Dynamic range slider isn't good
I've been using the version 7 since it was first release this week. I';ve been comparing the dynamic range slider to LR. I am a bit disappointed with version 7. It cannot match the sliders in LR4. However it is a big improvement from version 6.
I wish phaseone team have added high dynamic sliders as a local adjustment as well...
I wish phaseone team have added high dynamic sliders as a local adjustment as well...
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Can you show use some comparisons? 0 -
[quote="rave81" wrote:
I've been comparing the dynamic range slider to LR. I am a bit disappointed with version 7. It cannot match the sliders in LR4.
True - not remotely as good as Lr4, and comprehensively knocked into the long grass by Photo Ninja too.0 -
I have performed some tests during the weekend to find out how good the "new "HDR tools are. My conclusion is, of course, it is not as good as advertised from Phase One. However, I have received some decent results, not that far away from LR. My main test image, a capture of an artificial lit old castle during blue hour, looked really great using C1 HDR tools combined with the color tools used for selective control of the luminance of single colors. I was able to get great results with LR too, but the C1 image looked much more natural to me (just my own opinion). The biggest advantage is the detail rendering, which comes up with really good results. It was just impossible for me to reproduce that number of sharpness with LR by keeping noise on a low level.
I have been using LR since the first beta of Version 1 and would say I am really experienced with it. During the past 6 month I have used only LR and was very pleased with the results. However, C1 7 is a leap forward vom C1 6, not as much as I would have wished, but there is some progress. However, I have not yet decided whether to buy an upgrade vom C1 6 to C1 7.
Regards,
Joerg0 -
You must be kidding...🙄 🙄
learn to use it properly...it is far better than LR4 (I own both software), it gives more, it keeps à better contrast in the image, better color saturation and density ; and last but not least you have also a way much better roll off between high lights and xtra highlights.
PS : Don't forget to update your files to CaptureOne 7 processing.0 -
[quote="Benjamin Didier" wrote:
PS : Don't forget to update your files to CaptureOne 7 processing.
That's the point. For all existing RAW files, you have to manually apply the new processing engine on them, otherwise you won't be able to see the benefits. It's strange why the new engine is not applied by default.
Once I tried the new engine, I like the HDR, it's really significantly improved. Is it better or worse than LR4, I have no idea, I don't use it.
Here are some picture comparison I did for C1 6.4 and LR4. I believe C1 6.4 is better in the areas that matter more to me.
http://forum.xitek.com/thread-974643-1-1-1.html0 -
when accessing old RAW's what do you mean when you say "you have to manually apply the new processing engine"? IF I'm using CO7 is that not the only CO engine I have (since when I installed 7 I "replaced" 6)? 0 -
Under the Basic Characteristics tool. 0 -
In previous version of C1 I almost never used HDR tools, because it tends to flatten the contrast of the image, the benefit of LR4 so far was to give better highlights but keeping more or less a good contrast in the image. I would prefer until v7 to mask highlighted zone in Photoshop or in C1 depending. But now with the quality of this tool I will save time and quality on my most difficult images.
Here is an exemple of C1 v6 (on the left) and C1 v7 (right), I only did an ighlight recovery of 30%... As you can see I still have a natural image on v7 and a flatten one on v6 (and less highlights recovery) : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14960883/Capture%20d%E2%80%99%C3%A9cran%202012-10-26%20%C3%A0%2011.15.43.png
Now (sorry for the crapy pic taken with a compact camera : Ricoh GRDIII) a comparison between LR4 and C1 v7...on both images highlights sliders are on maximum, the result speaks for itself : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14960883/Highlights-recovery.jpg
Right click on the image and save as...if you want to see the whole image.0 -
If CO7 applied its new rendering engine automatically to RAW files you had already on your system, it would be making unauthorised changes. Thats not a good situation to have happening. 0 -
[quote="Benjamin Didier" wrote:
You must be kidding...🙄 🙄
learn to use it properly...it is far better than LR4 (I own both software), it gives more, it keeps à better contrast in the image, better color saturation and density ; and last but not least you have also a way much better roll off between high lights and xtra highlights.
