What Does "Lens Supported" Mean for M43 Lenses?
I have several Panasonic M43 cameras and a good collection of lenses. I note that some of my favorite lenses, like the Panasonic 12-32, 14-45, 15mmF/17 and 35-100/F2.8 are not listed in the CaptureOne list of supported lenses, never the less images taken with these lenses seem to work in COP7 and COP8.
Before I invest too many hours in editing images in COP, I would like to understand what this lens support actually means.
If a lens IS NOT in the list of supported lenses, does it mean that the distortion and CA corrections embedded in the Panasonic RAW file are applied OR not applied?
If a lens IS in the list of supported lenses, does it mean that the distortion and CA corrections embedded in the Panasonic RAW file are applied OR is it that CaptureOne Algorithms for lens corrections are applied?
Before I invest too many hours in editing images in COP, I would like to understand what this lens support actually means.
If a lens IS NOT in the list of supported lenses, does it mean that the distortion and CA corrections embedded in the Panasonic RAW file are applied OR not applied?
If a lens IS in the list of supported lenses, does it mean that the distortion and CA corrections embedded in the Panasonic RAW file are applied OR is it that CaptureOne Algorithms for lens corrections are applied?
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Eric,
You would probably get a more knowledgeable response about what is intended to happen via a Support Case.
There may be a user who knows. A Phase staffer may chip in here on the forum. But realistically your best bet for a full answer would be to ask the official Support team.
In my opinion.
HTH.
Grant0 -
Thanks Grant. I have opened a support case, and received an answer, but I am still confused (perhaps even more so). Once I sort it out with support, perhaps I will report the answer here. And perhaps some other COP user with Micro four thirds lenses will still post what they know or have observed. 0 -
as usual for m43 camera raw files manufacturer writes correction data there... so if you see in C1 a "manufacturer profile" in a drop down list - that will be their corrections (from raw files), sometimes P1 thinks (or tries or have time to indulge in or whatever) that they can do better - so you will see their profile too in addition to a "manufacturer profile" ... if you see only "generic" then no corrections neither from manufacturer nor from P1 are available 0 -
[quote="deejjjaaaa" wrote:
as usual for m43 camera raw files manufacturer writes correction data there... so if you see in C1 a "manufacturer profile" in a drop down list - that will be their corrections (from raw files), sometimes P1 thinks (or tries or have time to indulge in or whatever) that they can do better - so you will see their profile too in addition to a "manufacturer profile" ... if you see only "generic" then no corrections neither from manufacturer nor from P1 are available
Thank you for a very perceptive and interesting answer. This raises some interesting questions about the answer I just received from Phase One support, below, which indicates that the geometric correction data from the M43 RAW file is not applied if the lens is not supported. I just accessed the lens profile for an image with the "unsupported" Panasonic 14-45 lens, and the manufacturers profile is available, and now I am wondering what is meant when that is selected. I will have to ask them again.[quote="Jesper" wrote:
Hi - the RAW files from the camera is recognized yes. This means ICC profiles and meta data is seen and adapted into Capture One. If the lens was also recognized - i.e supported - lens correction would also be applied - in this case the camera is recognized but the lens not. My description hopefully clear out how the software "sees" the file and eventual lens support.0 -
I just made some experiments with the "unsupported" Panasonic 14-45 lens at 14mm, where it should need the most geometric correction.
It appears that with "Manufacturer's Profile" set, geometric distortion correction is applied.
I conclude that the geometric corrections from M43 RAW files are applied, even for lenses not on the supported list.
Being on the supported list must mean that Phase One has developed an even better correction than the manufacturers profile.
I am now much less concerned than initially, I'm typically quite happy with the manufacturers profile.0 -
I tried some picture from my olympus E-M5 and E-M5II and it looks like I've no "manufacturer profile" for these cameras.
My (some ?) panasonic GH2 pictures have the "manufacturer profile".
Someone can confirm that these camera doesn't support embedded correction in RAW ?
Don't understand why because m43 file format must have an unified data correction, even for different manufacturer.0 -
I have an E-M1 and a GX7. Also the Panny 12-35 and the Oly 9-18, which I've used on both cameras. I imported 4 images, each combination of camera and lens, into COP8. All four images were taken at close to minimum focal length where the effect of geometric distortion is the greatest
Both Cameras are on the supported cameras list, both lenses are on the supported lenses list. The CaptureOnePro 8 behavior is not the same for Panasonic and Olympus cameras with the same lens, the distortion correction is likely different.
Observations of the COP8 user interface:- **With the E-M1 and both lenses, the name of the lens shows correctly in the metadata tab, under Vendor Specific: Lens
**With the E-M1 and both lenses, in the lens tab, a specific profile for that lens is automatically selected. There is no Manufacturer profile.
**With the GX7 and both lenses, the name of the lens does NOT show correctly in the metadata tab, under Vendor Specific: Lens, all that shows is the used focal length and aperture.
