Colour Shifting TIFF's
Hi,
I'm having a few problems with capture one pro 8. When I've opened an .IIQ file into photoshop, through capture one's 'open with' option, then do some work in photoshop, save the image, look at the preview in capture one to notice that the yellows have shifted massively. I didn't notice it to start with, but it became more obvious with different shots. I've only found it to be a problem with yellows.
I've attached links to screen shots of the files that I've noticed it with. Its only a problem with yellow, blues and oranges are fine.
Am I being a complete dunce? please help
I'm having a few problems with capture one pro 8. When I've opened an .IIQ file into photoshop, through capture one's 'open with' option, then do some work in photoshop, save the image, look at the preview in capture one to notice that the yellows have shifted massively. I didn't notice it to start with, but it became more obvious with different shots. I've only found it to be a problem with yellows.
I've attached links to screen shots of the files that I've noticed it with. Its only a problem with yellow, blues and oranges are fine.
Am I being a complete dunce? please help
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[quote="edtritton" wrote:
Hi,
I'm having a few problems with capture one pro 8. When I've opened an .IIQ file into photoshop, through capture one's 'open with' option, then do some work in photoshop, save the image, look at the preview in capture one to notice that the yellows have shifted massively. I didn't notice it to start with, but it became more obvious with different shots. I've only found it to be a problem with yellows.
I've attached links to screen shots of the files that I've noticed it with. Its only a problem with yellow, blues and oranges are fine.
Am I being a complete dunce? please help
It's never that simple.
What is the program in your screen shot showing the window with the bright yellow (i've checked the first link)? Is it using colour profiles?
C1 is, which one is it using? Check the setting in View - Proof profile. What does it say? Selected recipe? If so, what is the colour profile in the selected recipe? What is the colour profile if that setting states something else?
I believe these questions need to be answered before we can look whether it is really C1 you're having a problem with.0 -
Hi,
Thanks for the reply,
The program is preview, I'm not sure if its using a profile, but the point is that that colour is more consistent with what it looks like before the tiff is shown in C1, and what it looks like on photoshop.
In regards to colour profiles, my proof profile is set to the selected recipe, which is set to adobe 1998.
The screen shot I've attached this time is of the tiff next to the processed raw file, that the tiff was derived from, both in capture one. The raw file has the colour that I want, the tiff had the same colour when I edited in photoshop, then back in capture one it takes on a desaturated look. I've not changed anything in photoshop, just taken out a couple of dust specks.0 -
[quote="edtritton" wrote:
Hi,
Thanks for the reply,
The program is preview, I'm not sure if its using a profile, but the point is that that colour is more consistent with what it looks like before the tiff is shown in C1, and what it looks like on photoshop.
In regards to colour profiles, my proof profile is set to the selected recipe, which is set to adobe 1998.
The screen shot I've attached this time is of the tiff next to the processed raw file, that the tiff was derived from, both in capture one. The raw file has the colour that I want, the tiff had the same colour when I edited in photoshop, then back in capture one it takes on a desaturated look. I've not changed anything in photoshop, just taken out a couple of dust specks.
I'll confess that i'm not a colour expert, nor am i a CO expert. I'm hoping for others to chime in (like some P1 professionals).
Anyway, i'd raise a support case for this. I'm pretty sure the guys at P1 will figure this out quickly.
Sorry i can't help any further.0 -
At first glance, the issue might be with the Preview program. For color comparison, try to open in Photoshop instead. 0 -
Hi Paul,
Definitely not a preview issue, from my messing about over the last few days its something amiss with the transitions from CO --> Photoshop and then Photoshop --> CO.
I noticed as soon as I opened from CO into photoshop there was a colour shift on the capture one view, before I'd even done anything to the Tiff that CO had created. Once opened in photoshop the tiff has correct colours, but when back into CO it shifts. The screen shot I've attached is the edited raw file next to a Tiff that CO created to work on in photoshop. All that was done to the Tiff was a bit of clone and heal on edges and dust, no layers created or colour changed by myself.
Are there some settings in capture one and photoshop that I'm missing?
