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16 comments

Date Votes
  • Boris Sheikman
    Hi VirtualRain,

    I did not see anything unusual in your video but I am watching it on my iPad. You know your image better than us so you know what to look for. Perhaps you are seeing more or less detail being rendered in and out of the image as you zoom?

    One thing I noticed is that the preview image in the viewer can look different than the final processed output. Take a look at this shot.

    https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8572/16521186111_60a40c02b5_z.jpg

    IMGP0413 by Never Off, on Flickr

    The sky looked extremely blotchy and gross in the preview. I struggled to mask the foreground from the background but eventually gave up. The branches were too hard to mask. I processed the output and the resulting JPG looked clean. No blotchiness. The sky looks smooth.

    I don't know if the preview window uses some sort of extreme data compression to accelerate rendering on the screen. Maybe this is what may be causing your preview to change.
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  • VirtualRain
    The saturation changes significantly as the viewer gets larger or smaller. (Much more saturated when it's small and much less saturated when it's big). How can you possibly make adjustments if you can't trust what the viewer is showing you? That's like working blind!
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  • Istvan Farkas
    Do you have OpenCL turned on? Can be a problem with the driver...
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  • ---
    c1 has some fundamental flaws nobody cares for as it seems - preview is inaccurate & histogram is off too.
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  • SFA
    Bear in mind that you are seeing a lot more pixels as you zoom in - the preview has to apply some compression and discard pixels to do so.

    In certain situations for certain images the effects may be quite significant when applying specific colour changes. Always best to do the fine tuning assessment at 100% and check whether what you are seeing is influenced by Proof Profile settings and Process recipes.


    Grant
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  • Boris Sheikman
    [quote="Horseoncowboy" wrote:
    c1 has some fundamental flaws nobody cares for as it seems - preview is inaccurate & histogram is off too.


    Whoa! The histogram is inaccurate?! 🤓 That's kind of scary because I almost live and die by it. Can you describe in more detail how it is inaccurate?
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  • Grant Hodgeon
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    The saturation changes significantly as the viewer gets larger or smaller. (Much more saturated when it's small and much less saturated when it's big). How can you possibly make adjustments if you can't trust what the viewer is showing you? That's like working blind!


    That's a strange one, I'm unable to replicate it here with Open CL enabled or disabled. Can you describe steps to reproduce the bug?

    G
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  • ---
    [quote="6BQ5" wrote:
    [quote="Horseoncowboy" wrote:
    c1 has some fundamental flaws nobody cares for as it seems - preview is inaccurate & histogram is off too.


    Whoa! The histogram is inaccurate?! 🤓 That's kind of scary because I almost live and die by it. Can you describe in more detail how it is inaccurate?



    the histogram is different in c1 compared to the rendered file when opend in photoshop or other imaging applications. during the rendering process the whitepoint is shifted resulting in less contrast.
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  • Boris Sheikman
    [quote="Horseoncowboy" wrote:
    the histogram is different in c1 compared to the rendered file when opend in photoshop or other imaging applications. during the rendering process the whitepoint is shifted resulting in less contrast.


    Ahh, ok. Maybe I experienced this! I noticed that my JPG exports in the sRGB color space lacked some detail and in some cases contrast. I compared a 100% views in Preview to C1 side by side. My first thought was that the JPG compression may have done something. Then I switched to Adobe color space and did the same comparison. Now the 100% views matched very well.

    Could this be it?
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  • VirtualRain
    [quote="photoGrant" wrote:
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    The saturation changes significantly as the viewer gets larger or smaller. (Much more saturated when it's small and much less saturated when it's big). How can you possibly make adjustments if you can't trust what the viewer is showing you? That's like working blind!


    That's a strange one, I'm unable to replicate it here with Open CL enabled or disabled. Can you describe steps to reproduce the bug?

    G


    I think a pre-requisite may be that your preview size is less than the maximum size you can make the viewer. For example, if you work on a 2560x1440 display and you set your preview to 2560 or 2880, you probably cannot replicate this problem. EDIT: In fact, I just tried to replicate this on my laptop connected to a 2560x1440 Apple display, and regardless of what preview size I use, I could not replicate this problem. I think something strange happens when the viewer exceeds the max preview size of 2880px. which is obviously impossible to do on anything other than a 4K display.

    I work on a 3840x2160 display and use a 2880px preview so I can easily change the layout so the viewer exceeds 2880px.

    If you have such a setup...
    - Edit an image applying some noticeable (exaggerated) combination of saturation, clarity, structure and sharpness.
    - Change your layout such that the viewer area goes from less than your preview size to larger than your preview size
    - Watch for any change in apparent saturation or micro contrast in the viewer
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  • Grant Hodgeon
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    [quote="photoGrant" wrote:
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    The saturation changes significantly as the viewer gets larger or smaller. (Much more saturated when it's small and much less saturated when it's big). How can you possibly make adjustments if you can't trust what the viewer is showing you? That's like working blind!


    That's a strange one, I'm unable to replicate it here with Open CL enabled or disabled. Can you describe steps to reproduce the bug?

    G


    I think a pre-requisite may be that your preview size is less than the maximum size you can make the viewer. For example, if you work on a 2560x1440 display and you set your preview to 2560 or 2880, you probably cannot replicate this problem. I work on a 3840x2160 display and use a 2880px preview so I can easily change the layout so the viewer exceeds 2880px. I'm going to experiment with the display on my laptop and see if I can replicate it there. It may be the case that this problem is unique to displays where the viewer can exceed 2880px.

