purchase vs. subscription
it is a fallacy to think you had a choice between purchase and subscription
c1 is the best raw converter I know. but c1 is not a replacement for photoshop even after this update and adobe products are also better at the keyword management. so many "improvements" of c1 are only waste balast. Unfortunately c1 v8.3.4 under el capitain doesn´t work without errors (as under yosemite), so you are practically forced to update, if the own workflow is affected of the defects. so it's finally like a subscription regardless of whether you bought a previous version (because you know, that you don´t need "improvements") or actually subscribed to.
and that you get 3 licenses with this update is just eyewash. you have to pay €99 for the update to v9 instead of €69 for v8, whether or not you need the 3rd license.
c1 is the best raw converter I know. but c1 is not a replacement for photoshop even after this update and adobe products are also better at the keyword management. so many "improvements" of c1 are only waste balast. Unfortunately c1 v8.3.4 under el capitain doesn´t work without errors (as under yosemite), so you are practically forced to update, if the own workflow is affected of the defects. so it's finally like a subscription regardless of whether you bought a previous version (because you know, that you don´t need "improvements") or actually subscribed to.
and that you get 3 licenses with this update is just eyewash. you have to pay €99 for the update to v9 instead of €69 for v8, whether or not you need the 3rd license.
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the update to v9 ist not worth for me and also to much expensive.
the bugs in C1 8 " speed" are been fixed in V9 with 99 € 😂
its time to change my workflow or look for alternative !0 -
[quote="CAPTURE NIKON D700" wrote:
the update to v9 ist not worth for me and also to much expensive.
the bugs in C1 8 " speed" are been fixed in V9 with 99 € 😂
its time to change my workflow or look for alternative !
I'm not sure that in C1-9 all bugs and problems from C1-8 or earlier versions are solved.
I'm sure that in C1-9 new bugs and problems are implemented.
I use a digiback from PO.
So I must wait until next year ☹️
Jochen0 -
[quote="g.2" wrote:
it is a fallacy to think you had a choice between purchase and subscription
c1 is the best raw converter I know. but c1 is not a replacement for photoshop even after this update and adobe products are also better at the keyword management. so many "improvements" of c1 are only waste balast. Unfortunately c1 v8.3.4 under el capitain doesn´t work without errors (as under yosemite), so you are practically forced to update, if the own workflow is affected of the defects. so it's finally like a subscription regardless of whether you bought a previous version (because you know, that you don´t need "improvements") or actually subscribed to.
and that you get 3 licenses with this update is just eyewash. you have to pay €99 for the update to v9 instead of €69 for v8, whether or not you need the 3rd license.
I guess I disagree.
If you have a subscription and stop paying for it, you also can not use the software any longer. If you have purchased the product you can still continue to use it, with or without bugs.
Your argument seems to be based on the belief that you are forced to upgrade because there are bugs in your current software that have not been addressed by the developers. But exactly the same thing can (and does) happen with subscription software and Adobe has not been known as being fast to address either customer bugs or customer complaints. Thus, you can have bugs in both purchased and subscription software. The real difference is that you can keep your software, bugs and all, when you stop paying for it and you can not keep your software, bugs and all, if you have a subscription and stop paying for it.
To me that is a big difference.
Have you filed a bug report for your problem?0 -
[quote="spassig" wrote:
I'm not sure that in C1-9 all bugs and problems from C1-8 or earlier versions are solved.
I'm sure that in C1-9 new bugs and problems are implemented.
Jochen
CO9 has plenty of bugs, new or old. Reading the forum shows many and I have four support tickets of my own in now for things that look like bugs to me.
CO might well be the best RAW converter, but the platform doesn't appear to be robust enough to support professional workflows, in my experience.
The folks without other choices must truly be in a fix. ☹️0 -
Not sure I see the point of the original post!
For me it is simple regarding subscription v. Purchase.
If you are a large business with alrge turnover then go subscription as it provides opportunity to write off subscription against tax. If you are a small business or semi-professional then purchase as it is better to be able to decide on your cash flow.
Also talking to your accountant or tax adviser will be better than asking the question here. There is no difference in the software, the only difference is in the payment method.
If you are griping about COP8 on Yosemite or El Capitan then I dont see your problems and can think tht you need some additional IT help.
COP V9 has greatly improved keywording and also Catalog management.
Sorry I must be looking at a different product.
Regarding replacement of Photoshop by COP( then I think that you need to think again or be more realistic in your expectations. I have used Photoshop since version 5.x which is many years. COP9 has many features of PS but it is not PS!!0 -
[quote="jknights" wrote:
COP9 has many features of PS but it is not PS!!
Correct. Nor is it intended to be.
Photoshop is a pixel editor that performs specific tasks very well. CO is a workflow tool that is designed to quickly process large numbers of photos. While there is some functional overlap they are not intended to serve the same purpose. It has been my experience that both types of software are needed with the main work being done by the workflow software and specialty tasks being done by the pixel editor. Neither CO, nor any other workflow tool, can do the kinds of things possible in pixel editors like Photoshop (or what I use, Affinity Photo), but the reverse is also true. As good as PS (or Affinity Photo) are, they are not designed to do the same large scale processing as workflow tools like CO (or Dxo Optics Pro or Lightroom).0 -
Photography is therapy. The cost of C1 is still cheaper than drugs. I don't understand the complaint? 😉 0 -
From what I can gather, it sounds like any complaints are rather out of touch from the alternatives / main players in the photo software industry.