Cheers,
Ed0 -
For clarity, I am comparing the Capture One Preview of the raw image with the Photoshop view of the processed image. That is my reference. I do not compare the raw and the processed image of that raw in CO8. 0 -
Paul,
Why would you not?
If CO1 properly color manages tiff and jpeg files, what is there to fear? Fact is that CO1 does nót properly color manage tiff and jpeg images, which effectively renders CO1 useless as an image viewer.
Chris0 -
hi,
c1 has some preview issues but in this case i´m rather sure it is related to the PS color management setup. to help you solve this problem let us know your PS CM settings and also the c1 export color options0 -
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
Paul,
Why would you not?
If CO1 properly color manages tiff and jpeg files, what is there to fear? Fact is that CO1 does nót properly color manage tiff and jpeg images, which effectively renders CO1 useless as an image viewer.
Chris
Chris,
Not fear but fact as you mentioned.0 -
An experiment:
Step 1:
Use PS to create a new image, sRGB, 300 by 300 px
Fill with color R=223, G=15, B=32
Save as 'small.tif'
Step 2:
Use PS to resize to 3000 by 3000 px
Save as 'big.tif'
Step 3:
Use CO to create a new session. Import both images.
Add a color readout to both images.
Surprise!
small.tif reads R=223, G=15, B=32, just as set in PS
big.tif reads R=222, G=39, B=34, just like... what?
Both claim to be profile 'Tiff File Neutral'. The difference is that the small one is too small to be edited.
Should they not have equal color? And why 'Tiff File Neutral'? Shouldn't they be in the profile they were created in?
Affinity Photo reads the correct R= 223, G=15, B=32, and Gimp (after reduction to 8 bit) too.
But it shows that there is a significant shift in color when opening a .tif in CO.
CO uses .tif to round-trip? The story continues:
"Edit With' in CO creates a new 'big 1.tif' from 'big.tif' that CO itself reads as R=222, G=41, B=34. Different from all above.
I'm puzzled!
Best regards,
Hans0 -
Hello
I agree with Horseoncowboy, its a Photoshop and Capture One color management setup issue0 -
[quote="Paul_Steunebrink" wrote:
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
Paul,
Why would you not?
If CO1 properly color manages tiff and jpeg files, what is there to fear? Fact is that CO1 does nót properly color manage tiff and jpeg images, which effectively renders CO1 useless as an image viewer.
Chris
Chris,
Not fear but fact as you mentioned.
Ok Paul, if only I'd get the same acknowledgement from CO1 support ☹️
I've abandoned my attempts to use the catalogueing capabilities of CO1 to make it into my allround image editor/manager/viewer, and have gone back to just using CO1 for raw editing.
For managing and viewing I have returned to adobe bridge, that has all the capabilities that CO1 has in this department, and that also properly color manages jpeg and tiff images, no matter what color space you choose to develop them into.
Now, do you have any clue as to why a program of the level and stature such as CO1 simply fails to get it's color management of non-raw images right?
The round trip via photoshop (edit with) was a nice addition, but what good is it when the returned tiff or jpeg file is not shown properly in color spaces other than srgb (and even in srgb I have my doubts)? Is the target audience of CO1 users not a group of people likely to have a wide gamut display to be able to show images in wider color spaces than srgb?
Take for instance a nature image of sun flowers: vividly yellow in raw on my wide gamut display, but go "edit with" to save as a tiff or jpeg in a seperate album in the CO1 catalogue in a large color space, and all color vividness is bled out of it, anything beyond srgb is clipped when viewing the image in CO1.
Chris0 -
Chris,
Your last sentence prompted a thought.
It occurs to me C1 does not really have a "viewing" mode . If you allow editing of jpg and tiff files they will be displayed as editable files and so will have whatever settings may be set for "display" applied, or so I would imagine.
Yellow is always a challenging colour for comparison so quite small differences can appear to make large changes overall. Even simple outputs that happen to reduce size and increase compression of the resulting file can be very challenging in that respect.
