Color Editor RGB readings anomaly. / Windows 10
I am using C1 9.0 with Windows 10.
This problem existed with C1 8 and Windows 8 and 10, but it's now worse. But, I'm raising it here first before opening (yet another!) a support case to see if others have the same issue.
The problem is simply as follows:
1. Open the Advanced tab in the Color Editor tool.
2. Pick a color correction, using the tool's eyedropper, from an area of solid color in the image. (an area of solid color makes it easier to compare the readings)
3. Note that in the Color Tool dialog, the before/after RGB readings are the same - which is what they should be. Great.
4. Now, assuming that the color picker tool hasn't been moved from the selection point in the image, note the RGB reading at the top of the screen above the image. Is it the same as the RGB/RGB readings in the Color Tool?
For me it isn't. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the discrepancy is now worse than it was with Windows 8/C1 8.
The RGB readings at the top of the screen are way below those in the Color Tool dialog. Typically, I might get 169/173/188 on the screen, and 248/248, 248/248, 247/247 in the dialog. (This is a reading I just took from an image in order to post this observation.) That's almost an 80 point difference. This is nuts!
Which readings are correct? Which readings do I edit to? Or do I have something wrong in my setup?
Editing Gretag Color Checkers is critical to my work.
Help!
Thanks.
D
This problem existed with C1 8 and Windows 8 and 10, but it's now worse. But, I'm raising it here first before opening (yet another!) a support case to see if others have the same issue.
The problem is simply as follows:
1. Open the Advanced tab in the Color Editor tool.
2. Pick a color correction, using the tool's eyedropper, from an area of solid color in the image. (an area of solid color makes it easier to compare the readings)
3. Note that in the Color Tool dialog, the before/after RGB readings are the same - which is what they should be. Great.
4. Now, assuming that the color picker tool hasn't been moved from the selection point in the image, note the RGB reading at the top of the screen above the image. Is it the same as the RGB/RGB readings in the Color Tool?
For me it isn't. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the discrepancy is now worse than it was with Windows 8/C1 8.
The RGB readings at the top of the screen are way below those in the Color Tool dialog. Typically, I might get 169/173/188 on the screen, and 248/248, 248/248, 247/247 in the dialog. (This is a reading I just took from an image in order to post this observation.) That's almost an 80 point difference. This is nuts!
Which readings are correct? Which readings do I edit to? Or do I have something wrong in my setup?
Editing Gretag Color Checkers is critical to my work.
Help!
Thanks.
D
0
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C1 v9, PC/Win8.1x64 - everything works fine within probably math/rounding errors inside C1 code during whatever color (or coordinates within the same space) conversions color editor does
color readout matches viewer toolbar RGB numbers and they both match within ~1 for each R /G/B "pick color correction" selection
but a small bug is - when for example I change proof profile the changes are not immediately reflected on screen in color editor... I need to do some actions in Color Editor to force the refresh.0 -
I've written to Support.
I would kill for a +/- 1 point differential, instead of the 20+ point I'm getting. Terrible.
D.0 -
The official answer to my question is as follows:
"This is because the value you see at the top (of the screen) is the color (RGB reading) after it has been converted to your output space, whereas the value in Colur editor is based only in the input profile you are editing." (my parenthesis)
D.0 -
[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
The official answer to my question is as follows:
"This is because the value you see at the top (of the screen) is the color (RGB reading) after it has been converted to your output space, whereas the value in Colur editor is based only in the input profile you are editing." (my parenthesis)
D.
the official answer has the problem, I will repost myself from LuLa with some mods (as I was addressing 2 people and w/o their text here I need to change mine) :
why the change of the proof space changes the values in ColorEditor then ? if you /you = David Grover, who quoted @ LuLa/ say "only" that implies that no other color profiles shall affect the numbers in color editor, but it is not so... I change the proof from Prophoto to sRGB and I see that the same color selected in ColorEditor will get new RGB numbers... can actual developers (a-la Esben for example) explain the flow of data for color editor ? is it [raw rgb] -> [color transform using input profile] only to display RGB numbers in color editor ? then there shall be no difference when I change the proof profile... if it is [raw rgb] -> [color transform using input profile] -> [color transfor using proof profile] to display RGB numbers in color editor then it is not "only".