**With the GX7 and both lenses, in the lens tab, "Manufacturer's Profile" is automatically selected. You can also select a specific profile for the lens, but it is hard to do because the lens is not identified in the Metadata table, and if you select recommended profiles, all the Panasonic lens profiles are shown.
Observation of the GX7 image distortion & correction:- **With Generic Profile the correction is pretty bad (I suspect no correction at all)
**With Manufacturer Profile, the geometric correction is OK, and matches the correction I see in Aperture
**With the specific lens profile, the geometric correction is even stronger than the Manufacturer Profile
Summary (my interpretation/extrapolation)
With RAW images from Olympus cameras, the lens model is identified correctly, and for most (if not all) lenses PhaseOne has its own measured profile that is used to apply geometric correction. The default is the Phase One profile, and you can NOT choose the geometric correction in the RAW File. The geometric correction from PhaseOne may be better than that in the RAW File.
With RAW images from Panasonic cameras, the lens model name is NOT identified, and for only a few lenses lenses PhaseOne has its own measured profile that can be used to apply geometric correction, but you cannot identify which lens was used. The default is the geometric correction in the RAW File.
PS
I expect behavior with the GH2 is likely the same as I have observed for the GX7 (but a confirmation from someone would be nice)
I expect behavior with the EM5 and EM5 mkII is likely the same as I have observed for the EM1 (but a confirmation from someone would be nice)0 -
Thank you very much for this comprehensive response Eric (and for the one on dpreview 😉, I'll post only to this forum from now).
I didn't have time to do more tests but I think your observations are exactly the same as me.
I'm very disappointed that the "Manufacturer Profile" is not available for Olympus camera with Panasonic lens.
Maybe I'm wrong but correction data in RAW must be the same as Panasonic, so why this difference (Lightroom support this, regardless manufacturer of body or lens).
"Generic Profile" are, as you said, pretty useless.
In addition, I don't get how the COP8 lens profile works:
My Olympus 12-40:2.8 and 9-18 have both a COP8 profile, but the result, especially for the 12-40 are very different from the same OOC jpeg, have to look closer which one give the best result.
And I don't understand the default value of "Distortion" slider:
With my 9-18, picture at 18 has the slider at 0%, but picture at 11 has the slider at 100%.
What it means ? Is 0% mean no correction and 100% full correction ?
Why is it not always at 100% ?
I'm puzzled, hope someone from PhaseOne can give some explanations.0 -
[quote="dwahli" wrote:
Thank you very much for this comprehensive response Eric (and for the one on dpreview 😉, I'll post only to this forum from now).
I didn't have time to do more tests but I think your observations are exactly the same as me.
I'm very disappointed that the "Manufacturer Profile" is not available for Olympus camera with Panasonic lens.
Maybe I'm wrong but correction data in RAW must be the same as Panasonic, so why this difference (Lightroom support this, regardless manufacturer of body or lens).
"Generic Profile" are, as you said, pretty useless.
In addition, I don't get how the COP8 lens profile works:
My Olympus 12-40:2.8 and 9-18 have both a COP8 profile, but the result, especially for the 12-40 are very different from the same OOC jpeg, have to look closer which one give the best result.
And I don't understand the default value of "Distortion" slider:
With my 9-18, picture at 18 has the slider at 0%, but picture at 11 has the slider at 100%.
What it means ? Is 0% mean no correction and 100% full correction ?
Why is it not always at 100% ?
I'm puzzled, hope someone from PhaseOne can give some explanations.
The way to obtain an official C1 answer is to create a Support Case - the team are very helpful.
I suspect that whilst lenses in M43 may be interchangeable the lens data may not (always) be recognised and reported by the camera if bodies and lenses have different manufacturers. But that's a guess.
The jpeg comparison is valid but it may be that the Phase team are slightly more conservative about what to exclude from the periphery of the processed area. I have a couple of Canon compacts and in general Canon jpgs leave a little more of the compressed areas at the top and bottom of a (Landscape) image and the stretched areas at the sides. Whether these areas are useful to have available (the crop can be expanded to include them if required) is a value judgement. If the squeezed and stretched areas look OK I guess they can be included but in general I suspect that Phase probably err on the side of offering retained image quality rather than are much nominal image area as theoretically possible, maybe M43 is different - I don't know.
The Canons typically show 100% adjustment (i.e. 100% of the available adjustment for the focal length, not an absolute measure for the whole lens range) at the wider ends and no adjustment at the longer ends (or in my cameras from about the half way zoom point of the lens).
This seems reasonable since I would assume that the lenses are designed with optical accuracy at the longer, slower end and use software to "fix" the errors that will result at the wider end where the optical physics limitations will likely be impossible to correct accurately at any reasonable cost - if at all.
