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Fuji S2/S3 RAF converted to 12mp with C1 Pro?

Permanently deleted user
Taking this out of another thread...

Just wondering if someone at Phase One can clarify what happens whe C1 Pro is set to do a 12 megapixel conversion of a Fuji S2/S3 RAF. Does the C1 Pro 12 mp conversion actually take advantage of \"virtual photosites\", per how Fuji claims they do with their conversions, or is it just a straight interpolation from 6 mp?

In short, Fuji claims they can produce more data than there are actually pixels for based on tricks with the diagnal (honeycomb) pixel layout. Other converters also make such claims and numerous Fuji users believe they can see an appreciable difference in using the 12 mp files.

I honestly can't say if this is true or not (and I am happy with C1's 6 mp output), however it would be good to know if the C1 Pro 12 mp output was actually better or not than the 6 mp only available from the LE product.

Thanks in advance.
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Comments

20 comments

Date Votes
  • Ulf Liljegren
    The answer I can give is that the recorded information in the RAW file is the 6mp, the rest is Fuji software interpolation.
    We will not do a special Fuji version because basically if you go in to processing and sett development to be 200% it will be a 12mp file, IMHO I would prefer to buy a 12mp camera instead like the Nikon D2X which IS a 12mp camera.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Ok, thanks, good to know.

    I would suggest you add this to your FAQs because I've seen people on this forum repeat that setting the C1 output to 200% (ie: 12mp) for Fuji RAFs yields more real data.

    I still do think it's a matter of opinion whether they can actually fudge out more data than what's in the RAF (though it does beg to wonder why the RAF is so large if it's really only 6mp - but that may be Fuji's way of hiding that it's not really 12mp). Honestly I haven't decided what the truth is here, but I would not state categorically one way or the other.

    As far as buying a \"true\" 12mp camera - I don't know about you but I don't have that kind of money burning a hole in my pocket (nor would it pass the \"wife test\"). Certainly if it's truely possible to get an iffy 12mp of of these RAFs then down sample it to a solid 8mp, I'd like to be able to do that. That would be a lot cheaper that just buying another camera, which is clearly nothing to sneeze at.

    Besides, being a Velvia freak, I really like the output of my Fuji for more than megapixel reasons. However I also like C1 for similar reasons, so I'll live.

    Thanks for the response.
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    *LOL* The wife test, know to well what you are talking about.
    The true RGB data in file is 3024x2016. RAW-STD is 13mb which is a 6mp uncompressed RAW file, they have also RAW-wide, but this is still only 6mp, according to Fuji is both files 12mp file which makes no sense.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Yeah, no one seems to know how they can claim to or do pull 12mp out of what appears to be 6mp of data. They say they can do something with the honeycomb layout. Lots of people claim there does appear to be more data, but it could be all a matter of \"self-suggestion\". In any case I hear what you're saying. Obviously if you at Phase One also thought you could pull more data, I'd like that.

    6mp is plenty. I'm already chewing disk space like it's going out of style.

    Many thanks for all the responses. Good look with you \"wife test\"s.

    😊
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  • masterfrodo
    So why is it that Fuji say there are two different types of sensors on the S3 chip. 6Mp + 6Mp = 12Mp. I realise the camera uses both sensors and then combines them. However, if there are two 6Mp sensors, as there clearly are, surely the RAW data would be 12Mp as the camera hasn't been allowed to combine the data into something smaller.
    So, that would mean that RAW converters should be able to access all 12Mp of data from the S3, unlike the S2 data which really is 6Mp as there is only one set of sensors on the S2 chip.
    The latest Photoshop ACR update allows for the S3 and gives 12Mp as the native full data, so hopefully Phase One will follow suit and give an update that makes use of the extra that the S3 gives over the S2.
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    What they are claiming is S and R pixels and by that they should get a broader dynamic range, but the fact is that the camera produce 6mp worth of data, you can choose to develop it at 200% in the Pro version and you will get 12mp.

