Expression Media and EIP
I have been a happy user of Iview and EM2 user for a long time. It has served me well in managing my digital files. Back in the old CO3 days when you shot portraits in BW (with a BW profile), the raw files rendered in BW in Iview. Shooting in CO4 or 5 they will only render in colour even if a BW profil is used. Now the the EIP format has arrived one should think that this problem is solved but these files are not even recognized and folders with EIP files appear empty in EM2. So if you don't doublecheck these folders they are very easy to delete by accident. So I hope that PhaseOne can make this EIP files supported in EM.
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Of course that is in the agenda.
Currently Expression Media 2 only supports the Phase One RAW TIF format and IIQ.0 -
I can't say much specifically about EIP as I've not used the format (partly because I don't like it in principle). However, are you aware that you can edit the custom importers text file and so add any file extension to the list of file types that can be imported?
John0 -
No, I'm not aware of that. Could you please enlighten me how to? 0 -
OK, essentially what we are doing is editing what appears in File > Catalog Importers. This is based on a file called custom.txt which is in a few places.
The best one to edit is inside the EM2 app - use Show Package Contents to open the app. Then Contents/SharedSupport/Plug-ins/Importers . Use TextEdit to add a line "EIP|0|CaptureOne packages" - the EIP being the extension, 0 meaning it'll be grouped in images, and the last bit describes what it is. Restart EM2, and EIP should be listed under images in Catalog Importers.
Now, that's the theory - but just now I tried it with EM2 and it doesn't seem to work. I'll ping someone else who may have tried it more recently.
John0 -
OK, I made a little slip. You'll need to add an entry like this: EIP |0|Phase One EIP
Notice the space after the "EIP"
That then lists EIP as a file type that's possible to import. Whether EM will import it is for you to test - as I said, I dislike the EIP concept and this is just the kind of compatibility problem that it was bound to create....
John0 -
John,
Although that process does allow the software to "see" the EIP files, it will not allow for the thumbnails to load as it cannot extract them. It further will have no real functionality for these types of files. Ultimately it is best to simply unpack the EIP files in Capture One 5 and then access them (as either IIQ or TIF) through Expression Media.0 -
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
as I said, I dislike the EIP concept and this is just the kind of compatibility problem that it was bound to create....
Not sure why, the EIP format is simply a ".ZIP" and can be unpacked and accessed just as easy through almost any unarchiving software simply by changing the extension to ".ZIP"0 -
[quote="Drew " wrote:
John,
Although that process does allow the software to "see" the EIP files, it will not allow for the thumbnails to load as it cannot extract them. It further will have no real functionality for these types of files. Ultimately it is best to simply unpack the EIP files in Capture One 5 and then access them (as either IIQ or TIF) through Expression Media.
Sure, Drew, you can't see the thumbnails, but managing the files is "real functionality" (and the OP was interested in knowing they exist).[quote="Drew " wrote:
Not sure why, the EIP format is simply a ".ZIP" and can be unpacked and accessed just as easy through almost any unarchiving software simply by changing the extension to ".ZIP"
I understand what it is, but the glorified zip file approach means users are going to have to wait for apps to be re-engineered to do more than manage these package-type files, so "real functionality" is put further away. I'm not sure how many apps offer any EIP support right now, but I'm sure many will never do so, and the unpacking route is slightly awkward and CaptureOne dependent. Compare that to DNG - a single-file solution that's already there, worked wonderfully with iView 3-4 years ago, and can accept any descriptive or adjustment metadata anyone wants to throw at it.
John0 -
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
Compare that to DNG - a single-file solution that's already there, worked wonderfully with iView 3-4 years ago, and can accept any descriptive or adjustment metadata anyone wants to throw at it.
you can include the original raw file intact in DNG, but I 'd assume that you can't exclude at the same time the raw data to be duplicated (w/ some modifications) inside it... so if you want to keep the original raw file inside DNG it will be ~2x times EIP file size... I'd assume that DNG standard does not allow you to keep just the metadata + preview(s) + original raw file - you have to put the bulk of the raw data also, effectively doubling the size...0 -
[quote="deejjjaaaa" wrote:
you can include the original raw file intact in DNG, but I 'd assume that you can't exclude at the same time the raw data to be duplicated (w/ some modifications) inside it... so if you want to keep the original raw file inside DNG it will be ~2x times EIP file size... I'd assume that DNG standard does not allow you to keep just the metadata + preview(s) + original raw file - you have to put the bulk of the raw data also, effectively doubling the size...
