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Trialling your software. My thoughts after two days.

Elliott Coleman
I've spent the last few days trialling Capture One 9 and I love the raw processing. The colours are so much better than Lightroom as is the micro contrast, sharpening, layering etc etc. On this point I'm sold.
But Capture One just seems to be so full of bugs and infuriating to use. How do C1P users put up with this?

The catalogs are just plain awful. I spent an hour trying to add smart folders with various rules that just wouldn't work. No images where added to the smart album. After an hour of messing around I gave up and closed Capture One. A few hours later I opened Capture One again and low and behold all the smart folders where working. So clearly a bug there.

I imported my Lightroom Catalog (A feature in Capture one). Around 1/3 or my images never imported (CR2 and DNG files). I had to sync folders to get the missing images. Another Bug.

Having to switch your tool all the time is a pain as it is and even more so when the short cut keys don't work. I've had times where I can press v until I'm blue in the face but it never changes to the pointer.

I spent some time editing an image from a smart folder and wanted to edit in an external editor for some touch up work. Capture One won't let you send a file to an external editor from any user setup group, smart album or album. You have to go and find the image in the folders section. Why? Surely you just reference the original file?

When I open Capture One it straight away uses around 9Gb Ram and after editing just a few images, It's using nearly 20Gb RAM. All the sliders and image re-rendering is unusably slow. A restart fixes this. This is unacceptable.

I've had a number of occasions where clicking the Black and White tick box to convert the image to black and white does nothing. You can click it on and off until the cows come home but the image remains in colour. Using their B/W presets don't work either. Restarting C1P fixes this. Another bug!

Does Phone One not test their software? I've been using it for a couple of days sporadically and I've already found so many bugs it's unbelievable.
And you expect me to pay them 279 Euro for this crap.!!!!!!!

Capture One. Great Raw processing, really shit user interface and buggy software.
I'm afraid as much as I love your processing there is no way in hell I'm parting with my money for this.

RANT OVER.

Edit: Another bug in the advanced colour editor
I have select two colours. A yellow (RGB 215 193 108) and a dark blue/grey (RGB 25 24 24)

It doesn't matter which of the two colours I pick, if I change the lightness, hue, saturation only the yellow colour changes.
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Comments

36 comments

Date Votes
  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter
    I think that you should contact support, because several of the features you are having problems with work fine for me and for most users. They may be able to get you up and running satisfactorily.



    Ian
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  • Permanently deleted user
    I agree with Ian. I never experienced any of your "bugs", and Capture One works perfectly well on my computer.
    Did you let the previews to be created after having imported your catalog from Lightroom ? Because the first time I tried Capture One, I simply waited for the catalog to be imported, but not for the previews to be created, and I got a lot of "bugs", in such a way that I gave up. The second time, I let the previews to be created (about a full night for my 15000 images), and it worked quite well.
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  • Drugstore
    I can second most of what ecoleman said. As I could upgrade I did so. But really unhappy with UI and catalog workflow. It's just a nightmare compared to the LR workflow. Catalog is just clear, simple and logically. No idea why it must be so clumsy in CO. Just staying because of the raw engine but won't/can't give up LR right now.
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    I think that you should contact support, because several of the features you are having problems with work fine for me and for most users. They may be able to get you up and running satisfactorily.



    Ian


    At this point I'm not looking for support. I downloaded a trial which is Phase Ones chance to impress me. This post was a way for me to give some feedback on why I won't be spending my money with them.

    I have the latest, top spec iMac and run Lightroom, Photoshop, Affinity Photo, NIK Collection and On1 Photo, plus numerous other applications without any issue whatsoever so the problems are most definitely C1P issues, not mine.

    As I said the Raw processing is great, but they need to seriously think about their UI and testing. They are not the cheapest software out there so they really have to shine.
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
    I agree with Ian. I never experienced any of your "bugs", and Capture One works perfectly well on my computer.
    Did you let the previews to be created after having imported your catalog from Lightroom ? Because the first time I tried Capture One, I simply waited for the catalog to be imported, but not for the previews to be created, and I got a lot of "bugs", in such a way that I gave up. The second time, I let the previews to be created (about a full night for my 15000 images), and it worked quite well.


