Metadata management RFC
Hello,
I am currently using Capture One as my central software to develop my photographs. I generally appreciate the simple workflow.
I wish it would have a better management of the metadata. And when I search around in this forum, I am not the only one!
Currently, from my cr2 files to jpg or tiff files, only the basic exif data are kept.
3 parts which are AMHO quite important are ignored:
1) the GPS coordinates (Exif)
2) the lens used (typically from the MakerNotes): the lens is quite important for the use of further software like PTLens.
3) the IPTC which better describe the picture (I am not using them much, but it seems to be a full part of the workflow of many users)
I could imagine the possibility to set which kind of meta data should be kept:
a) Exif
b) IPTC
c) XMP
d) MakerNotes
For each one, the user could check or not the group (checkbox). Thus, the one would like the output file without any data could simply uncheck everything (which is the default behavior of the the "save for web" in Photoshop AFAIK)
I would like to keep only some MakerNotes, but the author of ExifTool said they should be always kept as a block. The alternative is therefore to export e.g. the Lens field as a new XMP field.
More generally, the metadata working group released the specification for a better interoperability: http://www.metadataworkinggroup.com/pdf ... idance.pdf
I wish Capture One could respect that (and eventually make some marketing around that)!
And please do not reserve such features in the pro version: AMHO, every small software about imaging (starting from the freeware) should respect them.
Dear Capture One user, if you agree with the current proposition, please add your comment here. Thus, the metadata management may get a higher priority in the development team 😉 Ok, you could also argue that other features (like a faster focusing) should be more important...
I am currently using Capture One as my central software to develop my photographs. I generally appreciate the simple workflow.
I wish it would have a better management of the metadata. And when I search around in this forum, I am not the only one!
Currently, from my cr2 files to jpg or tiff files, only the basic exif data are kept.
3 parts which are AMHO quite important are ignored:
1) the GPS coordinates (Exif)
2) the lens used (typically from the MakerNotes): the lens is quite important for the use of further software like PTLens.
3) the IPTC which better describe the picture (I am not using them much, but it seems to be a full part of the workflow of many users)
I could imagine the possibility to set which kind of meta data should be kept:
a) Exif
b) IPTC
c) XMP
d) MakerNotes
For each one, the user could check or not the group (checkbox). Thus, the one would like the output file without any data could simply uncheck everything (which is the default behavior of the the "save for web" in Photoshop AFAIK)
I would like to keep only some MakerNotes, but the author of ExifTool said they should be always kept as a block. The alternative is therefore to export e.g. the Lens field as a new XMP field.
More generally, the metadata working group released the specification for a better interoperability: http://www.metadataworkinggroup.com/pdf ... idance.pdf
I wish Capture One could respect that (and eventually make some marketing around that)!
And please do not reserve such features in the pro version: AMHO, every small software about imaging (starting from the freeware) should respect them.
Dear Capture One user, if you agree with the current proposition, please add your comment here. Thus, the metadata management may get a higher priority in the development team 😉 Ok, you could also argue that other features (like a faster focusing) should be more important...
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In general I agree with your post that (better) metadata support is relevant for a raw processor. My request has two levels. Level one is proper pass-through of metadata for all versions and level two is metadata editing in the Pro/DB versions.
I am aware that the second request is already pending somewhere on the list of functionality to add. I assume when that will be addressed, my first request will get proper attention too. That will be the moment to evaluate and test how it is implemented. I am confident that Phase One is aware of initiatives like the Metadata Working Group.
For your information: I already have a feature request running for (better) metadata support.0 -
I agree too. Even if Phase One doesn't want to offer a full IPTC editor in the non-Pro. All versions should be metadata aware and not discard anything when processing to JPEG or TIFF.
Lucky for me I'm a command-line wiz, and have no trouble telling ExifTool to copy the missing metadata from my raws to my final images. But that shouldn't have to be done. Capture One is discarding valuable photo information--so what if it isn't in the pixels.0 -
I too, alonmg with Paul E, have raised a support case about IPTC data not being passed through from RAW to output JPG/TIF - actually it varies depending on the output format!
I am sticking with 3.7.8 until I change my cameras and I will then have another look at C1 Pro and its competitors at that time - probably a year away.0 -
Support have acknowledged that 4.5.x does not parse IPTC correctly and it is now with the technical people. Thay say 3.7.8 does work properly and that seems to be confirmed by my tests. Hopefully we will get a fix in the next (or subsequent) maintenance release. 0 -
unfortunately, it seems the new 4.6 does not add anything in this topic. I've send another support case and received the following answer 90 min later! (very quick!) Thank you for the concern and yes we are working on this feature. I cannot provide a time line for when this will be implemented but rest assured it is on our "To Do" list. I apologies if we have disappointed you in not having this feature available in 4.6 but the majority of the focus was shifted toward Nikon Tethered support, which I'm sure you can appreciate is no easy task.
Again, I cannot say for certain when advanced MetaData or IPTC support will be available but we are aware of the demand and will have this implemented when we can.
