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Keyword handling too buggy to be usable

Samoreen
Hi,

There are a number of problems with keywording in C1 v9 that make this feature totally unusable.

1. After importing my Lightroom catalog into C1, I could see that my whole keyword hierarchy had been flattened, making it fully unusable. I had to export the keyword hierarchy from Lightroom into a text file and then import that text file into C1. But now, I have to re-apply all these keywords to the images in the C1 catalog. Which means hours of work. Did someone ever tested this before releasing C1 v9 ?

2. Also, keywords attached to "view only" files can't be deleted. If they can't be deleted from the file itself, it should be possible to delete them from the C1 keyword database.

3. Deleting keywords is useless anyway because all deleted keywords **re-appear** in the keyword list in a subsequent session (although they were no longer listed after I - allegedly - "deleted" them). I repeat : after deleting keywords in the Catalog Keywords library, I close C1. When I relaunch it, all deleted keywords are back!!!

4. Removing deleted - or replacing renamed - keywords in the affected variants should be a background task. C1 needs too much time to check every variant in order to determine whether it is affected by the deletion or by the renaming. IMHO, there's a design problem in the keyword database.

By the way, does anyone know a way of fully resetting the Catalog keywords library? This library cannot be deleted. Since I now have thousands of keywords in a flat list coming from Lightroom (see above), I'd like to delete everything and import the hierarchical keyword list exported from Lightroom. But since all the keywords re-appear after deletion, I'm stuck.

Thanks in advance.
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • rdghickman
    I also am having difficulty deleting keywords from the keyword catalog properly. They reappear after a restart.

    Have you raised this as a support case or shall I do so?
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  • SFA
    Are you using sync facilities from xmp files? Or any form of perpetual data transfer from external sources?



    Grant
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  • ChrisM
    Regarding point 3: deleting keywords works ok in v9 as long as they are associated to raw files. Jpeg and Tiff images that were generated with v8 from raw files containing keywords, have the keywords embedded in the files in such a way, that v9 cannot delete them. The confusing part is that CO1 appears to accept and execute the command to delete the keywords, and the keywords actually disappear from the keyword library, but they are not in fact removed from the Jpeg and Tiff images. That explains their reappearance upon restarting CO1.
    Removing all Jpeg and Tiff images is the only way as far as I can see to allow permanent clean up from the keywords library.

    Chris
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  • Samoreen
    [quote="rdghickman" wrote:

    Have you raised this as a support case or shall I do so?


    Yes.
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  • Samoreen
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    Are you using sync facilities from xmp files? Or any form of perpetual data transfer from external sources?


    No. XMP sync is disabled.
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  • Samoreen
    [quote="ChrisM" wrote:
    Regarding point 3: deleting keywords works ok in v9 as long as they are associated to raw files. Jpeg and Tiff images that were generated with v8 from raw files containing keywords, have the keywords embedded in the files in such a way, that v9 cannot delete them. The confusing part is that CO1 appears to accept and execute the command to delete the keywords, and the keywords actually disappear from the keyword library, but they are not in fact removed from the Jpeg and Tiff images. That explains their reappearance upon restarting CO1.


    I'm afraid, that's not the problem. I have opened the catalog as a database (it's a SQLite database) with an SQLite manager. I can clearly see that the keywords are still in the catalog. So they are not deleted at all.
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  • ChrisM
    [quote="Samoreen" wrote:


    I'm afraid, that's not the problem. I have opened the catalog as a database (it's a SQLite database) with an SQLite manager. I can clearly see that the keywords are still in the catalog. So they are not deleted at all.

    Regardless though: when you remove all tiff and jpeg images from the catalogue, keeping only raw images, and then use CO1 v9 to delete all keywords, they will be gone from the CO1 interface, and will not return upon restart. So the deletion problem for as far as CO1 v9 useage from its own interface is concerned, is connected to jpeg and tiff images, not raw images.