    I have tried with a brand new catalog and imported just a few images, I have tried importing my entire LR catalog. I've tried sessions. My issues have nothing to do with previews.

    I gave up on the catalog idea and decided to use C1P in conjunction with LR and so setup a session as per the C1P video on how to use C1P with LR. It's here where I stopped worrying about the catalog and concentrated on some editing and is here where the editing issues where spotted.
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  • Matt Puttock
    Give it more than two days.


    I agree it is more buggy than LR, but i run top spec mac like you, and have it working, so it's not as simple as C1 being the sole issue.

    I don't understand the catalog issue - I just use it like LR, import to a catalog, create an album. I know it does more with sessions, but to keep it simple I just mimic what I know.

    I tried C1 for a week or two earlier in the year and struggled to adjust. I have now gone back to it, and it is falling in to place much better.

    If I had to make an assessment, C1 feels like it is earlier in it's life than LR, with more growing up to do, edges to round off and some bugs to fix. However, although feeling 'less finished' in some ways, it also clearly feels more ambitious and detailed, and I think will ultimately be the better tool (even aside from the RAW engine which is ace).

    The clone and heal is miserable, and needs a total redesign for C1 10. Noise reduction seems to do next to nothing, where LR is incredible. I could really use some brush presets for hair lifting, eye sharpening, skin smoothing (which I know works differently on C1 to LR) but I may be able to do that yet, still learning.

    I think it's a more detailed 'pro' tool, with a couple of areas that need to catch up - but overall I am finding it more and more usable, the custom workspaces are fantastic compared to LR, and LR seems more and more basic compared to some of the C1 capabilities - particularly the colour editing system.

    I have been with LR since version 1 - it's only to be expoected that a transition will be frustrating and counter-intuitive, and it is. But I really believe that it will be worth it.

    There ARE 5k mac issues, no matter what anyone says - I am hoping that gets addressed fully, although it is usable for now.
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  • Keith Reeder
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:
    At this point I'm not looking for support. I downloaded a trial which is Phase Ones chance to impress me. This post was a way for me to give some feedback on why I won't be spending my money with them..

    Perhaps you'd like to read Forum Rule 10 and then take your self-important whining elsewhere, because - seriously - nobody here cares about your "opinion".

    Not even a little bit.
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  • NNN635158767546269381
    Hello,

    I never had such issues.

    As for the catalog, I have been using Lr for years, and the transition to CaptureOne was ok to me. The catalogs are pretty the same albums, collections, etc..

    Regards
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:
    At this point I'm not looking for support. I downloaded a trial which is Phase Ones chance to impress me. This post was a way for me to give some feedback on why I won't be spending my money with them..

    Perhaps you'd like to read Forum Rule 10 and then take your self-important whining elsewhere, because - seriously - nobody here cares about your "opinion".

    Not even a little bit.


    If Phase One aren't interested in my feedback then so be it. They can ignore my post or delete.
    If I was Phase One, I'd want to know what people think of my software.

    This is a Phase One forum.

    I don't know who you are and neither do I care but I assume that you do not own this forum and are not Phase One Staff.
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  • SFA
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:

    I don't know who you are and neither do I care but I assume that you do not own this forum and are not Phase One Staff.


    This is a forum provided by Phase One on a User to User basis.

    The best way to make you views clrea directly to Phase is, as previously suggested, to create a Support Case.

    It will be recorded, managed, reviewed and you will get a response. Probably discussion and direct support if you are willing to take to part.

    That's how they work things.

    FWIW I had high hopes for Lightroom when it was introduced and bought V1 when it was quite expensive and always being modified.

    I decided that the catalogues did not suit my needs. At the time I also used a much more powerful editing tool and the two did not work well in a combined workflow in my opinion. Capture One came into view and I realised that it offered me a way forward after my original choice become commercially defunct. Plus it was much quicker when working with large numbers of images.

    I still use the old application from time to time - it has more options for process but mostly I don't need them.