I hope that the next weeks/month will be calmer as camera releases are concerned: in the last months, C1 support had to had support for so many new bodies that they did not have so much time to add functionalities...0 -
I have just loaded, made an initial test and abandoned 4.6.1 Pro as it now seems to pass NO IPTC data through! But partial pass-though as 4.5 is unusuable as far as I am concerned. Only wasted 15 minutes. I too raised a support case but have heard NOTHING for months since they acknowledged the inconsistencies and suggested it would be fixed in a future release (I got the impression that would be 4.6!) - just checked I was told at beginning of November no ETA but probably 4.6
All the other apparent improvements are irrelevant to me if it does not handle IPTC data properly. I will only explore those improvements when IPTC data works but we raised this as soon the Pro version was released. Several maintenance releases and no fixes.
Back to 3.7.8 for most purposes and DPP for my new G10 I guess. I will now have another look to see where Bibble has got to with version 5.
I have just reviewed my support case which PhaseOne closed without telling me! 😡 🤬 My response:
THIS IS NOT, REPEAT NOT, FINISHED as IPTC pass-through still does not work in 4.6.1.
I object to support cases being logged as finished when they are patently not and without informing me. 😡 🤬
[color=#FF0000:36wjdplj]
PS CS2 sees description only in tif and jpg sees description and author. None of the copyright data, location etc loaded into the RAw file (Canon CR2) by PhotoMechanic - all works as it should in 3.7.8.[/color:36wjdplj]0 -
PhaseOne's response:
Hi Martin,
This case was closed because the issue was logged and passed to R&D. Full IPTC implementation will come with a future release. That is all there is to be said.
Kind Regards,
Phase One Support
[color=#FF0000:39hysqnf]
All that is to be said is that PhaseOne are not interested in providing support! [/color:39hysqnf] 🤬
I will probably be using a different RAW converter by then.0 -
Still no mention of IPTC/ MetaData pass through in 4.6.2. Oh well - I won't even be bothering to download 4.6.2.
I may have another look in 3 months or so if 4.7 has been released and I haven't taken on another converter.0 -
Yes! C1 v4.7 has finally a better handling of the IPTC and EXIF metadata! GPS data are now taken into account!
Here my results with 2-3 pictures taken with a Canon DSLR:
I've set the GPS and IPTC metadata with GeoSetter in my CR2 files. I process a picture A.cr2 with 4.6.3 (A1) and 4.7 (A2) and look at the metadata in Xnview (XN) and ExifToolGUI:
In XN, A1 has no gps and no iptc data. In ExifToolGui, A1 has however the IPTC data with "ApplicationRecordVersion" set to 2.
A2 has now the full gps data in exif and the Iptc are also visible with XN. When analyzed within ExifToolGui, it appears that ApplicationRecordVersion is set to 4, as DPP did.
No MakerNotes is exported. The GPS and IPTC data are also not visible in CaptureOne 4.7. The "Lens" information is also interesting: C1 see my Canon lens, but not the third party ones (Tamron, Sigma, Tokina). In any case, it is however not capable of exporting this info (which comes from the MakerNotes): when the output jpg is opened back in C1, the "lens" data in metadata is filled with the focal length.
All in all, the support is not perfect yet: there are some rooms for improvements, but it goes on the good direction!0 -
As has been said metadata pass-through is almost there but there are glitches with IPTC data not being written into TIFF files or doing so in a way that other software cannot see.
Hopefully 4.7.1 may address those final issues.0 -
After several months letting C1 apart, I started to use it again, now in version 4.8.3
Now the bad surprise: the GPS in Exif are not pass through anymore. As I wrote above, it was integrated in 4.7. It this feature now removed from 4.8??
IPTC are almost ok, but not clean, my copyright data are almost eaten, the half is not available anymore.
Currently in the first page of the forum, there are no less than 3 other topic dealing with metadata pb still in v5.
I cannot believe that Phase One do not understand the importance of a fully reliable pass through of all meta-data!
The v5 of C1 is IMHO quite a bad news for all having bought v4: is the v4 branch dead now?
And Phase One, if you cannot fix the metadata pb yourself, maybe the community here could help you: open part of your code or under NDA with selected people. It is unfortunate to let older software branch dying.0 -
[quote="Eric1121" wrote:
...
I cannot believe that Phase One do not understand the importance of a fully reliable pass through of all meta-data!
Phase One does understand the importance of IPTC passing through. Effort has been put into 5.0.1 and counting. Discussion starts with that version I think. CO 4 is end-of-life, as is usual when a new version of an application has been released.0 -
Paul
I am not convinced that Phase One appreciate the importance of IPTC data especially for stock and editorial photographers - it is the lifeblood of sales. For social and commercial photographers it may well be less significant.
