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Slow Zoom In, Pan operations (1-2 secs of blurriness)

Glogg
Hi folks,

This been bothering me for a while, and recently some of the guys I've recommended Capture One to in the past, came up to me and complained about the same thing.

Basically: When you Zoom In (via double-click) a photo or Zoom Out back to the normal view, the initial result is noticeably of lower quality/blurred. It gets corrected after 1 sec or so. Sometimes faster, sometimes slower. This visual flickering adds to the feeling that Capture One is doing things slow.

Another similar task, just panning the zoomed image, and when the new part of the photo enters the screen, it is also blurred (appears as a low quality image) and then gets corrected after the same 1 sec or so. Furthermore, when you move back to the part of the photo that was originally on the screen, it is shown blurred as well and the same part would need to be re-rendered/fixed after 1-2 sec! Makes it pretty inconvenient to pan around the zoomed photos, which is essential when doing quick check after import, culling.

This is *not* related to the RAW engine. I could remove the RAW file altogether and Capture One could work with the photo in "offline" mode, only based on the saved preview. But it is *still* experiencing exactly the same performance problems when zooming in/out or panning the zoomed photo!

Please note that Lightroom does not have this problem. It zooms smoothly and with no artifacts/blurring/flickering. And dragging/panning the zoomed photo is smooth and quick as well.

I am on Windows 10, with good nVidia GPU 970, and 32gb of RAM. Other guys reported similar set up, Windows 7 and Windows 10 x64 with nVidia GPUs.

Is there *anything* to fix/remove/eliminate that 1-sec delay of blurriness during zooming/panning?
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Comments

23 comments

Date Votes
  • NN635474536475599539UL
    I would also be interested in a solution to this.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Right... You can see from other recent threads that I'm trying to not go crazy, while theorising as to how and why this and another couple things happen.

    Long story short, that is normal behaviour, specially for the windows version. (you can see in the webinars)

    From my experience and what has been reported in the forum, it seems to be exacerbated by 4K screens; the smaller the window, the faster everything renders.

    For me it averages a couple seconds to render a 1:1 "chunk" from a 50MB fuji raw on a 2560x1440 screen with or without OpenCL (acceptable in my case considering the 8 year old CPU). It may change in speed, but as far as I can tell, the mosaic (tiled) behaviour doesn't change with hardware. It does even show up on MacOS (new macbook pros) but is nearly imperceptible (I assume the rendering procedures are similar on both platforms).

    Here are a few more findings:

    1:1 Previews are rendered from the original image directly. (explained in a webinar)

    Generated previews are not baked files. They are small proxies that render on the CPU, virtually EVERY TIME you select a picture, sometimes taking more than 2 seconds. When OpenCL is on (and working), many are cached on the GPU until it runs out of memory. (my rough assessment)

    C1 is very eager to let go of the CPU, letting it idle even between loading the current image and pre-fetching the following one; having to negotiate a CPU high power state TWICE every time you select a picture that hasn't been cached. Then it seems to struggle in folders with more than a dozen images. Sometimes it caches them all; sometimes has to reload most and repeat the multiple CPU events. Like wut?! 🤓 (my rough assessment)

    Windows doesn't seem to like that, and sometimes resulted in severe choking for my old CPU when simply browsing through images, until I selected the windows "high power plan".

    Maybe if you put on top of that how much influence the window size has, then we get varied and moderate waiting times for rendering relatively small chunks of data.

    Therefore, yes, I expect and hope a few more improvements are to be made to C1.

    Feel free to bring more of your findings to the table and correct me if so.

    Cheers

    PS: Has any of you noticed that the detail slider is stuck at 100 on version 10.1? Do an identical export with 0 Luminance NR and 0 Detail on version 10.0.2 and 10.1.x specially with ISO 400+
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="Glogg" wrote:

    Another similar task, just panning the zoomed image, and when the new part of the photo enters the screen, it is also blurred (appears as a low quality image) and then gets corrected after the same 1 sec or so. Furthermore, when you move back to the part of the photo that was originally on the screen, it is shown blurred as well and the same part would need to be re-rendered/fixed after 1-2 sec! Makes it pretty inconvenient to pan around the zoomed photos, which is essential when doing quick check after import, culling.