    The old one did not offer catalogue functionality. I don't have to use catalogues in Capture One. All is well with the world as far as I am concerned.

    Clearly the technical problems you are having are not common to everyone.

    If you like the processing available them, in my view, it would surely be worth engaging with technical support to see it the reasons for your problems can be quickly identified. The nature of the points you have made suggest that could be far more productive than exchanging comments between users on this forum, much as people here so very often try to help out as far as their own knowledge and experience allows.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Wesley
    OP: You should just start fresh instead of importing LR catalog. It reminds me of doing a fresh OS install vs updating to it when a major version comes out. But in this case it's like trying to migrate Windows files to Mac & vice versa. Doesn't always go smoothly.



    [quote="NN635299624516976000UL" wrote:
    I can second most of what ecoleman said. As I could upgrade I did so. But really unhappy with UI and catalog workflow. It's just a nightmare compared to the LR workflow. Catalog is just clear, simple and logically. No idea why it must be so clumsy in CO. Just staying because of the raw engine but won't/can't give up LR right now.

    Catalog to LR is like Session is to CO.

    Paradigm shift with catalog users after Aperture discontinued and Adobe went mainly subscription.
    Now growing emphasis on CO catalog improvements.
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  • NNN635158767546269381
    You can contact me at my mail.

    nicolas@nicolas-det.eu

    We can check to this issue.
    Take care

    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:


    Does Phone One not test their software? I've been using it for a couple of days sporadically and I've already found so many bugs it's unbelievable.
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="Wesley" wrote:
    OP: You should just start fresh instead of importing LR catalog. It reminds me of doing a fresh OS install vs updating to it when a major version comes out. But in this case it's like trying to migrate Windows files to Mac & vice versa. Doesn't always go smoothly.



    [quote="NN635299624516976000UL" wrote:
    I can second most of what ecoleman said. As I could upgrade I did so. But really unhappy with UI and catalog workflow. It's just a nightmare compared to the LR workflow. Catalog is just clear, simple and logically. No idea why it must be so clumsy in CO. Just staying because of the raw engine but won't/can't give up LR right now.

    Catalog to LR is like Session is to CO.

    Paradigm shift with catalog users after Aperture discontinued and Adobe went mainly subscription.
    Now growing emphasis on CO catalog improvements.


    As I've said before, I've tried from fresh, the importing of a LR catalog was just to see what it brought over. I never expected all my adjustments to come over but I did expect all of my images to be brought over. This is after all a feature of C1P which costs £279 Euro and should therefore work as expected.

    I never went into the trial of C1P expecting it to do exactly what LR does and this is certainly not a post to big up LR, I am after all trialling alternative software so as to move away from LR.

    My main gripe is the lack of attention to detail and yet the cost of the software is 2.5x that of LR.
    I've mentioned a number of bugs that I've come across, some of which do not appear to be an issue with other users, but I didn't dream them up.

    The fact that you can not send an image to an external browser from a smart album is no bug. You get a great big warning telling you it's just not possible. That alone defeats the entire object of having smart albums to sort your photos in order to find and work on them quickly, because if you want to edit one elsewhere you have to stop your workflow, remember which physical folder you stored it in, locate it and then continue editing.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    I can understand that you are not happy if so many functions don't work. BTW, on my computer, with my Capture One version, I can edit any file located in a smart album with any relevant software located in my computer. I never encountered the message you mention (that "it is not possible").
    When I decided to move from Lightroom to Capture One, I tried the software for more than a month (at that time, it was possible to have a free trial for 60 days), and I first gave up because it didn't work like I would have liked it to work. Then, I tried again six months later, did it carefully, waiting for every step to be completed, and after 2 weeks of a second trial, it worked fine (or I could make it work fine !!), and I decided to buy it. And I am very happy with it and won't go back to Lightroom. Unless Capture One disappears or becomes awful when compared with other softwares.
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
    I can understand that you are not happy if so many functions don't work. BTW, on my computer, with my Capture One version, I can edit any file located in a smart album with any relevant software located in my computer. I never encountered the message you mention (that "it is not possible").
    When I decided to move from Lightroom to Capture One, I tried the software for more than a month (at that time, it was possible to have a free trial for 60 days), and I first gave up because it didn't work like I would have liked it to work. Then, I tried again six months later, did it carefully, waiting for every step to be completed, and after 2 weeks of a second trial, it worked fine (or I could make it work fine !!), and I decided to buy it. And I am very happy with it and won't go back to Lightroom. Unless Capture One disappears or becomes awful when compared with other softwares.