If Phase One took it seriously the IPTC capability would have developed and be reliable but it has fallen in and out with each release. It was comprehensive in 3, even had templates, but disappeared in 4 and was just about workable (with some kludgey workarounds) by 4.8.3 but not as comprehensive as 3. It then disappeared completely again in v5 (at least for me and others). With 5.0.1 are just about back to where we were with 4.8.3. The editing capability is a bad joke - who is going to edit a multi-line caption through the slit in the metadata tab? That rather makes the point that PhaseOne do not understand the importance of IPTC data.
But it is still not fully functional according to the supposed capability of v5 load metadata - therefore there is no point me buying an upgrade until it improves further or I change my equipment.
As IPTC capability changes with each patch release we have to do an inordinate amount of testing before moving to the next build. I estimate I have wasted well over $2,000 of my time alpha testing whether just the promised IPTC capability exists and actually works. I have then spent more time (= money) corresponding with PhaseOne helping them understand a problem that should never have been there. So if I come over as grumpy then I think I have good reason. I don't have to do it with any other software I use and that includes some Open Source stuff.
That said I still believe C1 is the best RAW converter and that is all I want from it. Just convert the image and pass the data through - a sort of C1 Pro Superlight; simple fast and effective adjustment and RAW conversion. I don't need a DAM, image editor or an IPTC editor I have far better tools than C1 will ever be in those areas. From their performance it would appear that Phase One do not have the resources to address that part of the market properly in any case - there is a danger they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.0 -
Martin,
I understand the limitations of Capture One in the metadata area and have not a different opinion as you stated here quite clearly and elaborately. My answer to the other poster in this thread was regarding developments Phase One has done recently and that CO4-track was not to be expected much of.
Unfortunately I have not found the time to go through more rigorous testing with IPTC, but you never know what happens in the near future. Capture One is great for raw processing as other tools like PhotoMechanic are for importing, renaming and IPTC handling. You would liked to have it in one tool or work together more closely.0 -
Just after having posting here yesterday, I wrote a follow-up in my support case.
At least, Phase One is fast and efficient to give "some" answer in the support.
So, this is their answer:If you are looking for further improvement then I can only suggest that you upgrade to Capture One 5 from your current software. Capture One 4 is now discontinued and no further support is planned for that version. Capture One 5 now has much improved IPTC data and it will only get better. If you have a specific example that you can provide concerning your GPS data I can certainly pass it along to be addressed, however 5.0.1 did address some issues pertaining to GPS metadata.
In regard to the forum topics, these are User to User issues (User to User Forum) and if there are concerns about the direction of the ITPC fields those users are welcome to create support cases that can site specific examples. We cannot implement improvement in the software based on heated opinions in the Forum, precise examples are necessary for growth.
If you need support for the 7D then you can find it easily in Capture One 5, in fact improved support for the sRAW format was implemented int 5.0.1 (released Monday).
We would like nothing more than to provide support for every photographers specific needs, however costs and manpower limit our potential and at some point priorities need to be assessed. In this case our current priority is Capture One 5, in which you will find that we have addressed many of your concerns.
That's quite clear: CO4 is dead, buy CO5.
By the way, I've just found in the history of my support case before I purchased CO4 (july 2008).Q. Would it be possible to keep all RAW meta-data (or those from the jpeg thumbnail). With my Canon 30D, I wish I could convert my raw by keeping all meta data saved in the jpeg out of the camera, e.g. the lens used.
A. Already today we support a great deal of this but some of the manufactuar specific tag, in other words tags that is not a part of the EXIF standard are stripped, we expect this be corrected as we go along with new versions.
At that time, I though they could even pass trough the MakerNotes in exif...
With the experience made in CO4, sorry Phase One, but I'll wait that other people continue the "beta testing" of CO5 before an upgrade.
On the other side, as I'd like to upgrade from a 30D to the 7D, I will have no other choice.
As Martin, I do appreciate the powerful RAW engine of CO. So I feel between disappointed and frustrated not to have a 100% reliable SW.
My technical background (working in SW industry myself) enhances my frustration: IMHO, IPTC and EXIF pass-trough is not such a huge work: identify the data block in RAW file and copy it to the destination.
Even Phase One has probably spent more time/money on support & management than on the execution of this task.
And if you count all users having pb with metadata, it's get ridiculous.
I also agree that other tools are far better to edit the IPTC/EXIF.
I prefer to edit them directly on my cr2 files because I am sure to keep them. [by the way, that also one motivation of using the workflow of CO which is file based instead of e.g. Lightroom which is database driven].
And it is a pity to have to edit my files TWICE: before and after using CO.0 -
Paul
I am more than happy to work with diffferent tools for different purposes; no problem to have them open in separate windows.
Just give me a working RAW converter that passes IPTC through. I own a library, image editing tool and I{TC editing tool that are much better than C1 will ever be.0 -
[quote="Martin3" wrote:
Paul
Just give me a working RAW converter that passes IPTC through.
I´ll add this wish to my Santa Claus Gift List!0 -
After recent correspondence with support it sounds as though PhaseOne might really be taking metadata seriously and putting effort behind getting it working effectively.
For once I am hopeful that will be fully sorted sooner rather later.
It might not be this Christmas but it might not be too long... 😉0
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