    Chris
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  • Samoreen
    [quote="Samoreen" wrote:
    I'm afraid, that's not the problem. I have opened the catalog as a database (it's a SQLite database) with an SQLite manager. I can clearly see that the keywords are still in the catalog. So they are not deleted at all.


    Ahem, my mistake. If I delete the keywords and exit C1 immediately, the database doesn't contain any keyword. However, if I relaunch C1 and click on "All Images" it immediately scans all JPEG and TIFF files and reloads the keywords.
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  • Samoreen
    [quote="Samoreen" wrote:
    If I delete the keywords and exit C1 immediately, the database doesn't contain any keyword.


    So I used ExifTool to remove the keywords from all JPEG and TIFF files and that fixed the problem.

    However, as soon as keywords will be added to these files from an external program (in my case Lightroom), these keywords will automatically re-appear...
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  • SFA
    [quote="Samoreen" wrote:
    [quote="Samoreen" wrote:
    If I delete the keywords and exit C1 immediately, the database doesn't contain any keyword.


    So I used ExifTool to remove the keywords from all JPEG and TIFF files and that fixed the problem.

    However, as soon as keywords will be added to these files from an external program (in my case Lightroom), these keywords will automatically re-appear...


    So can you tel LR not to add keywords on export? .... but then I guess you just don't need keywords anyway, sort of?

    Or would you suggest that the C1 developers take the hit and introduce a preference setting so allow disabling of use of KWs contained in a selection of file types? If so an Enhancement Request would be in order.

    Are there any "standards" for keyword structures when applied with hierarchical definitions?

    Are there any patents (and so right to use licences) involved?


    Grant
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  • Samoreen
    Hi Grant,

    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    So can you tell LR not to add keywords on export? .... but then I guess you just don't need keywords anyway, sort of?

    There is no way to prevent Lightroom from writing keywords to the TIFF and JPEG files and to keep them in the catalog only.

    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    Or would you suggest that the C1 developers take the hit and introduce a preference setting so allow disabling of use of KWs contained in a selection of file types? If so an Enhancement Request would be in order.

    That would solve my problem. I just discovered that deleting the contents of the Keywords tag in JPEGs and TIFFs is not enough. This morning, there were again a lot of keywords added at the top of the keyword hierarchy that I had imported from LR to C1 (I exported a text file from LR and imported it in C1 after deleting the whole flat list created by C1). I was just wondering from where they came until I understood that C1 is also importing as keywords all the data contained in the XMP-dc|Subject tag added by LR to the TIFFs and JPEGs files. This makes the solution of deleting keywords in TIFFs and JPEGs not sufficient. Actually, my conclusion is that there's no solution to this issue given the way C1 is working now.

    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    Are there any "standards" for keyword structures when applied with hierarchical definitions?

    I don't know.

    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    Are there any patents (and so right to use licences) involved?

    I don't know either.

    Anyway, the correct solution in order to ease the migration from LR to C1 regarding keywords would be to properly analyze the hierarchical structure of keywords in the Lightroom catalog. They told me this :

    I appreciate your concerns, however many of these issues stem from the nature of trying import a lightroom catalog. Information on what can and cannot be imported is available here: https://www.phaseone.com/en/Search/Arti ... nguageid=1 Unfortunately we are not able to handle hierarchy in lightroom imports.


    Not being able to handle the Lightroom keyword hierarchy doesn't mean that this is impossible. When using an SQLite database management tool, it's easy for a developer to see how keywords are organized in the Lightroom catalog. Writing the code to properly extract the hierarchy instead of generating useless flat keyword lists is then just a matter of time, not a technical issue. Making the decision to write this code depends on how important they consider making the transition from LR to C1 for LR users as easy as possible. Their choice. For the moment, I'm unable to use in C1 the detailed hierarchical keyword library that I have built over the last years in LR. I can't consider rebuilding this manually. And we are not talking about other problems with the C1 catalog.

    So C1 will remain a secondary tool for now, that I will use to handle special cases like the Fuji X-Trans RAW files.
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