    This is not my first trial of C1P. I trialled V8 for a while as well and didn't get on with it at all.
    This time, I tried for forget about LR and spent a lot of time looking at catalogs and working out ways to do things differently because I knew I would loose some LR functionality.

    A big issue appears to be that C1P uses up a ton of memory after edit just a few images making the program unusable.
    After edit 3-4 images C1P consumes just over 20Gb RAM. Images redraws then take seconds. LR manages to plod along using just 3-4Gb

    As for being able to edit from a Smart Album. I jsut tried again. Brand new catalog. Imported 4 new images. Created a Smart Album. Right Click-> Edit In and then get this message.

    I'd be very surprised if this is just me or just my computer.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45385873/C1P-2.jpg
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  • Elliott Coleman
    I've narrowed down the issue with shortcut keys.

    If you make a curves adjustment but then decide to remove a point by dragging it off the curves graph, then short cut keys stop working.
    At this point you can press V, H, Z, G all you like and bugger all will happen.

    If you then click one of the corner points on the graph to activate it, suddenly short cut keys all work again.
    You can to activate one of the points. Simply clicking anything else or moving sliders does not work.

    Is that just me?
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  • Phillip Bond
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:
    I've narrowed down the issue with shortcut keys.

    If you make a curves adjustment but then decide to remove a point by dragging it off the curves graph, then short cut keys stop working.
    At this point you can press V, H, Z, G all you like and bugger all will happen.

    If you then click one of the corner points on the graph to activate it, suddenly short cut keys all work again.
    You can to activate one of the points. Simply clicking anything else or moving sliders does not work.

    Is that just me?


    I cannot say that it is just you but I can say that I am not experiencing this issue.

    Regarding being able to "Edit.." from a Smart Album, perhaps it's because some assumptions need to be made in order to determine what should be done with the resulting, edited file. Without having thought about it in great depth I think it's reasonable to assume it should be saved in the same location as the original referenced file. However then it wouldn't necessarily be able to remain in the Smart Album from which you initiated the edit... (in the case that the Smart Album criteria included things like "file type" = CR2 or QII for example.)

    Just guessing.
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="PhilBond" wrote:
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:
    I've narrowed down the issue with shortcut keys.

    If you make a curves adjustment but then decide to remove a point by dragging it off the curves graph, then short cut keys stop working.
    At this point you can press V, H, Z, G all you like and bugger all will happen.

    If you then click one of the corner points on the graph to activate it, suddenly short cut keys all work again.
    You can to activate one of the points. Simply clicking anything else or moving sliders does not work.

    Is that just me?


    I cannot say that it is just you but I can say that I am not experiencing this issue.

    Regarding being able to "Edit.." from a Smart Album, perhaps it's because some assumptions need to be made in order to determine what should be done with the resulting, edited file. Without having thought about it in great depth I think it's reasonable to assume it should be saved in the same location as the original referenced file. However then it wouldn't necessarily be able to remain in the Smart Album from which you initiated the edit... (in the case that the Smart Album criteria included things like "file type" = CR2 or QII for example.)

    Just guessing.


    I don't see the problem. The catalog is a database so it shouldn't matter where I choose to edit from, the original file location is referenced in the database. I think it safe to assume that the returning image would be saved along side the original image (in the same physical folder) and also added to the smart album, assuming that the returning image matches the criteria for being in that smart album. Certainly if your smart album was based on file type (eg. RAW format) then it would stand to reason that the returning image would not be part of that smart album, but could automatically become part of another smart album which contains all your TIF images.