    Another excelent example is if you have access to both a S2 and a S3.
    Shoot the same object. If the S3 is twice as sharp then you know that the chip is producing the 12mp.
    The fact is what you will see is that both are just as sharp even though (Developed in Fuji software) the S3 produce twice the file size.
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  • anlarss
    As several people have stated the S3 Pro has two sets of 6 Mp sensors. The idea is to combine the information from the two sensors to primarily increase the dynamic range. However, several sources claim that the resolution is also increased to something comparable to an 8 Mp camera. (provided the information is combined in the intended way)

    I have downloaded Capture One for evaluation and really like the functionality of the software but don’t want to lose any information.

    It appears to me that Capture One does not take advantage of all the information as only a 6 Mp output is provided. Also, I am not convinced that the dynamic range is preserved.

    Can somebody from Phase One explain why 6 Mp + 6 Mp = 6 Mp in Capture One, please.

    Best regards
    Anders Larsson
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  • Anonymous
    The Fuji S3 is a 6 Megapixel Camera.

    I repeat, it has 6.17 primary megapixels that the camera by default interpolates to 12.34mp.
    You can do the same thing in Capture One by processing at 200%.

    New Math: 6MP x 2 = 12 MP

    Cheers,

    kc
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  • masterfrodo
    S-pixel: 6.17 million R-pixel: 6.17 million

    Added up does not make 6Mp 😕


    Surely a RAW converter can be utilised to see both the S and the R pixels and make a 12Mp file, otherwise you are simply throwing away 6 million pixels. Thats the whole point of RAW - ie its RAW, nothing has been taken away 🙄
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  • Anonymous
    The 'R' sensors are limited for Highlights and are certainly not another Full Set of data. Many say the camera is 7 - 8 MP maximum.
    I guess individuals have to decide for themselves, there certainly is a lot of information and discussion on the issue available.
    The waters are muddy out there... but Google Fuji S3 + 12MP
    and see what you come up with. 😉

    Cheers,
    kc
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  • masterfrodo
    Interesting reading, but doesn't change the fact that the combination of the pixels ends up somewhere between 6-12Mp (probably around the 8Mp mark), not the default 6Mp that Phase One uses. That must mean that Phase One is losing some information somewhere along the line.
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    The fact stands that we read out data from file in the same way we do for all other camera, information we get is 6mp worth, we can face it worth to 12mp but it would not be right.
    Truth is if you want a 12mp camera, Nikon D2x or Canon 5D is a far better choice then the Fuji S3 which using the own solution with combining pixels emulate a higher result then it actually is. The only software that truly supports this calculation is Fuji's own software.
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  • masterfrodo
    ..............and that is what I shall use. I fully understand its not a 12Mp camera, but the combination of the sensors and the shape of the sensors does give an image that is widely accepted to be somewhere in the region of 8-9Mp
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  • anlarss
    Disappointing to experience the lack of understanding from Phase One. Basically you are downgrading the Fuji S3 Pro to something like a Nikon D70 or D50!!!

    My trial period has now run out and I am not going to invest in Capture One.

    Cheers
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    Please see following review which hopefully will give you some more info which also supports what I am refering to:
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... -pro.shtml
    I do object to one thing in this article:
    It says:
    The S3 is a six megapixel camera

    But is also says
    On a subjective basis though I would judge the S3 as being the equivalent of a 10-11MP camera when it comes to resolution. This only goes to show that Megapixels are no longer a measure of a camera's true capabilities.


    As you might know is most DSLR's 12bit colour depth (approx 4000 shades per channel) but a Phase One Lightphase/H5 is also 6mp nut 16-bit (Approx 65000 shades per channel)
    Does this mean that the Lightphase is 24mp?

    I stongly agree that Megapixels is not a point of reference of true capabilities.