    I dno, maybe Adobe patented loading the whole image in memory at once... 😂
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  • Glogg
    gusferlizi, from my experience (on Windows), Capture One keeps in memory exactly TWO images, the current one and the previous one, and at some point in time it discards the previous one and (optimistically) caches the next one. Btw, I don't understand why only two images. I have 32 gigs of memory and 4 gigs on video memory, and most of it is just empty. Why not take resources when they are readily available? I'd love to see at least 5-10 images cached, and ideally, as much as memory is available 😊

    Another irony is that when you are in 100% zoom mode, switching between the previous and the current images (both rendered in 100% zoom) is near-instantaneous, I could do that many, many times per second. So, the technology is there! 😊 Even in Capture One already, since it can render and switch between those two cached images very fast.

    BUT, just staying on the SAME image and zooming it and out takes 1-2 seconds. The technology is not used in this case for some reason.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="Glogg" wrote:
    gusferlizi, from my experience (on Windows), Capture One keeps in memory exactly TWO images, the current one and the previous one, and at some point in time it discards the previous one and (optimistically) caches the next one. Btw, I don't understand why only two images. I have 32 gigs of memory and 4 gigs on video memory, and most of it is just empty. Why not take resources when they are readily available? I'd love to see at least 5-10 images cached, and ideally, as much as memory is available 😊


    Yes! That is the most consistent behaviour. Sometimes I win the lottery and get a folder of 20-30 images to all load instantaneously! Like 10 min ago. Then I switch between another folder and back to the previous, and it won't cache more than 2 again!

    [quote="Glogg" wrote:

    Another irony is that when you are in 100% zoom mode, switching between the previous and the current images (both rendered in 100% zoom) is near-instantaneous, I could do that many, many times per second. So, the technology is there! 😊 Even in Capture One already, since it can render and switch between those two cached images very fast.

    BUT, just staying on the SAME image and zooming it and out takes 1-2 seconds. The technology is not used in this case for some reason.


    Very good point.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    I'm testing 10.0.2 vs 10.1.2 again and the latter is bugged throughout. It is loading the previews quite fast now, however, to mess with my sanity. Still, only 2 consistently cached at a time.

    Longer to render 1:1 than 10.0.2. Although again, highly inconsistent.

    OpenCL previews take longer to generate than CPU based.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Here is the video I submitted to support, showing the image 'detail' artifacts side by side.
    http://supportcasefiles.phaseone.com/18 ... -31-43.mov
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  • Leif Oberg
    A tip for capture one how they could solve this.
    The reason why capture one is so fast to zoom in is because they only generate what you are actually looking at. This is clever since its much faster than doing what Lightroom which is generate the full image. However you can do the best of two worlds:

    1) Do what Capture One does currently which is generate what fills the screen first.
    2) After that is done generate what is outside the screen in the background. This means that if you will pan a few seconds later the full image will be generated already
    3) Keep in memory previous zoom states. For example if you zoom in and then you zoom out the image will be blurry for a while. In Lightroom they keep both of the images in RAM after they have been generated. I often zoom in and out a few times.

    Tip: IF you have more CPU cores on your computer then all of this will be much faster. As a reference I have 28 cores on my computer and zooming in takes about 1 seconds on a 50 megapixel image. On a more normal 4 core machine this takes about 4 seconds to generate. This is thanks to the Capture One team being very good in using the available CPU cores (unlike Lightroom which mostly only uses 1-2 cores no matter how many you have).

    Cheers
    /Andreas
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Good point, Andreas. A little more strategic caching/rendering would definitely improve the 1:1 preview.

    Up to 4 seconds is fairly standard for me on 10.0.2 without OpenCL (7-8 year old AMD triple-core). I would however, expect that operation to scale better with significantly improved multi-threading in modern platforms.