The other aspect I stumbled across today that I had not really given any thought to previously is what the hardware will do as part of its task when displaying a "standard" media file format. For example there are settings embedded in the chipset of Intel processors for "tuning" screen display according to the type of file being displayed.
One might assume that these are being ignored in favour of whatever goes on within an editing application. But are they? After all they would, sort of and theoretically, represent what anyone else would see viewing that file through a straight operating system supported viewer. At least in theory.
More to the point once you have allowed the image to leave your sphere of control and go to print or the even wilder territory of electronic media you have relinquished precise control over what the observer sees. You can't even control basics like the angle from which the viewer makes their observation!
The Mac world, especially Mac to Mac, may offer greater consistency than other options. Or it may not. I have no idea. I'm not at all sure there is much difference these days.
Sadly, I concluded, one really needs to prep things for the lowest common denominator applicable to the target audience and hope that one's results cover enough of the areas of variability to look OK. Either that or not worry too much about fine differences. (The "yellow issue" is a fine difference but one that is naturally highly visible.)
Of course your mileage may vary and your needs may be much more clearly defined and manageable.
Just my opinion of course.
Grant0 -
Hi Grant,
I went through the hoops with this and believe me: CO1 clips the jpeg images that are in larger color spaces than srgb. Either that, or it falsely depends on the OS to handle their color management.
When CO1 trailed with support for the Pentax K3 and their first implementation of support for this camera was a flaw regarding the color profile, I got a copy of DxO optics. As you may or may not know, DxO's in the box .icc profiles for cameras are restricted to adobe rub. If you want to take advantage of your cameras large color space, you have the option to provide your own .icc profile. I had a short hopeless discussion with an otherwise very kind DxO employee, who insisted that larger colorspaces than adobe rgb are useless and even potentially destructive.
What you run into a lot, is the clinging to restricting small standard colorspaces like srgb, simply because color management is often totally misunderstood. But your digital high end camera doesn't care for dogmas like srgb, it simply has the ability to capture highly vivid colors. It's usually very easy to see where photo viewers clip images to a restrictive color space, assuming that the image múst be in that or such 'standard' color space (read: srgb), instead of properly color managing the image. This is most common with jpeg images.
Imagine an image of a sunflower field: all colors have a certain global saturation, but one or some colors are particularly vivid, like the bright yellow in the sunlight. When this image is viewed as a jpeg in a large color space that can accommodate for the highly vivid colors, and you see the expected global saturation, but the vivid yellow suddenly looks dull and flat and brownish, than you know that the colors are clipped to a smaller gamut than your wide gamut display can show. This is not an OS fault, it is the program that you are viewing the images with, that does not use the right color management to show all of the available colors on your monitor, but eÃther assumes the image must be converted to srgb because it is a jpeg and must be used or shown on hardware that has a srgb color gamut, ór simply leaves it to the OS that consequently makes the same assumptions. That last part is not clear to me, and I could not get CO1 support to clarify the issue. They insisted that the profile embedded in the jpeg file is used, but that was not the issue, the issue is the conversion into srgb before translating to the monitor. Imagine srgb as a gateway or bottleneck, restricting a free display of the image with all colors available translated to the maximum gamut of the monitor.
Funnily, a program like iPhoto did it right, so does adobe bridge. But Aperture, DxO, CO1 all mess up with jpegs and tiffs.
Chris0 -
Even .tif images that have never been in a wider color space than sRGB are shown wrong in CO. See my example about the red shift above.
I did that experiment because I noticed a color shift in the red on a round-trip image. A signal-red tint from CO into PS, fine. The same color after saving back into CO: a shift towards sweet pepper powder. Still right in all others.
But if CO cannot edit the image because of the small size, CO shows the colors correctly. Why? I am really puzzled. And I really hope I can solve it. If it is my own fault, I will fix my workflow, no problem.
Regards,
Hans0 -
@ edtritton
Could you save a small version of your image from PS, too small for CO to edit it, and then look at it in CO?
I wonder if you see the same effect as I do with my image: correct colors in CO.
Regards,
Hans0
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