PS : Don't forget to update your files to CaptureOne 7 processing.
For those who want to see the difference in rendering between v.6 and v.7, here is a simple way to do so:
1. Find an image that had previously been rendered in v.6
2. Create a clone variant. This will represent the "before" sample.
3. With the original image, go to the Quick tab and find the Base Characteristics panel.
4. Select "Upgrade" to change rendering to v.7. This is the "after" sample.
5. Now switch between the v.6 and v.7 images to compare the two.
To my eyes, there is little doubt the v.7 is significantly improved, and I have been favorably impressed with highlight recovery. I cannot comment on how it compares to LR4/ACR or Photo Ninja, as I do not use either of those programs.
Edit: One thing that I have noticed is that the Clarity tool is much stronger than before and must be used more judiciously.
Rob0 -
[quote="robgo2" wrote:
Edit: One thing that I have noticed is that the Clarity tool is much stronger than before and must be used more judiciously.
Rob
Cannot agree more...
But remember if the tool can go one way (+) it also goes opposite way (-). 😉0 -
After performing some more testings I found out that the shadow recovery works extremely well, I have not found any other application which gives me results with that quality. It is just awesome how even nearly non visible details can be recovered while keeping noise on a very low level. However, the highlight recovery is according to my current experience not as good as LR. The difference is not big, but visible. Nevertheless the overall quality of the HDR tools is quite good.
Regards,
Joerg0 -
[quote="robgo2" wrote:
1. Find an image that had previously been rendered in v.6
2. Create a clone variant. This will represent the "before" sample.
3. With the original image, go to the Quick tab and find the Base Characteristics panel.
4. Select "Upgrade" to change rendering to v.7. This is the "after" sample.
5. Now switch between the v.6 and v.7 images to compare the two.
Rob
When I clone a image, the cloned variant is automatically rendered with the v7 engine.0 -
[quote="EDB" wrote:
[quote="robgo2" wrote:
1. Find an image that had previously been rendered in v.6
2. Create a clone variant. This will represent the "before" sample.
3. With the original image, go to the Quick tab and find the Base Characteristics panel.
4. Select "Upgrade" to change rendering to v.7. This is the "after" sample.
5. Now switch between the v.6 and v.7 images to compare the two.
Rob
When I clone a image, the cloned variant is automatically rendered with the v7 engine.
Not on my machine. Make sure that you choose "Clone Variant," not "New Variant." Then check the Quick tab to be sure that it is v.6.
Rob0 -
[quote="Benjamin Didier" wrote:
learn to use it properly...
Sigh...
I reckon I'd be able to run rings round you in the "using software properly" stakes, hotshot - managing extreme highlights is my idea of fun, and I know more than most about how best to do it. And what with.
The simple fact is this. Lightroom and Photo Ninja can do this, trivially easily:
Lightroom:
http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/IMG_3431.jpg
to
http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/muscovy_duck_bolam_1a.jpg
Photo Ninja:
http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/mute_swan_marden_PN_5.jpg
Capture One Pro 7 cannot, no matter where the High Dynamic Range sliders are placed, and not even with additional assistance being provided by the Levels and Curves tools. In fact, what Capture One does for the swan is turn the highlights pink/magenta. What it fails to do is recover the feather detail and texture you can see here.
And before you mention the LCC HDR trick, we're not talking about that.
7 is better than 6, but if you think it's now a match for either Lr or Photo Ninja in the highlight detail recovery stakes, you're deluding youself - and, I'll bet, not pushing highlights nearly as hard as I do as a matter of course.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
[quote="Benjamin Didier" wrote:
learn to use it properly...
Sigh...
I reckon I'd be able to run rings round you in the "using software properly" stakes, hotshot - managing extreme highlights is my idea of fun, and I know more than most about how best to do it. And what with.
