Issue with image preview
Hi all,
I'm an amateur photographer and this is my first submission to the forum.
First off I would like to say that CO is an impressive piece of image manipulation software, and that I'm very pleased with what it can help me get out of my images - sometimes turning an almost unusable image to something quite spectacular.
That being said, I'm having an issue which seems unacceptable for a software of this caliber, that caters to both professionals and hobbyists alike.
When looking at some images at a 'Fit' zoom level, and up to a 50% (inclusive) zoom level, the image looks drastically different than at zoom levels 67% and beyond.
My scenario:
I have a heavily modified raw (actually .arw) image file shot on an a6000 at ISO 100.
When looking at the raw file at a 'Fit' zoom level, the image looks one way, and when looking at it at 100% magnification the image looks another way. By another way, I do not mean to say I see more noise, or detail (which might be obvious), but rather that the colors at the 'Fit' zoom level are more vivid, and the image seems to have more 'pop' to it, while at 100% the colors seem to turn 'whitish', as would happen if you over sharpened the image.
At first, this kind of behavior doesn't seem like a bug - after all, the same image viewed at different zoom levels will look different, albeit very unlikely in my opinion, to show the differences I'm seeing.
In any case however, this behavior is not consistent across file formats.
I exported the raw file to a 16bit tiff file, and this is the result I got:
When looking at the files at 100% magnification they look virtually identical (both showing lots of noise, and 'whitish' areas due to over sharpening).
When looking at them at a 'Fit' zoom level however, while the raw file looks different as I have mentioned above, the tiff file looks the way you would expect it to look (showing 'whitish' or over sharpened areas).
In addition, comparing the two images at a 'Fit' zoom level, the raw file looks sharper than its tiff counterpart.
I repeated this experiment exporting to an 8bit tiff, 8bit jpeg, and 16bit jpeg(2000) with the exact same results.
The previewer 'hides' the fact that the file is over sharpened in the raw file at a 'Fit' zoom level, but shows it on all other file formats.
So to conclude, the problem I'm having is that the preview window gives a false impression of how the final image would look when working with Sony raw files, a difference that is not inherent to resizing (as the other file formats show), but rather a problem specific to Sony raw files (and maybe raw files in general - see below).
Has anyone any kind of insight regarding this issue?
Screenshots illustrating the issue at hand:
ARW - Fit:
TIFF16 - Fit:
ARW - 100% crop at center:
TIFF16 - 100% crop at center:
ARW - 100% crop at corner:
TIFF16 - 100% crop at corner:
The issue I am posting here appears to be present in CO since at least version 7, and across both Mac and Win systems.
Please see this for more details: .
The name of that thread might be misleading, but if you read all the posts you will see that it's either actually the same issue (see for instance the post by 'Maraker' from 'Tue Jun 09, 2015'), or an issue very closely related to this one.
I posted this here as a separate thread and not as a continuation of the one above because:
a. This seems to me to be an issue in version 10 big enough to warrant its own thread.
b. Some of the forum members suggested (in the thread I linked above), that if the issue at hand is relevant to a specific version, it should appear in the appropriate version section.
I will link to this post in the older one as well for continuation.
Cheers.
P.S.
This exact same issue was also present in CP9 that I was using until this version came out.
I'm an amateur photographer and this is my first submission to the forum.
First off I would like to say that CO is an impressive piece of image manipulation software, and that I'm very pleased with what it can help me get out of my images - sometimes turning an almost unusable image to something quite spectacular.
That being said, I'm having an issue which seems unacceptable for a software of this caliber, that caters to both professionals and hobbyists alike.
When looking at some images at a 'Fit' zoom level, and up to a 50% (inclusive) zoom level, the image looks drastically different than at zoom levels 67% and beyond.
My scenario:
I have a heavily modified raw (actually .arw) image file shot on an a6000 at ISO 100.
When looking at the raw file at a 'Fit' zoom level, the image looks one way, and when looking at it at 100% magnification the image looks another way. By another way, I do not mean to say I see more noise, or detail (which might be obvious), but rather that the colors at the 'Fit' zoom level are more vivid, and the image seems to have more 'pop' to it, while at 100% the colors seem to turn 'whitish', as would happen if you over sharpened the image.
At first, this kind of behavior doesn't seem like a bug - after all, the same image viewed at different zoom levels will look different, albeit very unlikely in my opinion, to show the differences I'm seeing.
In any case however, this behavior is not consistent across file formats.
I exported the raw file to a 16bit tiff file, and this is the result I got:
When looking at the files at 100% magnification they look virtually identical (both showing lots of noise, and 'whitish' areas due to over sharpening).
When looking at them at a 'Fit' zoom level however, while the raw file looks different as I have mentioned above, the tiff file looks the way you would expect it to look (showing 'whitish' or over sharpened areas).
In addition, comparing the two images at a 'Fit' zoom level, the raw file looks sharper than its tiff counterpart.
I repeated this experiment exporting to an 8bit tiff, 8bit jpeg, and 16bit jpeg(2000) with the exact same results.
The previewer 'hides' the fact that the file is over sharpened in the raw file at a 'Fit' zoom level, but shows it on all other file formats.
So to conclude, the problem I'm having is that the preview window gives a false impression of how the final image would look when working with Sony raw files, a difference that is not inherent to resizing (as the other file formats show), but rather a problem specific to Sony raw files (and maybe raw files in general - see below).
