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IPTC Metadata not passing through everything...

Michael Boden
I just tried a test, and I find that there is a problem with the IPTC metadata not being passed through Capture One v5 processing. It appears that the only metadata that is passed through are the keywords. Here is my test, which was done in Windows Vista 64bit:

1. Create a new session in Capture One v5.
2. Quit application.
3. Copy RAW CR2 file to "Capture" folder via Finder.
4. Open PhotoMechanic and browse to this "Capture" folder.
5. Assign IPTC metadata as follows within PhotoMechanic:
http://www.mikeboden.com/misc/PhotoMechanic.GIF
6. Quite PhotoMechanic
7. Open CaptureOne v5 and look at metadata for this image. You'll see that it recognizes all data that was input:
http://www.mikeboden.com/misc/CaptureOnev5.GIF
8. I then process the image and open it in PhotoShop. When I look at the File Info, you'll see that the only metadata that is kept is the keywords. NOTHING ELSE IS TRANSFERRED THROUGH.
http://www.mikeboden.com/misc/Photoshop.GIF
9. And the same holds true when looking at the metadata in Bridge:
http://www.mikeboden.com/misc/Bridge.GIF

So...this is broken. (But you already knew that.) How is it that Capture One v5 can see the embedded metadata in the RAW CR2 file but only pass through the keywords? Totally f'd up in my opinion.

And by the way, I did the exact same test, but input the metadata within Bridge instead of PhotoMechanic, and the exact same thing happens. ONLY THE KEYWORDS ARE PASSED THROUGH....NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!! So what this says is that it doesn't matter whether the metadata is embedded within the CR2 or if it's in a XMP sidecar file. Either way, it sees all of the metadata that was input, but only passes through the keywords.
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Comments

15 comments

Date Votes
  • Michael Boden
    FYI...I created a support case for this and here is the reply I received:

    Dear Michael,
    thank you very much for doing such a comprehensive test. Our developers are already looking into the case so we could change the application's behaviour in future versions.

    Right now the best solution is to add the metadata after processing. We are aware of the restrictions of this and will try to find a solution as soon as we can.

    Thank you very much for your understanding and for contacting us.
    With kind regards,

    Jakub
    Phase One Technical Support
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  • Martin312
    I too am working through a support case. Support are baffled as it apparently works for them but not for me even on the files I uploaded. I suspect that it is that the Trial version does not fully implement the Pro capability (non-Pro does not know about metadata). Have been chasing this since v5 released. Problem I went througfh all this hassle when v4 was released and it is only fairly recently that has been usable; not right just usable.

    My process is:

    Caption/Keyword etc the RAW file in PhotoMechanic, embedding the data not using XMP.
    Open in C1 Pro
    Process
    Check IPTC data in multiple software. Only keywords come through.

    It works in 4.8.3 as long as I make No Changes to the IPTC data after opening the folder in C1. It does not pick up the changes, the load metadata in v5 should be the answer but it simply does not process IPTC data, but it shows properly in the metadata pane.

    As things stand version5 is completely useless for me as I need to be able to caption files on a small laptop in the RAW form whilst away from base. Now I know the limits in version 4 I can work round them. But leaving captioning until after conversion is just no good for me - I regard it as ESSENTIAL that such data stays with the image from RAW through any copying, backup or conversion process.

    Has anyone had this process work in either fully activated version or in the Trial version of 5?
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    [quote="Martin3" wrote:
    ...
    Has anyone had this process work in either fully activated version or in the Trial version of 5?

    Martin, what type of raws your you putting to your PhotoMechanic - Capture One laundry system? (I will try to reproduce your issue)
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  • Martin312
    They are Canon 1Ds3 full resolution - around 20Mbyte. I t5hink I may also have the same problem with Canon G10 CR2 RAW files.

    It is weird because the metadata panel shows the data I expect but it goes no further except (as others have noted) keywords.

    I'll perhaps give a G10 file another try as well as an orginal 1Ds file.

    Thanks Paul, look forward to your results.
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  • Martin312
    Just tested both Canon G10 and original 1Ds RAW files and they exhibit the same behaviour as previously reported on both TIF and JPG output.

    The metadata panel shows the IPTC caption, Location, Copyright details as expected but only keywords and data taken are populated. (possibly also Urgency - I don't normally use it).
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    Martin, I will look into this hopefully later this week with the type of raw files you mentioned (and perhaps add a few others). I had this kind of testing planned already for some time so this might help. I know Phase One is doing some rework in the IPTC area for an upcoming maintenance release (I reported a bug about it) which allows me to test the difference as well when it surfaces.
    Now I need some time...
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  • Michael Boden
    Thanks Paul.

    Hopefully, this will be fixed relatively soon. For my workflow, I actually don't even want Capture One to touch the metadata. But I certainly would like to have it pass everything through, whether it's embedded within the Raw file and/or from a XMP sidecar file.
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  • Martin312
    Thanks Paul

    Michael, like you I neither intend to process any metadata in C1, nor use it for asset management - there are far better tools. Like you I just wanted it passed through; I am not even (at this stage at least) bothered about sidecars/XMP.