    I believe we do loose our selves in number and pixels.
    When it really comes down to it, what does the software produce, I am not talking bits bytes and pixels but the actual image.
    What I personally believe we blow the Fuji software out of the water.
    Even if you have to set image scaling to 200% to get the same file size.

    anlarss: I hope you understand it is not lack of understanding, what I am saying is that the Fuji is not a true 12mp camera, if you need that resolution you should get a 12mp camera instead of the Fuji which emulate and take shortcuts to achieve a higher resolution then it is.
    Don't get me wrong in the same breath, the Fuji is a nice camera and if it does what you need then that is fine choice.

    You should invest in Capture One only if you like the image quality and workflow better, do not base it out of the bits and bytes and on perceptive forum posts, do a true objective test instead and figure out what you want.

    I think this thread should end here when we will not get further with this discussion.
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  • masterfrodo
    OK. So, in conclusion, are you saying that if I use Phase one to convert the S3 files, and set the resolution to 200% I will get a better image than using the Fuji software?

    If thats the case, regardless of the 6Mp or 12Mp argument, you will more than likely win me over, as quality is paramount.
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  • anlarss
    I think it would be much more productive if we could get an explanation of what is being done in Capture One with the RAF file.

    The camera sensor produces 6.17 million S-Pixels + 6.17 million R-Pixels and this is combined in the camera to a 24.5 Mbytes RAF file (maybe with some interpolation) when the camera is used in wide dynamic range. This is a lot more information than from an ordinary 6 Mp camera!!

    In the Tips & Tricks section on the Phase One web site there is a write-up on how to increase dynamic range by combining two images with different exposure. This exactly what the S3 Pro does automatically with its two sets of sensors with different sensitivity.

    The key question that has not been answered so far is:
    Does Capture One access both S-Pixel and R-Pixel data and combine them to increase dynamic range? (according to Fujifilm the S-Pixels and the R-Pixels are available separately in the RAF file)

    What is clear from this forum is that Capture One does not try to squeeze out more resolution than 6 Mp. Because the S-Pixels and R-Pixels are offset it should be possible, with the right algorithm, to get 8 to 9 Mp from the RAF file. Fujifilm claim that they do it.

    Scaling it 200% can be done equally well in Photoshop as scaling does not add any information.

    I am not trying to knock Capture One, I agree 100% that from a work flow standpoint Capture One is blowing the Fuji software out of the water and I would be very happy to use it if no compromise is made with the data.
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    anlarss:
    What you are basing your assumption on is that the R-pixel is RGB data.
    The S-pixels is the recorders of RGB data, the R-pixels helps increase dynamic range. Capture One reads the files as a strait up RGB file just like any other camera.
    This might sounds horrible to say but is is the choice that has to be made:
    1. Technical data means more to me then the image quality and I can not accept that Capture One handles the file this way, I will use Fuji software.
    2. Image quality and workflow means more to me so I will use Capture One.
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  • masterfrodo
    Sorry. You've lost me there. The S-pixels are the recorders of RGB data. Fine. Understand that. The R pixels are not a figment of imagination, so they must be recording something, but what? If they aren't RGB, what are they?
    The S2 has one set of pixels, and its a given that its a 6m camera.
    The S3 has two sets of pixels (each of 6m) and yet it still comes out at 6m pixels?
    Owning both an S2 and an S3 and knowing how much better the S3 image is, I fail to see how you can end up with the answer that they are both 6m, when the consensus is that the S3 is about 8m when both pixels are used.
    Otherwise, why would the S3 have the ability to switch off the extra pixels and therefore according to the manual it would function as an S2.

    Phase One, you didn't use it in S2 mode did you? I hope not, and if you did use it in full S3 mode, can C1Pro utilise all the dynamic range of the two sets of pixels?
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    Go back to the article:
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... -pro.shtml
    And see the blowup of the chip, you will notice that both the S2 and the S3 has S & R pixels, so both have the same just that due to the redesign the S pixel, which is the RGB reading pixel, is larger and by that have alower signal-to-noise ratio.

    Again why not do a test, shoot a set of images and try Capture One against the Fuji software and then see the result instead of worrying about technical aspects which in the the end of the day does not really matter if the result Capture One is producing is better the Fujis own software.
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