You can do so if you want, and it does roughly double the size, but there's really no reason to do so. Most people don't, and DNGs are almost always smaller than the raw files from which they were made.
John0 -
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
[quote="deejjjaaaa" wrote:
you can include the original raw file intact in DNG, but I 'd assume that you can't exclude at the same time the raw data to be duplicated (w/ some modifications) inside it... so if you want to keep the original raw file inside DNG it will be ~2x times EIP file size... I'd assume that DNG standard does not allow you to keep just the metadata + preview(s) + original raw file - you have to put the bulk of the raw data also, effectively doubling the size...
You can do so if you want, and it does roughly double the size, but there's really no reason to do so. Most people don't, and DNGs are almost always smaller than the raw files from which they were made.
John
of course if you do not want to have the original raw file stored intact you do not have the issue, but the whole point is to keep it (the original raw file) as is, as it was produced by your camera's firmware = so you can't avoid 2x size... otherwise P1 might as well just use .DNG as its in-camera raw file format... as for "most people don't" - most people do not know that Adobe's own DNG converter does not preserve all the raw data during conversion for example, albeit you can argue that it is not that important that some data got discarded (w/o any warning that is) the point is that Adobe is not exactly openly telling this to its customers - you have to dig that yourself...0 -
That's simply wrong. All the raw data is preserved in the DNG including anything that Adobe doesn't parse. 0 -
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
That's simply wrong. All the raw data is preserved in the DNG including anything that Adobe doesn't parse.
no, you just do not have a clue - during .NEF to .DNG conversion for example the masked area read off the sensor is removed from Nikon D90 and D300 files by Adobe DNG converter and for Pentax K20D... you might argue that Adobe does necessary correction during the process - but the fact is - what you have in .DNG file is not all the data read off the sensor that camera firmware wrote in .NEF file... read less marketing material.0 -
Believe whatever FUD you wish. I really don't need to read marketing material, by the way. 0 -
Hi,
I support John's comments and can see a big DNG protestant/catholic debate coming on. Phase One don't seem to "believe" in DNG with half baked support in their raw converter. The workflow benefits and archival aspect of DNG is totally misunderstood by Phase One. I appreciate the Phase One philosophy of treating proprietary raw files as read-only but that does not apply to documented file formats.
If DNG support is reduced in Expression Media I can no longer recommend the product and would refer users back to iView until they hit a compatibility issue. Even Microsoft understood the importance of DNG support when they they still had the iView engineers.
-- Robert.0 -
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
Believe whatever FUD you wish.
it is not FUD - those are the facts... Adobe DNG converter does not preserve all the information that was read off the sensor - but it this has nothing to do w/ the format itself - it is just the implementation... so point is - it is nice to have DNG implemented by manufacturer itself (like Pentax, Samsung, Ricoh, Leica did), however it is not very safe to convert non .DNG raw files to .DNG for archiving purposes, that's it, moreover when raw converters like C1 do not support converted (to .DNG) raw files fully.0 -
[quote="deejjjaaaa" wrote:
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
Believe whatever FUD you wish.
it is not FUD - those are the facts....
This reminds me of Monty Python'a argument sketch. Have I strayed into the dpReview room?
John
PS thanks Robert - good to see the old iView folk still caring about the product.0 -
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
That's simply wrong. All the raw data is preserved in the DNG including anything that Adobe doesn't parse.
DNG does not necessarily keep "All" the data. Depending on what program you use and what adjustments you make, your original RAW (in it's original form) may be lost forever when using DNG. There is no hard and fast rule here.
