Skip to main content

⚠️ Please note that this topic or post has been archived. The information contained here may no longer be accurate or up-to-date. ⚠️

contrast shift COP to photoshop

Erik Williamson
since upgrading to captureone pro 5 and now 6 I have had a persistent problem that I'd like to fix. When I process out a file from COP and then open in photoshop it looks darker and flatter. I'm then adjusting the image in photoshop which kind of defeats the purpose of use COP in the first place I would have thought. Now obviously I must have some settings which are wrong because I would have though the goal is to have each image looking the same in all software.
I'm using a p45+, mac os 10.6.5, COP vers 6.0.1 on a i7 imac screen calibrated with a colourmonki.
I shoot to phaseone camera profiles and embed SRGB on process (although I have tried imbedding the camera profile and then using that in PS).
In photoshop working space is SRGB conversion is Adobe ACE intent is perceptual (although I have also tried relative colourmetric).
Any help would be greatly appreciated
e
0

Comments

15 comments

Date Votes
  • thowi
    could you post a screenshot with a crop of a capture zoomed to 100% in Capture One side by side to the processed TIF of the same crop zoomed to 100% in Photoshop?
    Besides: did you create a matrix or a table based monitor profile with colormunki?
    0
  • derek hillier
    I dont think sRGB is a good colour space for print work nut its great if you only do web stuff.

    Here is an article explaining all

    http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutori ... GB1998.htm
    0
  • Paul Steunebrink
    Did you had the problem too if you process with the camera profile embedded?

    I had a similar problem with one of the latest CO 5 Pro releases. I resolved it by deleting the default session file and the preference file.
    0
  • Robert Goldstein
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    Did you had the problem too if you process with the camera profile embedded?

    I had a similar problem with one of the latest CO 5 Pro releases. I resolved it by deleting the default session file and the preference file.


    Paul,

    Could please elaborate on this, i.e. when, where and how to do this?

    Thanks,
    Rob
    0
  • Paul Steunebrink
    [quote="robgo2" wrote:
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    Did you had the problem too if you process with the camera profile embedded?

    I had a similar problem with one of the latest CO 5 Pro releases. I resolved it by deleting the default session file and the preference file.


    Paul,

    Could please elaborate on this, i.e. when, where and how to do this?

    Thanks,
    Rob

    Rob,

    I was referring to the possibility to select the 'Embed camera profile' option in the output recipe, instead of common workspaces like sRGB or AdobeRGB. I had a similar problem recently as the OP, and noticed that changing the output workspace from AdobeRGB to Embed camera profile gave a noticeable difference on screen, which should not, and a reliable preview compared to the processed result in Photoshop.

    Hope this clarifies.
    0
  • thowi
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    I was referring to the possibility to select the 'Embed camera profile' option in the output recipe, instead of common workspaces like sRGB or AdobeRGB. I had a similar problem recently as the OP, and noticed that changing the output workspace from AdobeRGB to Embed camera profile gave a noticeable difference on screen, which should not, and a reliable preview compared to the processed result in Photoshop.
    I have been processing my TIFs with the camera profile embeded for years and basically this isn't an issue.
    There might be a problem with the monitor profile as C1 doesn't provide black point compensation for the translation to the monitor profile. But it depends on the black point of the monitor profile and also on the type of monitor profile (matrix vs. LUT) in conjunction with the color preferences in C1 (perceptual vs. rel.col).
    0
  • Paul Steunebrink
    [quote="thowi" wrote:
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    I was referring to the possibility to select the 'Embed camera profile' option in the output recipe, instead of common workspaces like sRGB or AdobeRGB. I had a similar problem recently as the OP, and noticed that changing the output workspace from AdobeRGB to Embed camera profile gave a noticeable difference on screen, which should not, and a reliable preview compared to the processed result in Photoshop.
    I have been processing my TIFs with the camera profile embeded for years and basically this isn't an issue.
    There might be a problem with the monitor profile as C1 doesn't provide black point compensation for the translation to the monitor profile. But it depends on the black point of the monitor profile and also on the type of monitor profile (matrix vs. LUT) in conjunction with the color preferences in C1 (perceptual vs. rel.col).

    What I forgot to mention regarding the difference in screen display in this case was that when selecting the embed camera profile option, it rendered in a CORRECT display (and with AdobeRGB not). All is correct now after reset of CO.
    0
  • Robert Goldstein
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    [quote="robgo2" wrote:
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    Did you had the problem too if you process with the camera profile embedded?

    I had a similar problem with one of the latest CO 5 Pro releases. I resolved it by deleting the default session file and the preference file.


    Paul,

    Could please elaborate on this, i.e. when, where and how to do this?

    Thanks,
    Rob

    Rob,

    I was referring to the possibility to select the 'Embed camera profile' option in the output recipe, instead of common workspaces like sRGB or AdobeRGB. I had a similar problem recently as the OP, and noticed that changing the output workspace from AdobeRGB to Embed camera profile gave a noticeable difference on screen, which should not, and a reliable preview compared to the processed result in Photoshop.

    Hope this clarifies.


    Paul,

    I have tried this, and it does seem to produce tifs that are closer to what I see in Capture One, but what color space am I now using in Photoshop? PS presents a dialog asking whether I want to use the embedded profile (camera) or the working color space (ProPhoto.) If I choose the former, then I am not in the latter, right?