    This is how LR works and it works well. Again not trying to big up LR but it makes sense from a usability point of view.
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  • Phillip Bond
    I don't disagree with you. I suppose I'm just trying to imagine why things in C1 are done the way they are.
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  • Wesley
    OP: Did you get a response from tech support?
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="Wesley" wrote:
    OP: Did you get a response from tech support?


    I didn't contact tech support. I'm not a free beta tester for Phase One.
    The trial isn't working. For now I'll stick with LR and maybe try C1P again when they get to V10.

    I was hoping that Phase One would read this so as to make improvements for the next version.
    Right now the software just isn't worth the asking price.
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  • John Doe
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:

    I was hoping that Phase One would read this so as to make improvements for the next version.

    This is a user forum. Sometimes they read it, most often they don't. The only way to report a bug is via a bug report.
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  • Elliott Coleman
    [quote="John Doe" wrote:
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:

    I was hoping that Phase One would read this so as to make improvements for the next version.

    This is a user forum. Sometimes they read it, most often they don't. The only way to report a bug is via a bug report.


    Well that's a shame.
    I guess that's why LR is more user friendly. They are very active on their user forums.
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  • Wesley
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:
    [quote="Wesley" wrote:
    OP: Did you get a response from tech support?


    I didn't contact tech support. I'm not a free beta tester for Phase One.
    The trial isn't working. For now I'll stick with LR and maybe try C1P again when they get to V10.

    I was hoping that Phase One would read this so as to make improvements for the next version.
    Right now the software just isn't worth the asking price.

    I understand how you feel. I was that guy that made the "CO9 trial should last till 9.1" thread back in v9.0.1 after all.

    But life was too short and I liked the Nikon raws much better than LR so I just supported it and helped to find bugs when I stumbled upon them.
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  • dredlew
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:
    [quote="John Doe" wrote:
    [quote="ecoleman" wrote:

    I was hoping that Phase One would read this so as to make improvements for the next version.

    This is a user forum. Sometimes they read it, most often they don't. The only way to report a bug is via a bug report.


    Well that's a shame.
    I guess that's why LR is more user friendly. They are very active on their user forums.


    Well, they most certainly have read this thread since it's high traffic. Overall, there is just not much they can do about it, since the software is indeed riddled with tons of bugs. I mean, just look at the number of topics in this forum where a lot of them are related to bugs. And that doesn't include all the issues that are filed directly as support cases.

    Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, there can definitely be blockers. Like you, I've tried earlier versions and they were complete non-starters for me. Coming from Aperture, I was used to something much different. With version 9 of C1 I finally took the plunge after a brief encounter with Lightroom. LR has its own sort of bugs and problems but overall it just works better than C1. If I didn't have 32GB of RAM, I don't think I would be using C1 at all as it's just a memory hog. OpenCL doesn't work either, but I have a fast processor, so I'm not much bothered there. Then there was that nice find from someone that reported that the app constantly writes to disk even if not used, wearing out the disk. The whole keywording misery and just the awful DAM in general... I mean, there's a lot to hate about this app. It's an architectural train wreck that they probably won't be able to fix, ever, unless they start over from scratch BUT! and it's a big BUT... it makes pretty pictures! 😄 That's something, right? 😉

    It all comes down to how you can deal with the issues and adjust your workflow accordingly. And if the better image quality makes that worth it for you. YMMV

    At least the community here, and the occasional staff that pops in, tries to help each other out in navigating through the sea of bugs. (yes, picture that visually)
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  • paintbox
    The best part about C1 is that one can just leverage its strengths (raw editing) and minimize problems of it weakness (cataloging) by simply working in Sessions.

    I found by doing all of my editing in Sessions and then transferring my work to the catalog, life is so much easier.

    After I transfer my edited files to the catalog, I then just sync my LR catalog for searching and sometimes editing.

    There is no reason to believe that either software will solve all problems, so why not just use both?

    The demise of Aperture has put a lot of pressure on Phase One and they have responded well considering their size.
    One thing I can say is that the quality of their raw conversions has only gotten better, whereas LR seem to be more focused on the ease of use.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="Jimmy D Uptain" wrote:

    One thing I can say is that the quality of their raw conversions has only gotten better, whereas LR seem to be more focused on the ease of use.