    What really drives me nuts is the untraceable inconsistency for browsing. Sometimes every (not zoomed) preview in a folder will be rendered and cached to display instantly (with or without OpenCL, 10.0.2 or 10.1.2). Most of the time it takes 1-2 seconds to load (seems to be higher on ISO800+).
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  • Thomas Tveit Rosenlund
    Well this is really disapointing. I am contemplating buying Capture One 10 to move away from Lightroom and Adobe altogether. So I downloaded the trial software. The first things I noticed was that browsing from image to image was not as instantaneous as I expected. The program seems to render the previews every time (even though I have made the program to render previews for that catalog, and it did complete that mission in advance). The the caching of previews are mediocre at best.

    The second thing I did notice was the lagging in 100% view of the images. What? This is even worse than Lightroom on my D800 files. The fact that the program does not render 1:1 previews not even when you are looking at it sent me on my quest for another Lightroom alternative.

    I am also concerned about what happens when I upgrade my system to 4K how is that going to affect the lag, does not seem like a modern platform that I want to invest money in.

    My current system is a overclocked to 4.4GHz i7 2600K running watercooling, all working files, catalogs, OS and software are stored on SSD's,16 GB of RAM and a AMD HD 6770 HD Graphic card. So while not current should offer good performance.
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  • Thomas Tveit Rosenlund
    And whats up with the jagged thumbnail images? If I make them bigger, the thumbnails don't show any more detail, all thumbnails seems to stay at the same resoulution and just zooms in making the pixels bigger. It all turns into a Jagged mess on my 27 inch 2560x1440 monitor... đŸ¤Ŧ
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  • Robert Whetton
    [quote="NNN636373612671585585" wrote:

    Tip: IF you have more CPU cores on your computer then all of this will be much faster. As a reference I have 28 cores on my computer and zooming in takes about 1 seconds on a 50 megapixel image. On a more normal 4 core machine this takes about 4 seconds to generate. This is thanks to the Capture One team being very good in using the available CPU cores (unlike Lightroom which mostly only uses 1-2 cores no matter how many you have).

    Cheers
    /Andreas

    well seeing as zooming doesn't use 100% of any core. makes no difference really..
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  • SFA
    [quote="NNN634221267024107395" wrote:
    And whats up with the jagged thumbnail images? If I make them bigger, the thumbnails don't show any more detail, all thumbnails seems to stay at the same resoulution and just zooms in making the pixels bigger. It all turns into a Jagged mess on my 27 inch 2560x1440 monitor... đŸ¤Ŧ


    They are thumbnails displayed in the browser.

    Sounds like you need to be looking at the Previews displayed in the Viewer window.

    Or maybe use the Loupe tool if you are just trying to do a quick cull and need a way to see 100% detail of a specific area.


    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="NNN634221267024107395" wrote:

    "I am also concerned about what happens when I upgrade my system to 4K how is that going to affect the lag"

    I don't think you want to know mate.

    The 'positive' side I found is that I shoot less waste images and sometimes find myself culling in camera like a tourist.
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  • SFA
    [quote="gusferlizi" wrote:
    [quote="NNN634221267024107395" wrote:

    "I am also concerned about what happens when I upgrade my system to 4K how is that going to affect the lag"

    I don't think you want to know mate.

    The 'positive' side I found is that I shoot less waste images and sometimes find myself culling in camera like a tourist.


    Hehe.

    I suppose a 4k screen is not entirely necessary for basic culling?
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  • Thomas Tveit Rosenlund
    [quote="gusferlizi" wrote:

    I don't think you want to know mate.

    The 'positive' side I found is that I shoot less waste images and sometimes find myself culling in camera like a tourist.


    😂

    Well, we are all tourists really.

    Thomas
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="NNN634221267024107395" wrote:
    And whats up with the jagged thumbnail images? If I make them bigger, the thumbnails don't show any more detail, all thumbnails seems to stay at the same resoulution and just zooms in making the pixels bigger. It all turns into a Jagged mess on my 27 inch 2560x1440 monitor... đŸ¤Ŧ

    Alright, yes. I now fully concur and see no valid reason why the thumbnail resolution can't match the largest thumbnail setting.