There are a number of threads on the subject from the past which may be of interest. I would suggest a browse through them using the Search facility if you have the time.
HTH.
Grant0 -
[quote="dwahli" wrote:
I tried some picture from my olympus E-M5 and E-M5II and it looks like I've no "manufacturer profile" for these cameras.
My (some ?) panasonic GH2 pictures have the "manufacturer profile".
Someone can confirm that these camera doesn't support embedded correction in RAW ?
Don't understand why because m43 file format must have an unified data correction, even for different manufacturer.
it is very easy to check... when in doubt make a shot in raw, convert to DNG using the current version of Adobe DNG converter/ACR/LR , see what is the content of DNG tags like WarpRectilinear ( or WarpFisheye )... one plane = geometry correction, three planes (R, G, B) = both geometry and LaCA corrections ... there is also FixVignetteRadial tag...
if such tags present that means m43 camera (and note that Olympus and Panasonic are different companies with different approaches and then there are differences between models, at least there were between E-M5 and E-M1) wrote optics correction information for a raw converter to use
PS: nothing like "m43 file format" exists - what exists is the mount specification (mechanical and electronic protocol allowing the body-lens interaction), that's it... even the sensor size can be different behind that mount... also TTL protocol for system flashes apparently belongs to Olympus (surely shared or licensed to Panasonic) and not a part of m43 itself0 -
I'm actually not so worried about the lens support - I have been living with the "Manufacturer Profile" M43 correction for 10 years now (but not in COP, in Aperture) and not been bothered by it, and if Phase One provides a better profile, well that is a bonus.
More important to me is that in the "Lens" field in Panasonic RAWs, the name of the lens is not indicated, only the selected focal length and aperture - that interferes with many things, from image selection to image correction and analysis. For example, if the "Lens" field says is "15mm F5.6" I don't know if the image is from my 15mm F1.7 prime (really sharp) the 12-35 F2.8 zoom (very sharp) the 14-45 (pretty sharp) the 12-32 zoom (OK sharp) or the 14-42 power zoom (lets not discuss).
Since PhaseOne, as everyone else, has a fixed R&D budget, I would much rather this was fixed rather than building new PhaseOne profiles for lenses we already have correction data for. And new profiles are hard to apply if you are guessing what lens was used.
I have updated my support request accordingly.0 -
Hi everyone.
I won't be worried about Panasonic files.
Distorsion correction is included in the metadata tags, and is correctly understood by Capture One.
So if you choose "manufacturer profile", you apply the "official" correction (that you can to tune afterwards).
By "official" correction I mean the one that is available on the body (EVF, LCD) and on the JPEG files.
For Olympus RAW files, however, this distorsion correction is not read by Capture One, so you rely on the existence of a lens profile made by Capture One.
Sometimes, this profile doesn't exist, it's the case for example of my Panasonic 12-32 lens.
Lightroom and Rawtherapee are able to apply the manufacturer correction to the Olympus files, C1 isn't.
I don't blame PhaseOne for supporting a limited number of lenses for their own correction, however I think they should be able to read the info in the Olympus RAW file like they do on the Panasonic RAW files.
The manufacturer correction is enough for me (I even prefer it to C1 profile when both are available) and it should be easy to read and to apply (for a given lens, it's the exact same correction in an Olympus or a Panasonic file, it's just not written the same way in the files)
I think I'm going to open a support request about this.0 -
[quote="SojiOkita" wrote:
For Olympus RAW files, however, this distorsion correction is not read by Capture One
...
Lightroom and Rawtherapee are able to apply the manufacturer correction to the Olympus files, C1 isn't.
I don't blame PhaseOne for supporting a limited number of lenses for their own correction, however I think they should be able to read the info in the Olympus RAW file like they do on the Panasonic RAW files.
I see the same problem - a Panasonic 7-14 (which does distort quite a bit) on an Olympus E-PL7. There is no manufacturer distortion correction (let alone a custom lens profile).
I do not see, though, that RawTherapee (RT) does apply manufacturer correction. It would appear as if RT applies feature extraction on both the ORF raw data and the ORF embedded JPEG - and reverse-engineers a (simple?) distortion profile based on a single parameter value (https://github.com/Beep6581/RawTherapee ... distort.cc)
Funny enough, the following steps do yield a a manufacturer distortion applied:
- use Adobe DNG Converter to create a DNG (even without embedded ORF)
- open DNG in Capture One
Suddenly Capture One applies distortion correction - most likely because Adoble DNG Converter added some OpcodeList3 to the DNG containing distortion information (see http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/ ... .4.0.0.pdf -> Opcode List Processing). And that distortion information is not coming from Adobe, because there is no lens profile in "C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw\LensProfiles\1.0"
This begs the question: Why does Capture One not support reading m43 / mft distortion information from Olympus cameras (ORF format). I'd hardly call that "supported camera", to be honest.0
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