    Assuming your image previews are smaller than your desktop...
    - Edit an image applying some noticeable (exaggerated) combination of saturation, clarity, structure and sharpness.
    - Change your layout such that the viewer area goes from less than your preview size to larger than your preview size
    - Watch for any change in apparent saturation or micro contrast in the viewer


    Here's my setup to replicate, let me know if there's anything wrong with how I'm approaching this as I'm unable to replicate it.

    - Dual Monitor. Key Monitor is 2560x1440
    - Preview Size: 800px
    - Image severely exaggerated in saturation
    - Open CL Enabled

    I replicated what you did w/ expanding/shrinking the thumbnail view to expand/shrink the preview image and saw no changes at all other than the pixilation/tearing you get when live rendering an updated preview. No colour shift that you're seeing.

    A strange one for sure.
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  • VirtualRain
    [quote="photoGrant" wrote:

    Here's my setup to replicate, let me know if there's anything wrong with how I'm approaching this as I'm unable to replicate it.

    - Dual Monitor. Key Monitor is 2560x1440
    - Preview Size: 800px
    - Image severely exaggerated in saturation
    - Open CL Enabled

    I replicated what you did w/ expanding/shrinking the thumbnail view to expand/shrink the preview image and saw no changes at all other than the pixilation/tearing you get when live rendering an updated preview. No colour shift that you're seeing.

    A strange one for sure.


    I was just updating my post as you wrote this. I cannot replicate it on a 2560x1440 display either.

    It seems the problem only occurs if you can make the viewer exceed 2880px which is only possible on a 4K display. ☹️
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  • Grant Hodgeon
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    [quote="photoGrant" wrote:

    Here's my setup to replicate, let me know if there's anything wrong with how I'm approaching this as I'm unable to replicate it.

    - Dual Monitor. Key Monitor is 2560x1440
    - Preview Size: 800px
    - Image severely exaggerated in saturation
    - Open CL Enabled

    I replicated what you did w/ expanding/shrinking the thumbnail view to expand/shrink the preview image and saw no changes at all other than the pixilation/tearing you get when live rendering an updated preview. No colour shift that you're seeing.

    A strange one for sure.


    I was just updating my post as you wrote this. I cannot replicate it on a 2560x1440 display either.

    It seems the problem only occurs if you can make the viewer exceed 2880px which is only possible on a 4K display. ☹️


    I shouldn't laugh but your misfortune with your 4k display is becoming comical at this point. Where's the urgency to fix this shit?
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  • VirtualRain
    [quote="photoGrant" wrote:
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    [quote="photoGrant" wrote:

    Here's my setup to replicate, let me know if there's anything wrong with how I'm approaching this as I'm unable to replicate it.

    - Dual Monitor. Key Monitor is 2560x1440
    - Preview Size: 800px
    - Image severely exaggerated in saturation
    - Open CL Enabled

    I replicated what you did w/ expanding/shrinking the thumbnail view to expand/shrink the preview image and saw no changes at all other than the pixilation/tearing you get when live rendering an updated preview. No colour shift that you're seeing.

    A strange one for sure.


    I was just updating my post as you wrote this. I cannot replicate it on a 2560x1440 display either.

    It seems the problem only occurs if you can make the viewer exceed 2880px which is only possible on a 4K display. ☹️


    I shouldn't laugh but your misfortune with your 4k display is becoming comical at this point. Where's the urgency to fix this shit?


    I know... it's getting rather frustrating. When I can't trust what I see in the viewer, the application loses all value.

    I have a support case and someone wants to do a screen share with me in the next few days. I pity them if they are on a typical display. 😊
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  • Grant Hodgeon
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    .

    I have a support case and someone wants to do a screen share with me in the next few days. I pity them if they are on a typical display. 😊


    WELL.

    In the mean time is it possible to have a 'Viewer' window in your second monitor? So you can view that full screen and make your changes, there? I'm sure a simple test file or two should let you know whether or not what you're seeing is accurate when you're making your creative changes.
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  • VirtualRain
    [quote="photoGrant" wrote:
    [quote="VirtualRain" wrote:
    .

    I have a support case and someone wants to do a screen share with me in the next few days. I pity them if they are on a typical display. 😊


    WELL.

    In the mean time is it possible to have a 'Viewer' window in your second monitor? So you can view that full screen and make your changes, there? I'm sure a simple test file or two should let you know whether or not what you're seeing is accurate when you're making your creative changes.


    I have a pair of 4K displays, so it's not going to be easy to solve this. Since I'm not hopeful support will solve it, since it appears to be a bug with how the viewer renders an image when it exceeds the preview image size. It's clearly not appling the adjustments to the RAW file the same way it is to the preview image.

    I need to spend some time working on a suitable workaround... you would think that merely limiting my layout so the viewer is sized less than 2880px would do the trick. However, sometimes the viewer is accurate when it's smaller than 2880px and sometimes its accurate when it's larger. Having to export a JPEG for every image I adjust to see what's accurate is going to get tedious quickly. I will try running in a scaled lower HiDPI resolution next and see how that goes, but then I'm giving up the benefits of having the great desktop real-estate that 4K offers.

    However, I may just have to entertain the idea that C1 is not for me since it's just not usable on my display.
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