The simple fact is this. Lightroom and Photo Ninja can do this, trivially easily:
Lightroom:
http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/IMG_3431.jpg
to
http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/muscovy_duck_bolam_1a.jpg
Photo Ninja:
http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/mute_swan_marden_PN_5.jpg
Capture One Pro 7 cannot, no matter where the High Dynamic Range sliders are placed, and not even with additional assistance being provided by the Levels and Curves tools. In fact, what Capture One does for the swan is turn the highlights pink/magenta. What it fails to do is recover the feather detail and texture you can see here.
And before you mention the LCC HDR trick, we're not talking about that.
7 is better than 6, but if you think it's now a match for either Lr or Photo Ninja in the highlight detail recovery stakes, you're deluding youself - and, I'll bet, not pushing highlights nearly as hard as I do as a matter of course.
Sorry Keith if you took it for yourself, it was not my goal (and my english is not fluent as yours).
Anyway my point is that most of the time people are complaining about something and they just don't realize they make mistakes or not using the device properly...For exemple with this new version a lot of people forgot to update their files from v6 process to v7 (exactly the same with each new Lightroom version if you want to benefit the improvements).
You can imagine that I did several tests and comparison as I am also a Lightroom registred user... Highlights recovery and high dynamic range are important to me because one of my core business is interior photography with natural lights (I use reflectors when needed), of course most of the time I need to stack in Photoshop different exposure pictures to get a proper an natural result...but I if I have an easy and efficient HDR tools it saves me some time. And I can assure you that, at least with my tests, I any case C1v7 did a much better job than Lightroom 4 (I don't use Photo Ninja)...and by the way I posted earlier an obvious comparison between the 2 softwares, you may not noticed it.
Of course for me it is not a question of supremacy between softwares, I do not care...I have always liked CaptureOne for about 8 years, because it gaves a color and image texture that I prefer, the workflow is very efficient...it lacks compared to Lightroom a good library system so it is why, among other few reasons, I continue to use it.
Anyway the best tools are the one you are comfortable with...
For now I am just wondering why we have totally opposite conclusions, it is not a question about who is right or wrong, who cares, it is just to understand why our results are so differents?0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
Capture One Pro 7 cannot, no matter where the High Dynamic Range sliders are placed, and not even with additional assistance being provided by the Levels and Curves tools. In fact, what Capture One does for the swan is turn the highlights pink/magenta.
Hey Keith,
I think we can actually, in fact I'm confident we can. I think there is something else going on here based on your description and If you could get us some of those files through a support case we'd be happy to look into it further.0 -
After reading some of Keith's comments about Photo Ninja, I downloaded the program and have been playing with it for the past two days. I must agree with him the Photo Ninja has more effective highlight recovery than Capture One 7. At the same time, C1 may be better with shadow detail. In terms of overall detail, it is hard for me to draw a firm conclusion either way. Some images look better with one program, while others look better with the other program. It does not appear that Photo Ninja has a specific profile for my camera (Pentax K-5), which may limit its usefulness for me. Also, it is a bit of a pain to use.
My standard of comparison for raw convertors is Raw Photo Processor (RPP). C1-7 is a definite improvement over C1-6, but it is not at the same level as RPP and, thus, is not a "revolution" in imaging quality. Still, I give credit to Phase One's designers and engineers for addressing some of the weaknesses of the previous version.
Rob0 -
First of all: yes, way better than in v6.
My main critique of the Highlights slider is that it's still too wideband for my taste. It darkens way more in the image than I care for. Also when using it in its higher ranges it tends to give the distinct "HDR look". Especially with people.
I do find LR's tools an their separation into 4 parameters (whites, blacks, highlights, shadows) more precise and effective. I don't think C1's whites and blacks parameters in Levels do the same (i.e. interact with the Highlight and Shadow sliders as well).0 -
[quote="Thomas Geist" wrote:
First of all: yes, way better than in v6.
My main critique of the Highlights slider is that it's still too wideband for my taste. It darkens way more in the image than I care for. Also when using it in its higher ranges it tends to give the distinct "HDR look". Especially with people.