    Yep. I have used LR for years (actually from its start), and switched to C1 when I realized that the C1 RAW development was far better, and that Adobe chose to catch more people by making LR more "user-friendly" rather than improving its performances. Two different business models.
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  • John Doe
    [quote="dredlew" wrote:
    Then there was that nice find from someone that reported that the app constantly writes to disk even if not used, wearing out the disk.

    Is it just me, or was this bug fixed with the latest 9.2 update? Could others check on their system, please? Thx.
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  • adrianchapman
    [quote="Jimmy D Uptain" wrote:


    After I transfer my edited files to the catalog, I then just sync my LR catalog for searching and sometimes editing.

    There is no reason to believe that either software will solve all problems, so why not just use both?


    Jimmy
    I am in the dilemma of currently using LR 6, trialling C1 9 and previously using C1 8. I am finding it hard to decide which way to go due to the respective strengths and weaknesses of LR and C1. Can you expand on your use LR and C1 and what benefits you get from using both?
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  • paintbox
    [quote="adrianchapman" wrote:
    [quote="Jimmy D Uptain" wrote:


    After I transfer my edited files to the catalog, I then just sync my LR catalog for searching and sometimes editing.

    There is no reason to believe that either software will solve all problems, so why not just use both?


    Jimmy
    I am in the dilemma of currently using LR 6, trialling C1 9 and previously using C1 8. I am finding it hard to decide which way to go due to the respective strengths and weaknesses of LR and C1. Can you expand on your use LR and C1 and what benefits you get from using both?


    First of all, I use the Adobe subscription plan. I mean you get full blown Photoshop and Lightroom for $10.00 a month. To me that's a no brainer. Also, it gives me the option of completely bowing out once C1 gets everything together on the catalog side.
    If one were to outright buy LR, it may not make as much sense.
    Anyway, I have found C1 editing to be way more powerful, especially with colors. And as I learn new stuff, which is always, I find myself going to LR less and less.
    LR's main strength is it's catalog. I mean if you correctly keyword, finding anything is a breeze.
    C1 doesn't do well with infrared and I like IR. LR/Photoshop handles my infrared nicely. So there's that.
    If you print, LR has many more tools, like package printing and good soft-proofing. C1 cannot hold a candle to LR in this regard.
    There have been cases where LR just seemed to handle certain files better than C1 so it's always good to keep another tool handy.
    Photoshop is just nice to have. Recently I started printing my own postcards and Photoshop was there to save the day.
    There are things you cannot do without Photoshop or a product like photoshop. Affinity Photo is another option for this type work.
    So how would one go about using both. Well C1 and LR both use the same raw files from the same source. There's no need to duplicate the files you have in storage. You will have to keep two separate catalogs but unless you have some serious space issues, that won't pose a problem.
    By the way I have four separate catalogs (C1,LR,Media Pro, and Photo Supreme) using the same raw files so I assure you, its not a problem.

    The only issue is LR seeing the edits made in C1, it wont. What you can do is after editing the raw file in C1, just make a small jpeg copy and import it into LR. In C1 you can easily tell it to add "C1" at the end of the file name.
    That way when you import the jpeg into LR, it will be right there beside the original raw file. The edits will be shown as they are "baked in" the jpeg.
    If you need a larger version of the file for printing, just go back to C1 and export a larger version, say a 16 bit tiff or whatever. Then import the new tiff, print and delete it.
    All that being said, I use LR very rarely these days. The printing module is great until it isn't.
    I have an Epson 7900 printer and LR just loved to spit out about 3' of paper then just cut it off. I finally gave up and purchased a 3rd party printing software. Life is much easier now.
    As far as soft-proofing goes, LR is simply the best thing I have found.
    All in all, If I had to pick one, it would be C1. The catalog issues are aggravating but I have found workarounds.
    Creating lots of collections is one way to speed things up. Also, I removed the keywords and filters tool. That seemed to speed things up as well.
    If C1 would allow us to rename the variants, well that would help with the soft-proofing.
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