealing. And maybe, for a while after the shoot is completed, the ability to edit the images to some extent without having to have the original file available at the time has some value. For older archive material I don't really see the same benefit - at least not for me.
So I might consider an archive catalogue of processed work that would give me file name and (likely!) location should I find a need to go back to the original. Then a "current" catalogue of work for the past 12 months say - anything that might still be subject to regular re-visits.
All shoots would firstly be processed in a session to keep them as self contained as possible whilst they were still 'active' on a daily basis (or maybe weekly basis).
Ultimately I think we are likely to expect mobile access to our 'master drives' with the bulk of the data storage (the RAW files, TIFFs and so on) being left there (and in backup of course) at all times. On the road you might have a compact catalogue to act as you image presentation tool with potential for direct access to the master files if needed but no real need to carry them with you and have the overhead of a huge catalogue.
There will be people who cannot work that way and perhaps anyone spending many hours manipulating an image might not agree with the idea - but then they are probably diving deeply into Photoshop or similar to do that level of work. But for many people it should suffice. I think.
Grant Perkins0 -
Thanks for your reply Grant
About:
"2A. Since C1 is not always the most stable of applications the chance of loosing a days worth of edits is VERY high and has happened to me a few times"
I have experienced the same and it is so annoying.
I think I better turn to sessions. I wonder if adjustments made in a catalogue can be copied to a session.0 -
[quote="NN634873157263786013UL" wrote:
...
I think I better turn to sessions. I wonder if adjustments made in a catalogue can be copied to a session.
You can export from catalog including adjustments.
File menu, Export, Originals0 -
As a user of C1 Express since v4, I am thinking of upgrading to v7 since I like the rendering with the new engine. The pro is out of my budget. Thus, I am forced to switch to the catalog, and still don't know how to work with it with 10 or 100 thousands of pictures. What are the recommendations here? Should we restrict a catalog to a few 1000 of pictures? It is anyway possible to work with many catalogs?
What does the "backup catalog" actually? I get a big Capture One.cocatalogdb file and nothing in the Adjustments sub folder, despite having editing a few pictures... When I re launch a backup, I yet have another copy of this Capture One.cocatalogdb file and the empty folder structure, but the former are still there, hence like a waste of space...
How to work with many computers? With the sessions, I use to work on my desktop, then sync everything on an external hard drive and sometimes continue working on my laptop. How to do it with catalogs?
As written here, how to deal with saving the adjustments only? "Export originals" do export the adjustments, but as long with the original file. I just want to export the adjustments!0
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