Whatever complaints you have about "forced" subscriptions, or software bugs, are 10x worse on the Adobe side of the fence. So, the grass is NOT greener.0 -
I went with subscription last year when I had to find an alternative for Aperture. Didn't feel like investing the full price directly and knowing that Phase One would probably release version 9 within 12 months, going with the subscription was cheaper than 1 x full price + 1 x upgrade.
If I decide to switch from C1 to another product, then I would want to convert all catalogs to the new product anyhow, just as I had to do now by switching from Aperture to C1. Problem of all these applications is that they lock you in. Catalogs and adjustments are not compatible. Some kind of open standard would be better for us photographers.
I have plenty of applications where I 'own' a license that I don't use any longer and most of the time can't be used any longer because they don't work on todays hardware or operating system.
Regarding bugs, I didn't have many issues with version 8. Some aspects of the software could and should be improved but nobody is perfect. Most of my photographer colleagues use Lightroom and I hear plenty of complaints from them. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.0 -
[quote="harald_walker" wrote:
I went with subscription last year when I had to find an alternative for Aperture. Didn't feel like investing the full price directly and knowing that Phase One would probably release version 9 within 12 months, going with the subscription was cheaper than 1 x full price + 1 x upgrade.
If I decide to switch from C1 to another product, then I would want to convert all catalogs to the new product anyhow, just as I had to do now by switching from Aperture to C1. Problem of all these applications is that they lock you in. Catalogs and adjustments are not compatible. Some kind of open standard would be better for us photographers.
It has always seemed to me that the subscription price is about the same as the purchase price until you stop upgrading. Then, with the subscription, you are left with nothing. With the purchase you still have your product, although it becomes less and less useful as hardware and OS change. I still have some very good photo editing software that I bought several years ago that is still just as good as it was then, but I also have others that no longer work. It all seems like a gamble.
The one good thing about subscription is that if you don't have the product to begin with, the initial cost can be much, much lower. I had Photoshop CS5 so the upgrade cost of CS6 was $129. The yearly cost of CC was $120. Not that much different. Same with CaptureOne. I already had it so the upgrade cost, at $79 (or whatever it was) seemed like a better buy than the subscription but, if I did not have it, the subscription cost would have been very tempting.0 -
I just go with subscription for both CO and PS. Its about the cost of going to the movies once a month. 0 -
[quote="BenjaminJ" wrote:
I just go with subscription for both CO and PS. Its about the cost of going to the movies once a month.
Yes. For now.
The uncertainty about what subscriptions might cost in the future was always one of the issues for me that drove me to the purchase plan. Who knows what the monthly cost might be in one or two years.0 -
[quote="MikeFromMesa" wrote:
[quote="BenjaminJ" wrote:
I just go with subscription for both CO and PS. Its about the cost of going to the movies once a month.
Yes. For now.
The uncertainty about what subscriptions might cost in the future was always one of the issues for me that drove me to the purchase plan. Who knows what the monthly cost might be in one or two years.
Yeah thats what people ranted and raved about with adobe when they first switched to subscription model. Guess what, 2 years later, still same price.0 -
[quote="BenjaminJ" wrote:
Yeah thats what people ranted and raved about with adobe when they first switched to subscription model. Guess what, 2 years later, still same price.
I don't believe that the concern I expressed as to what might happen in the future qualifies as either a rant or rave. It is just a concern that I don't know what the future holds.
I, for one, have never said that the subscription plan is bad. It is, in fact, a very good way for people without current licensed versions to get the software at very low cost. Had I not already had a licensed version of C1 to use for upgrade pricing I might well have gone to the subscription model and, in fact, did have a subscription to Adobe's Photography Program. I have nothing against Adobe (whose products are great) or the subscription model.
None of that means I do not have a concern.0 -
Well I am against subscription. It is much more expensive.
When I do the math I could never justify subscription. I first purchased Capture One Pro version 4 about 11 years ago.
If I had paid full price and five full upgrades that equals $800 to use a great SW for 11 years. At $15 / month X 132 months that equals $1980, almost $1200 more. Now that didn't happen because no one had dreamt up subscription until fairly recently.
Currently a one year subscription costs almost twice the upgrade price. Even if a new version came out exactly at 12 month intervals, that means one would spend $180 for a year versus $99. With promos I paid even less. For this version $89. At least one version I paid 1/2 price upgrade and I bought the original version 4 for $199.
If one bought the full deal and paid for three upgrades, that would be less than 4 years of subscription.
I do make my living with my camera and the upgrade is well worth it. I could not justify not upgrading. It pays for itself in a single photo shoot.0 -
How do you actually cancel the subscription and when can you cancel? Don't see anything about that on the FAQ pages and on the account pages I don't see any option for it. I was caught by surprise by the auto-renewal last month and the 50% price increase (going from the introduction price to full price). There was no announcement of the auto-renewal and the price increase.