Not to harp on it but this is why I like EIP, your original RAW is never adjusted. It remains preserved throughout the editing process and keeps everything safe and sound.0 -
[quote="Drew " wrote:
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
That's simply wrong. All the raw data is preserved in the DNG including anything that Adobe doesn't parse.
DNG does not necessarily keep "All" the data. Depending on what program you use and what adjustments you make, your original RAW (in it's original form) may be lost forever when using DNG.
exactly the point - Adobe DNG converter is at fault...
John can venture to dpreview and read the discussion for example (one of many examples) where the loss of data is pointed out by one of Bibble raw converter developers Coleen Vermillion among others (well known GordonBGood), who knows a little bit more about raw files that he (John) ever will.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readf ... e=345572020 -
It's patently obvious - almost to the point of inanity - to say that "your original RAW (in it's [sic] original form)" isn't preserved. As I put it "all the raw data is preserved in the DNG including anything that Adobe doesn't parse." Whether you know how to get at that unparsed information is another matter, but nothing is thrown away.
I'll ignore deejjjaaaa's insulting comments. If that's the type of poster that inhabits these forums.....0 -
[quote="johnbeardy" wrote:
It's patently obvious - almost to the point of inanity - to say that "your original RAW (in it's [sic] original form)" isn't preserved. As I put it "all the raw data is preserved in the DNG including anything that Adobe doesn't parse." Whether you know how to get at that unparsed information is another matter, but nothing is thrown away.
take some time to read the link posted for your education - Adobe DNG converter does not save (= throws away) all the information read off the sensor when it converts OEM raw files (from certain cameras) to .DNG... you can't extract that information later because it is simply not written, it is thrown away, because Adobe thinks (w/o much publicity - you are a fine example of that) on your behalf that you do not need it ever... you might make a point that it is not that important, but that does not change the fact... the utility written by GordonBGood for high ISO Pentax K20D raw files ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readf ... 881&page=1) is a fine example - as Adobe DNG converter throws away the masked black photosites while converting .PEF to .DNG, you can't do the necessary operation w/ the converted .DNG... somehow you wrongly assume that if format itself supports storing of all the information then converters will be lossless, well they are not - at least Adobe DNG converter is not...0 -
some more for John's education
http://forums.adobe.com/message/1210138#1210138
nick "Panoholic" is Gabor Schorr, the author of the well known freeware rawnalyze program
PS: up the that thread note the comment from Eric Chan (aka Madmanchan2000), Adobe own employee from ACR team:
"Like Gabor, for archival purposes I recommend (and practice) safely storing the original raw files in the form that they came off the camera"... that's it.0 -
Whoa!
John Beardsworth is an internationally renowned DAM expert. He consults to industry, has published books on the subject, and is sent to the other side of the planet for developers to tap his knowledge. He understands the big picture that no-one here does. John shares his knowledge freely on forums such as this.
Getting hung up on details and replying with insult demonstrates ignorance. To lose his expertise here will be a huge loss to the Phase One community and greatly devalue the worth of Expression Media under its ownership.
FWIW like John I archive own virgin camera raw files and use DNG for a bullet proof DAM workflow. YMMV.
-- Robert.0 -
[quote="Robert2721" wrote:
Whoa!
John Beardsworth is an internationally renowned DAM expert.
who has no damn clue how things are actually working... sometimes it will not hurt such "experts" to study the code0 -
Deep Breaths everyone, keep it professional or I'll have to close the thread. 0 -
Inhale.... exhale...
Thanks Drew! This was turning into a DP Review thread.
-- Robert.0 -
we can move to Adobe DNG forum if you prefer -> http://forums.adobe.com/community/dng 0 -
Getting back to what the OP was about...
EIP was able to be catalogued in Expression Media 2 on Windows using WIC:
http://www.damsimple.com/lists/images/eip.png
But not Mac. Apple Finder and Quicklook can show EIP files so I assume it's not difficult to implement. Neither the Windows or Mac version of Expression Media can sync annotations to EIP files.
-- Robert.0
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