Has anyone any kind of insight regarding this issue?
Screenshots illustrating the issue at hand:
ARW - Fit:
TIFF16 - Fit:
ARW - 100% crop at center:
TIFF16 - 100% crop at center:
ARW - 100% crop at corner:
TIFF16 - 100% crop at corner:
The issue I am posting here appears to be present in CO since at least version 7, and across both Mac and Win systems.
Please see this for more details: .
The name of that thread might be misleading, but if you read all the posts you will see that it's either actually the same issue (see for instance the post by 'Maraker' from 'Tue Jun 09, 2015'), or an issue very closely related to this one.
I posted this here as a separate thread and not as a continuation of the one above because:
a. This seems to me to be an issue in version 10 big enough to warrant its own thread.
b. Some of the forum members suggested (in the thread I linked above), that if the issue at hand is relevant to a specific version, it should appear in the appropriate version section.
I will link to this post in the older one as well for continuation.
Cheers.
P.S.
This exact same issue was also present in CP9 that I was using until this version came out.
0
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The issue is not the software, the issue is oversharpening. This may (have) be(en) necessary, more on that later.
The smaller version of the file will look different as it has been scaled/compressed down and extra/unnecessary information gets thrown out. How else would you fit the same amount of pixels/information, from like a large 4000x3000px into a small 1000x750px image? Physically impossible, so something has to go and it will be sharpness (that includes noise) first. The scale algorithm has to get rid of information while trying to maintain the overall appearance. The end result will be that it is similar but not the same as the original.
Whether you zoom out in the viewer or export a resized version, in either case a smaller version of the file needs to be rendered for display. In order to achieve a certain output sharpness, the original or 100% size has to be sharpened more to make up for the resulting loss. This is usually fine, as it's unlikely that the original will ever be seen by anyone at 100%. All that matters is the output size and sharpness.
Another way would have been to keep the sharpness in check on the original at 100%, export to output size and re-sharpen that smaller version after the fact. But that's a bit a convoluted process IMHO.
Fortunately, C1 v10 now makes this easier with specific output sharpening (). You can keep the 100% at normal sharpening levels and add more sharpening just for the output. However, a zoomed out viewer still has to render a smaller image on the fly which will have less sharpness than the 100%. As I mentioned above, this is inherent to the compression process and is the way it is supposed to work. This is not unique to C1, any other application that displays images does the same, with varying results. This is expected and not an issue.
Having said all that; from your images it looks like really heavy oversharpening, if you see that much white. This should generally not be needed if your focus is accurate and the lens is (micro) adjusted properly. I would give the camera setup a once-over first to make sure that's in good order. I rarely ever would have to sharpen that much, unless my focus clearly went off on the wrong focal plane and I really wanted to salvage the shot.
HTH0 -
Hi dredlew, thanks for your reply. [quote="dredlew" wrote:
...
The smaller version of the file will look different as it has been scaled/compressed down and extra/unnecessary information gets thrown out. ... This is usually fine, as it's unlikely that the original will ever be seen by anyone at 100%. All that matters is the output size and sharpness.
...
That is a good explanation as to why a single image would look different when scaled.
I understand that perfectly, and to that extent I wrote that:[quote="NN635992461021583172UL" wrote:
...
At first, this kind of behavior doesn't seem like a bug - after all, the same image viewed at different zoom levels will look different, albeit very unlikely in my opinion, to show the differences I'm seeing.
...
However the problem I'm describing is different, more specifically:[quote="NN635992461021583172UL" wrote:
... this behavior is not consistent across file formats. ...
Put another way: two files (a Sony arw, and and a 16bit uncompressed tiff) that look identical at a 100% zoom level in the viewer, do not look the same when viewed at a 'Fit' zoom level.
Moreover, as the non raw file is a 16bit uncompressed tiff, it's not only supposed to look the same to the naked eye, it's supposed to actually be the exact same color pixel-by-pixel at 100%, if I understand correctly.
So for files that are identical at 100%, I'd expect the viewer to show the exact same preview at a 'Fit' zoom level.[quote="dredlew" wrote:
...
Another way would have been to keep the sharpness in check ... Fortunately, C1 v10 now makes this easier with specific output sharpening ... will have less sharpness than the 100%.
...
These are all workarounds for a problem with how the viewer works with Sony raw files.
I could also for instance export the original to a tiff and work on that, as its preview representation is more accurate.
However, at this point I'm not yet looking for cumbersome workarounds but rather to either actually solve the problem if possible (e.g. by ticking some checkbox I'm unaware of somewhere in the settings), or if not at least have the phase one development team be aware of this issue.
Cheers.0 -
Same problem here. Raised a ticked and PhaseOne's response today was truly awful: "it's by design".
At 100% my subject's skin colour is accurate and pink. At 50%, the subject instantly turns ill with clear signs of jaundice.
Also working with Sony A7ii RAW files at high ISO.
One thing which DOES significantly reduce (but not remove) the yellow colour cast is to change the ICC Profile under Base Characteristics tab to "sRGB Color Space Profile" (you need to select "Show All" first).
But this approach is completely inconvenient as it's on a per-image basis. This definitely feels like an issue with the use of colour profiles (possibly linked to camera/raw file type) for rendering images in the preview/editing window.
I don't hold much hope as I see the forum littered with this same problem, dating all the way back to CO7.0
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