I do find LR's tools an their separation into 4 parameters (whites, blacks, highlights, shadows) more precise and effective. I don't think C1's whites and blacks parameters in Levels do the same (i.e. interact with the Highlight and Shadow sliders as well).
Hi Thomas,
I don't know if your are very experienced with C1, but what I can tell you is that LR and C1 works differently, LR's tool is nice and easy and works nicely no question about it, but with C1 you need to have another way to process.
The thing is if you think Black & White levels in C1 will do the same as LR does especially with white levels wich is in fact a combination of level and highlights tool, you are wrong, C1's level tool is very traditional and never intend to be an high dynamic range tool especially for highlights and shadows...by the way don't forget that in C1's level tool you can also redistribute mid-level tones.
So when you adjust an image in C1 before starting with highlights, adjust you image the way you in exposure, level, contrast, color...and at the end if you have clipping whites and you know you have something in those whites you can adjust your high lights in the HDR tool.
Images speaks better than words :
1) Image is adjusted to the way I want to produce it...But something is missing in the stone :
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14960883/_BEN6244.jpg
2) The difference now is that I just slide the highlight tool to a value of 54 out of 100.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14960883/_BEN6244%201.jpg
The result should once again speaks for itself...The global contrast of my picture is maintained but my stone is looking better...at least for me, but I will probably push the highlights recovery a bit less for my final version 😉
I did several tests and most of the time HDR adjustments are light or not necessary so all in all I can have more or less the same results in compared with LR...but as I showed previously when it comes to very strong adjustments C1 does a better a job. In number a -100 in LR white tool is around 40 in C1's highlight HDR tool...so don't push it too hard 😉
I am also testing Photo Ninja because I am curious, Smart Lighting can give nice result...the benefit from it is that it does exposure/shadow/highlights and color recovery automaticaly and then you can readjust to your own taste...but it did not gave me better result than in C1 when I have the adjustments I want...it is just very fast and easy, which can be a huge benefit depending on how you want to produce your images. But anyway, this not enough powerful and profesionnal for my needs.
As always, the best tool is the one that you are most comfortable with...0 -
Benjamin,
sorry, but you haven't recovered anything there - that's not highlight recovery, as everything in the second image is already visible in the first.
Highlight recovery as I mean the phrase involves reconstructing "detail" data from information left in any channel that isn't completely blown - Lightroom and Photo Ninja do that, Raw Therapee has had this ability for years, DxO Optics does it; but I see no evidence that Capture One does anything more than apply a glorified Curve and compressing the top end of the histogram.0 -
[quote="Benjamin Didier" wrote:
Images speaks better than words :
As always, the best tool is the one that you are most comfortable with...
Benjamin - very nice image and wonderful treatment.0 -
seems like alot of splitting hairs here.
in my experience its a nice convienence to have highlight recovery in a raw converter - but rarely do I want to get it all in one image.
i'd much rather process a base image and them process separate highlight and shadow versions if needed and composite in Photoshop. I'm very very comfortable in photoshop so no big deal to me.
also in photoshop you can use the apply image command with blend modes to recover information if you don't have access to a raw file. it works very well.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
Benjamin,
sorry, but you haven't recovered anything there - that's not highlight recovery, as everything in the second image is already visible in the first.
Highlight recovery as I mean the phrase involves reconstructing "detail" data from information left in any channel that isn't completely blown - Lightroom and Photo Ninja do that, Raw Therapee has had this ability for years, DxO Optics does it; but I see no evidence that Capture One does anything more than apply a glorified Curve and compressing the top end of the histogram.
Keith, as mentioned earlier in this thread there must be something else going on.
The c1v6 engine did not do any reconstruction when one channel was blown. The c1v7 engine does.
I find v7 recovery modestly better than LR, but would respect someone else's opinion if they found it modestly less than LR. But if you're seeing dramatically less recovery ability in C1v7 vs LR4 then something is awry.