    Potential developer oversight? cough cough 😄
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  • Robert Whetton
    [quote="NNN634221267024107395" wrote:
    And whats up with the jagged thumbnail images? If I make them bigger, the thumbnails don't show any more detail, all thumbnails seems to stay at the same resoulution and just zooms in making the pixels bigger. It all turns into a Jagged mess on my 27 inch 2560x1440 monitor... đŸ¤Ŧ

    Making them bigger kinda defeats the term "thumbnail" ?
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  • SFA
    [quote="Bobtographer" wrote:
    [quote="NNN634221267024107395" wrote:
    And whats up with the jagged thumbnail images? If I make them bigger, the thumbnails don't show any more detail, all thumbnails seems to stay at the same resoulution and just zooms in making the pixels bigger. It all turns into a Jagged mess on my 27 inch 2560x1440 monitor... đŸ¤Ŧ

    Making them bigger kinda defeats the term "thumbnail" ?


    Hmm.

    I had the same thought.

    What sort of zoom ratio would we be looking at I wonder?

    Personally I think I would lean towards the "Set" Functionality in the viewer although there may be a perception of slower performance. However "screen speed" may not be the main parameter of interest for every task.


    Grant
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="Bobtographer" wrote:
    [quote="NNN634221267024107395" wrote:
    And whats up with the jagged thumbnail images? If I make them bigger, the thumbnails don't show any more detail, all thumbnails seems to stay at the same resoulution and just zooms in making the pixels bigger. It all turns into a Jagged mess on my 27 inch 2560x1440 monitor... đŸ¤Ŧ

    Making them bigger kinda defeats the term "thumbnail" ?

    No!

    The thumbnail should display accurately to the largest view option offered.

    Microsoft got this right even on windows vista!
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  • Glogg
    [quote="Glogg" wrote:
    Hi folks,

    This been bothering me for a while, and recently some of the guys I've recommended Capture One to in the past, came up to me and complained about the same thing.

    Basically: When you Zoom In (via double-click) a photo or Zoom Out back to the normal view, the initial result is noticeably of lower quality/blurred. It gets corrected after 1 sec or so. Sometimes faster, sometimes slower. This visual flickering adds to the feeling that Capture One is doing things slow.

    Another similar task, just panning the zoomed image, and when the new part of the photo enters the screen, it is also blurred (appears as a low quality image) and then gets corrected after the same 1 sec or so. Furthermore, when you move back to the part of the photo that was originally on the screen, it is shown blurred as well and the same part would need to be re-rendered/fixed after 1-2 sec! Makes it pretty inconvenient to pan around the zoomed photos, which is essential when doing quick check after import, culling.

    This is *not* related to the RAW engine. I could remove the RAW file altogether and Capture One could work with the photo in "offline" mode, only based on the saved preview. But it is *still* experiencing exactly the same performance problems when zooming in/out or panning the zoomed photo!

    Please note that Lightroom does not have this problem. It zooms smoothly and with no artifacts/blurring/flickering. And dragging/panning the zoomed photo is smooth and quick as well.

    I am on Windows 10, with good nVidia GPU 970, and 32gb of RAM. Other guys reported similar set up, Windows 7 and Windows 10 x64 with nVidia GPUs.

    Is there *anything* to fix/remove/eliminate that 1-sec delay of blurriness during zooming/panning?


    Status update for the Capture One 11: no change, the zoom-in and panning are as slow as ever, nothing has changed on Windows. ☚ī¸
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  • NNN637164933955033944
    Capture ONE 20 (PRO, Fujifilm)

    2020 and this is still going on. Really? It does not seem to help lowering the preview size either (even though it can get a sharper preview). Have you managed to get aroundt this or found some sort of solution?

    :/
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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter
    [quote="NNN637164933955033944" wrote:
    Capture ONE 20 (PRO, Fujifilm)

    2020 and this is still going on. Really? It does not seem to help lowering the preview size either (even though it can get a sharper preview). Have you managed to get aroundt this or found some sort of solution?

    :/

    If you're using version 20, you'd be better asking for answers in the version 20 forum for Mac or Windows as the case may be.

    Ian
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