+
C1 Color Editor can save adjusted input profiles as new input profiles it is certainly works between raw rgb and color transform using input profile - but what color editor displays as numbers is a different matter - see the point above about changing proof profile affecting numbers in color editor... where and when it works modifying something (with AtoB0 tage from input profile with LUT, that converts raw rgb to a proper colorimetric color space, PCS = cieLAB or cieXYZ) is not linked as to what it displays to you in C1 user interface (it seems)
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so ???0 -
When I select ProPhoto RGB in View/Proof Profile, I would simply like everything (including the Color Tool) to switch to PP RGB.
It seems this isn't possible.
Why not, I wonder?
Is C1 unique in this? Doesn't LR allow this?
Thanks.
D.0 -
[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
When I select ProPhoto RGB in View/Proof Profile, I would simply like everything (including the Color Tool) to switch to PP RGB.
It seems this isn't possible.
Why not, I wonder?
Is C1 unique in this? Doesn't LR allow this?
Thanks.
D.
just ask them again in your support case how come that changing of the proof profile will change the displayed (in C1 color editor) RGB numbers...0 -
Here is the text of my last correspondence with Support............
Me: "So, let me rephrase the question........ If I want to edit *AND* save in ProPhoto RGB, what must I do? What preference settings must I apply to the software and where? And will I then see the same readings both at the top and in the Colour Tool dialog?"
Support: "Hi,
Editing in and saveing in Profot RGB does not make sense... becuase your camera is not aligned to Profoto RGB which is a working space, not a camera input space. If you want to see the same numbers you can set your output profile to "Embed Camera profile."
I assume what you are really trying to do is hit certain numbers in the final image. In that case place a color readout dropper (can be found in the list of eyedroppper tools in the curser toolbar) and place a color readout on the patch you want to edit. then adjust the color editor for that color but pay attention to the final numbers displayed on readout, not the color editor tool.
Best regards,
Team Phase One Support"
If I make Base Characteristics/ICC Profile the same as View/Proof Profile (e.g. Adobe RGB (1998) in both cases), then an RGB reading taken with the colour picker in the Colour Tool/Advanced tab will be identical in both the Colour Tool dialog AND at the top of the screen.
So, is it OK to change the Base Characteristics/ICC Profile to the same as View/Proof Profile (in order to make all readings the same) or must the ICC Profile be set to the make/model of the camera that the files came from?
Thanks.
D.0 -
[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
So, is it OK to change the Base Characteristics/ICC Profile to the same as View/Proof Profile (in order to make all readings the same) or must the ICC Profile be set to the make/model of the camera that the files came from?
input profile = your camera profile... color editor will follow both changes in the input profile and in the proof profile... output profile does not change anything, unless your proof profile is set to be = output profile...
if you change either your input profile or your proof profile you will see how RGB values in color editor will follow the change just like color readouts (following the change of the input profile is natural because color editor operate on the LUT in it) and following the proof profile is how the things coded to work...
BUT note that once you start changing the raw conversion parameters (exposure, curves, etc) __after__ selecting a color in color editor then the RGB values there will __not__ follow your changes, but the color readouts will follow...0 -
I want to "see" ProPhoto RGB numbers when I'm editing.
Changing to this via View/Proof Profile to ProPhoto, gives me these RGB numbers at the top of the screen, but NOT in the Colour Tool dialog. Those RGB numbers REMAIN those of my ICC Profile (i.e. my camera). This I have established with Phaseone Support.
So, while I can edit to ProPhoto RGB numbers via the readouts at the top of the screen, once I change the Proof Profile to ANYTHING other than my camera, the RGB readouts in the Colour Tool dialog become useless for editing purposes.
I can use the CT's sliders to make changes to the image, but I MUST take readings ONLY from the top of the screen.
If I change the Proof Profile, I would like the Colour Tool to reflect this change in its RGB readouts also. Support have told me they will look into this.