Perhaps you're being hit by some bug or user error or misunderstanding wherein you're not getting v7 engine results. When an old image is brought in it uses the v6 engine until you specifically go to the image and select to upgrade to the v7 engine for that image (under base characteristics). If you've done this and still don't see any BIG improvement in highlight recovery versus v6 then I suspect you're seeing some kind of bug. Have you started a support case or spoken with your dealer?0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
Benjamin,
sorry, but you haven't recovered anything there - that's not highlight recovery, as everything in the second image is already visible in the first.
Highlight recovery as I mean the phrase involves reconstructing "detail" data from information left in any channel that isn't completely blown - Lightroom and Photo Ninja do that, Raw Therapee has had this ability for years, DxO Optics does it; but I see no evidence that Capture One does anything more than apply a glorified Curve and compressing the top end of the histogram.
Hello Keith,
Have you seen my previous post comparing LR4 and C1v7 with blown highlights?
Anyway marketing of DxO or any software can tell you what they want, a software cannot and will not be able to rebuild what the camera did not record...it is as simple as this. If my D3 has 12,5 stops of dynamic range, nor Photo Ninja, nor LR, nor DxO or Raw Therapee will give my D3 a 13 EV of dynamic range, not even 12,6 EV.
High dynamic tool have just the ability to apply, as you mentionned it, a better curve...the one that preserve for exemple highlights whitout compromising the contrast and colors of the whole image...It is exactly what C1v7 does with a very nice quality result compared to other software, and by the way according to my test Photo Ninja and C1v7 have the same amount of recovery, you can even push more in Photo Ninja but you just recover grey or false colors and the image has an awful contrast.
The best way will always be the one that describes Edward51 whom I totally agree with :[quote="Edward51" wrote:
...it is exactly what I do when I do interiors in available light where I have to manage 16 or 17 EV sometimes and give a pleasing image to my clients of 8EV because it is what you need to get at the end. Of course if my camera can record enough dynamic I will just use masks and local adjustement in C1, now that the tool is finaly convenient.
but rarely do I want to get it all in one image.
i'd much rather process a base image and them process separate highlight and shadow versions if needed and composite in Photoshop. I'm very very comfortable in photoshop so no big deal to me.
also in photoshop you can use the apply image command with blend modes to recover information if you don't have access to a raw file. it works very well.
All in all, there is no magic in raw software highlights recovery and every different tools, there is nothing (appart from optics/lenses corrections and noise reduction) that a very skilled person with Photoshop cannot do, just the ability to give more efficiently, more quickly a better result/the result you expect, because photography is an industry (I am part of it) and time is money...and with this new version of CaptureOne I will save time and money, I have spend a whole week (fortunately I am between 2 jobs until next week) testing it to see what I can get with this new version, and I definitely get a lot more, it is all I asked from PhaseOne 😉
Once again, as I am used to show in image my statements, here is another one and probably the last comparison (between Photo Ninja and C1v7) I will publish because I have to move on, but will be happy to discuss that matter on other basis.
Here is the original image taken with a Ricoh GRDIII (compact camera), as you can obviously see there are blown highlights :
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14960883/Original-Pic.jpg
Now see for yourself how the two softwares handle highlights recovery push to maximum in both softwares :
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14960883/Highlight-recovery-Photo-Ninja-vs-C1v7.jpg
Well, Photo Ninja gives nothing more than C1v7, but the hair color and skin tone in C1 is much more realistic. The only difference is that Photo Ninja does it automaticaly, and then you will have to adjust yourself, in C1 you need to do things manually but when you are a little bit experienced with it it takes you no more than 20 seconds...anyway this photo's destiny is trash in both case 😄
So if you still experience bad results with C1v7, you might, as Drew told you, send a support case.
Best regards
Benjamin0 -
[quote="Edward51" wrote:
[quote="Benjamin Didier" wrote:
Images speaks better than words :
As always, the best tool is the one that you are most comfortable with...
Benjamin - very nice image and wonderful treatment.
Thanks very much Edward.
Hope NYC and East coast are recovering from Sandy.
Best regards.0
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