For that price it would actually be nice if they'd include Media Pro (and give that software an upgrade as well).0 -
[quote="BenjaminJ" wrote:
[quote="MikeFromMesa" wrote:
[quote="BenjaminJ" wrote:
I just go with subscription for both CO and PS. Its about the cost of going to the movies once a month.
Yes. For now.
The uncertainty about what subscriptions might cost in the future was always one of the issues for me that drove me to the purchase plan. Who knows what the monthly cost might be in one or two years.
Yeah thats what people ranted and raved about with adobe when they first switched to subscription model. Guess what, 2 years later, still same price.
I call it a risk, rather than a rant or a rave. And like all risks, it should be managed, or at least accounted for.
Phase One still allows outright purchase - so that's a way to managed a perceived risk. Adobe does not for Photoshop. They still do for Lightroom.
The only way I see to truly mitigate the risk with Adobe software is for there to be enough competition in their market to offer real alternatives.
And that is where, in many people's opinion, the problem lies. Affinity Photo offers real hope for a credible Photoshop alternative. Others may grow into that spot.
Lightroom has become nearly unchallenged for a DAM/RAW workflow. Capture One Pro could possibly get there, because Phase One does own Media Pro, which could be much further integrated into Capture One Pro. To date, it doesn't push Lightroom very much.0 -
[quote="BobRockefeller" wrote:
[quote="spassig" wrote:
CO might well be the best RAW converter, but the platform doesn't appear to be robust enough to support professional workflows, in my experience.
Funny cause i know plenty of professionals who use it daily, my self included. 🙄0 -
[quote="NNN635838432777837931" wrote:
[quote="BobRockefeller" wrote:
[quote="spassig" wrote:
CO might well be the best RAW converter, but the platform doesn't appear to be robust enough to support professional workflows, in my experience.
Funny cause i know plenty of professionals who use it daily, my self included. 🙄
Do you use it for your DAM solution?0 -
I use sessions for every shoot and client, catalog i have no interest in since LR does that for me if i need it.
You'r claim that it's not "robust" enough to be a part in a professional workflow is based on what ?0 -
CO might well be the best RAW converter, but the platform doesn't appear to be robust enough to support professional workflows, in my experience.
my opinion its is a very expensive RAW converter shows on monitor good coloring look and bunch of basic issue are missing nothing els 💡0 -
[quote="CAPTURE NIKON D700" wrote:
CO might well be the best RAW converter, but the platform doesn't appear to be robust enough to support professional workflows, in my experience.
my opinion its is a very expensive RAW converter shows on monitor good coloring look and bunch of basic issue are missing nothing els 💡
Well expensive is highly subjective, for professionals it's pocket change in terms of equipment costs.
For me the tether solution with capture pilot alone is well worth the retail price.0 -
reply by phase one on the supportcase: there is no support for c1 v 8.x on el capitan. so there is no difference between subscription and purchase when you updated to el capitain and your workflow is affected of the defects. 0 -
[quote="g.2" wrote:
reply by phase one on the supportcase: there is no support for c1 v 8.x on el capitan. so there is no difference between subscription and purchase when you updated to el capitain and your workflow is affected of the defects.
I can not comment on your statement that there is no support for version 8 on El Capitan because I do not know that to be a fact. I will check with support to see what they tell me.
But, as for your second comment, of course there is a difference. If you stop paying for your subscription you have nothing. It stops working. If you have purchased the product you still have it and can use it. There is nothing saying that you have to upgrade after that and someone could continue using Yosemite or El Capitan, and their current software, as long as they have their computer.
That is the main difference between the two ways of buying, aside from the price.0 -
I would never have upgraded to el capitain, if phase one not the impression would have raised that c1 v8. x is fully compatible. now it's too late for the downgrade and v8.x works only with errors. 0 -
Do you not have a backup that you can restore from?
I always make a backup before I upgrade to a new OS so, if there is a problem, I can restore back to the original OS.0 -
[quote="MikeFromMesa" wrote:
Do you not have a backup that you can restore from?
I always make a backup before I upgrade to a new OS so, if there is a problem, I can restore back to the original OS.
Even without upgrading the OS I make backups regularly.
And something like this El Capitan upgrade where we already knew that it might cause problems is worth being tested on a spare machine or if not available you can even test it on a virtual machine before upgrading the system that is being used to earn your living.0 -
[quote="harald_walker" wrote:
Even without upgrading the OS I make backups regularly.
And something like this El Capitan upgrade where we already knew that it might cause problems is worth being tested on a spare machine or if not available you can even test it on a virtual machine before upgrading the system that is being used to earn your living.
I did not mean to imply that I only make backups before upgrades. I make full backups weekly, but also do special backups before something like an OS upgrade and keep that backup for a long time. I still have the last Yosemite backup, just in case.0 -
i have a backup but everything works better for me under elcapitain except c1 v8, and i got used to the improved surface so a downgrade would be really frustrating regardless of the time, that it would cost
and phaseone has announced that v8 is fully compatible, so think it is up to phase one to fix the bugs.0
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