D.0 -
[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
I want to "see" ProPhoto RGB numbers when I'm editing.
Changing to this via View/Proof Profile to ProPhoto, gives me these RGB numbers at the top of the screen, but NOT in the Colour Tool dialog.
let me give you an example
PC/Win8.1x64. C1 v9.x - whatever was the last update recently
I open a A7R2 raw from Imaging-Resource = A7R2hVFAI000100.ARW (which has CC24 + CCSG) - so that you can download and repeat it
I use input profile = OEM C1 profile = STANDARD and linear curve
I use no adjustments for exposure, contrast, etc = all zeroed in C1 UI
I select output profile (not that it matters) = embed camera profile
I select proof profile = ProPhoto
now when I select a color for C1 Color Editor it matches "RGB numbers at the top of the screen", with good ~1 R/G/B precision (on all 24 patches in CC24)... why not exactly ? because C1 Color Editor operates with LUT nodes and C1 OEM profile typically has 33x33x33 nodes - so when you select a color in your image, C1 Color Editor will pick the node closest to it, but it naturally is not 100% exact match in all cases, so you see small variations + rounding to 8 bit RGB integer....
now how do you manage to get such a big discrepancy ? please download a raw from Imaging-Resource as they a publickly available and show specifically how do you get it ?
PS: C1 has some bugs in Color Editor code still - for example when your image is zoomed out to "Fit" you can sometimes (often) get some unreal color numbers in Color Editor when you try to pick up the color (for example from 6 greyscale patches in CC24 = color editor picks 255/255/255, yes no matter when you click there - but that does not happen with colored patches, unless for example you try to click in the are near the border of the patch, where it close to black dividers... go figure), then I simply zoom in and get normal color numbers in the same spot... I am too lazy to file a case - and P1 people are totally uninterested to get their code fixed... I wrote about C1 color editor not refreshing the numbers right away when you switch proof profile... so bugs aplenty, interest to fix = zero.
[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
Those RGB numbers REMAIN those of my ICC Profile (i.e. my camera). This I have established with Phaseone Support.
.
they are not - those will follow proof profile... just change from ProPhoto to sRGB you will see how Color Editor will change the RGB numbers (with the note about the bug above, you might need to do some action in Color Editor to see them refreshed actually)... so those numbers are NOT those of your input profile (which stays the same - but you change the proof profile)... is it so difficult to do a simple proper experiment and see with your own eyes, instead of relying in "broken phone" communications with P1 support ?[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
So, while I can edit to ProPhoto RGB numbers via the readouts at the top of the screen, once I change the Proof Profile to ANYTHING other than my camera, the RGB readouts in the Colour Tool dialog become useless for editing purposes.
what kind of editing you are talking about ? adjusting HSL/V in Color Editor or changing exposure, contract, curve, etc ?[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
I can use the CT's sliders to make changes to the image, but I MUST take readings ONLY from the top of the screen.
CT's sliders = Color Editor sliders ? if you only operate with C1 color editor sliders then there will be a match (again see the note above why not precise) between color editor RGB numbers and RGB readouts placed on the image... I can see this right now as I am typing...[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
If I change the Proof Profile, I would like the Colour Tool to reflect this change in its RGB readouts also.
.
.
it does - you just need to do something in it to force the refresh - for example switch to a different color there (in Color Editor) or move any slider there slightly and return that slider back in the original position... this is a bug (not refreshing RGB numbers in Color Editor on the screen when you change proof profile) and P1 does not fix it.[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
Support have told me they will look into this.
good luck0 -
You're right, I think.
It may have to do with yesterday's update.
The numbers are very close now. But, they were nuts up to a couple of days ago.
FWIW, I'm getting superb colour anyway, and I wouldn't go back to LR now.
Thanks for the feedback.
D.0 -
[quote="Dinarius" wrote:
It may have to do with yesterday's update.
but bugs like not refreshing RGB numbers visible on screen in color editor immediately upon switching the proof profile, etc are still with us - so I doubt there was any fix... not that I an going or to roll it back to start checking between 2 minor releases0
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