    Interestingly support have now gone very quiet - I was getting 1-2 emails a day. Nothing for a couple of days so I suspect they are now working on it (I hope). There was mention of an upcoming 5.0.1 release - hopefully that will be soon and v5 will work as advertised; at least as far as IPTC is concerned.

    Having looked at pretty well all the RAW converters out there including Lightroom 3 over the last couple of weeks I am still convinced that C1 Pro is the leader for quality and speed of work on large batches of images.

    I am sticking with 4.8.3 and making sure I have done all my captioning etc before I even look at them in C1 Pro. At least then it picks up the IPTC data, it is changes it has difficulty with.
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  • Martin312
    Not a squeak out of support for over a week now...

    But my support case is still open, they have not closed it. I hope that means they are working on it and we will hear something soon.

    Support did suggest, early on, that IPTC data would be addressed in 5.0.1 shortly (at least for GPS data - priorities?). As another thread suggests; why this glaring problem got through testing especially when we had the same problem with v4 it was first released raises worrying questions.

    Paul, any progress on your own testing? Although it would appear to be fruitless exercise as there seems to be sufficient evidence that it does not work.
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  • Martin312
    First the good news:

    Version 5.0.1 now appears to work like 4.8.3.

    Load metadata picks up the IPTC data and passes it through - the first time.

    But the Bad News like Version 4.8.3 it does not seem to pick up changes. I have not done a full test but initial signs are not good.

    However if the IPTC data is modified in the RAW file after C1 has created its cache it does not appear to pick up the changes. Even though C1 pro shows the change after a Load metadata it still does not copy those changes, it uses the original IPTC. I have no intention of testing whether changes made in C1 Pro as I consider IPTC editing in C1 unusable. There are better tools and in any case I want to apply the changes to the master RAW record.

    I now have three days to evaluate v5.0.1 before my Trial will run out.

    I am still not at all happy as the IPTC process is still really NOT FULLY FUNCTIONAL.

    Made another test; modification made in C1 seem to pass through (who is going to edit a multi line caption through the C1 slit, it is not even a letter box). But the big catch is that change then takes precedence over load metadata for that field so no external changes can be picked up (at least for that field).

    We need a way of switching OFF the C1 pro metadata "editor" (it is nothing of the sort) and forcing it to use the data in the RAW file. Who actually uses it?
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  • Martin312
    After recent correspondence with support it sounds as though PhaseOne might really be taking metadata seriously and putting effort behind getting it working effectively.

    For once I am hopeful that will be fully sorted sooner rather later.

    It might not be this Christmas but it might not be too long... 😉
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  • Wes Duenkel
    [quote="Martin3" wrote:
    After recent correspondence with support it sounds as though PhaseOne might really be taking metadata seriously and putting effort behind getting it working effectively.


    Now it appears the pendulum has swung too far the other way with 5.0.1. Not only are the kewords "passing through" but all of the image adjustments as well. If the image is rotated 90-degrees counter-clockwise (as in a "portrait" or "vertical" image), C1 includes this information to the output JPG as well. So when opened in Photoshop, the image is rotated AGAIN, so now my "portrait" oriented photos are "laying on their side," or rotated 90-degrees TOO FAR. Same for saturation, etc that was previously added in Adobe Camera Raw. It is applied AGAIN when opening the JPG in Photoshop.
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  • Drew Altdo
    Wes,
    Do you have a support case regarding the additional information (rotation, saturation) being passed through? We'd like to take a closer look into this but the problem is obtaining the identical workflow to try and replicate the issue. If you have a support case concerning this, please make sure you don't skimp on the details. If you don't have one please create one and we'll take a look.
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  • Wes Duenkel
    [quote="Drew " wrote:
    Wes,
    Do you have a support case regarding the additional information (rotation, saturation) being passed through?

    Yes, I have opened a support case...however I may be not explaining my problem well enough in the case, so I would appreciate it if you could also review it. It is support Case ID 67500.

    If you (or anyone else) who would try to replicate this problem, here is how:

    1) Select a RAW image that was shot "vertically," or in the "portrait" orientation.
    2) Using Adobe Bridge, create an XMP sidecar file (tag the image with a keyword, increase the saturation, crop, etc.) Note that the XMP is created when making ANY adustment or tagging the RAW file.
    3) Process a JPG of the image in Capture One 5.0.1.
    4) Open the JPG with Adobe Photoshop. Note that when opening the file, the Adobe Camera Raw window first appears, applying the image adjustments (that were meant for the RAW file) AND the image is rotated 90-degrees counter-clockwise (in the "positive" direction).

    (I used images from my Canon 1DII, 20D, and G9...doesn't matter...all did the same thing)

    In my view, this is what needs to happen: exclude (do NOT preserve) image adjustment data from the XMP file to the output file (i.e., JPG). Specifically: Preserve IPTC data, crop, spot removal, and keywords. Exclude saturation, exposure, white balance, camera calibration, sharpening, etc.

    If that is not clear, please don't hesitate to ask for further info.
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  • Drew Altdo
    Wes,
    I'll take a look at it in the morning. Thanks for the update and creating a case.
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