    Rob
    0
  • Paul Steunebrink
    Rob,

    Yes, because now the embedded workspace profile (=camera profile) is different from the workspace profile you defined in Photoshop's Color Settings, you will get the dialog (you can set this different in the same settings by unchecking 'Ask when opening'). You now have a different (and larger than AdobeRGB) workspace, which is fine for PS, color management wise. You can convert to any other workspace with the Convert to Profile-command in PS.

    Based on your report, you probably ran into the same kind of error state as I did, in that using another workspace like AdobeRGB in CO, does not render a proper preview on display. Like I reported earlier, I refreshed my CO setup by removing both the default session file (Capture One.col50) as well as the preferences file(s).
    0
  • Robert Goldstein
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    Rob,

    Yes, because now the embedded workspace profile (=camera profile) is different from the workspace profile you defined in Photoshop's Color Settings, you will get the dialog (you can set this different in the same settings by unchecking 'Ask when opening'). You now have a different (and larger than AdobeRGB) workspace, which is fine for PS, color management wise. You can convert to any other workspace with the Convert to Profile-command in PS.

    Based on your report, you probably ran into the same kind of error state as I did, in that using another workspace like AdobeRGB in CO, does not render a proper preview on display. Like I reported earlier, I refreshed my CO setup by removing both the default session file (Capture One.col50) as well as the preferences file(s).


    Paul,

    Where do you choose a working color space in Capture One? I know that there is a Proof Profile, in which I have checked "Selected Recipe." And when you say that you remove the default session, do you have to do this for each session individually? Finally, where are the Capture One preferences located? I know that Preferences are found under the Capture One menu, but where would one go to delete them, and, having done that, what would take their place?

    Sorry to be so dense, but I find this somewhat confusing.

    Rob
    0
  • Paul Steunebrink
    Rob,

    Always good to ask what you don't understand, so keep them coming. Instead of explaining every detail upfront, I wait what has been understood and what not.

    For the output profile, go to the Output tool tab. In Process Recipe tool, go ICC Profile, select one from drop down list. You do not choose a color space in Capture One as you do in Photoshop (because there is no color space yet), you determine the workspace profile on output (and in general have Photoshop use a matching color space, but this is not a must, you can let PS accept a different color/workspace profile on opening as discussed earlier here).

    Proof Profile, Selected Recipe is the way to go.

    To refresh the preferences, delete the preference file com.phaseone.captureone.com in folder <user name>/Library/Preferences. Note that when on OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) their is a second pref file next to it with a similar name (with LSS or LLS in it IIRC). Delete with CO6 closed. On opening CO6 new files will be created.

    The default session file is the one CO6 always created on first start when missing. The file Capture One.col50 can be found in <user name>/Pictures/Capture One Library.

    My experience with CO 4.5 Pro and later is that when you always use the default session, a refresh every now and then is recommended. However with CO 4/5/6 Pro/DB removing the default session file is a bit confusing to the program when the preference file states that it should use that session but it is not available. By removing the preference file together with the default session file, CO6 Pro starts like the first time on a clean system, creating the default session file and leaving the session folder intact.

    Of course, you may information in the session file (like favorites, albums) but only for the default session. And you may have to set preferences again.
    0
  • Robert Goldstein
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    Rob,

    Always good to ask what you don't understand, so keep them coming. Instead of explaining every detail upfront, I wait what has been understood and what not.

    For the output profile, go to the Output tool tab. In Process Recipe tool, go ICC Profile, select one from drop down list. You do not choose a color space in Capture One as you do in Photoshop (because there is no color space yet), you determine the workspace profile on output (and in general have Photoshop use a matching color space, but this is not a must, you can let PS accept a different color/workspace profile on opening as discussed earlier here).

    Proof Profile, Selected Recipe is the way to go.

    To refresh the preferences, delete the preference file com.phaseone.captureone.com in folder <user name>/Library/Preferences. Note that when on OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) their is a second pref file next to it with a similar name (with LSS or LLS in it IIRC). Delete with CO6 closed. On opening CO6 new files will be created.

    The default session file is the one CO6 always created on first start when missing. The file Capture One.col50 can be found in <user name>/Pictures/Capture One Library.

    My experience with CO 4.5 Pro and later is that when you always use the default session, a refresh every now and then is recommended. However with CO 4/5/6 Pro/DB removing the default session file is a bit confusing to the program when the preference file states that it should use that session but it is not available. By removing the preference file together with the default session file, CO6 Pro starts like the first time on a clean system, creating the default session file and leaving the session folder intact.

    Of course, you may information in the session file (like favorites, albums) but only for the default session. And you may have to set preferences again.


    Thanks, Paul. Deleting things like this is a bit scary, because of the possibility that the program will be completely mucked up afterwards. However, I have found all the relevant files. I gather that I should not delete the LSS preference file.

    In your workflow, what color working space do you use in PS--embedded camera profile or something else? It seems to me that the former renders an image that is much closer to what I see in Capture One, but is that better or worse than ProPhoto or Adobe 1998 in terms of producing good prints?

    Rob
    0
  • Paul Steunebrink
    Rob,

    You can delete the LSS pref file as well. To mitigate the scariness of the action, copy the files to a external disk first, then delete, empty trash and start CO6.

    Regarding to your workspace question: selecting a color space like AdobeRGB, ProPhoto or embed the camera profile does not (or should not) give a different image on screen. Both Capture One and Photoshop are fully color managed applications. As a result, they will render the image with the associated profile through your monitor with your monitor profile. The image on screen at 100% size should be very close between these two programs.
    I have Photoshop set to AdobeRGB work space, but allow a different color space on opening to prevent unnecessary conversions.

    Regarding the best color space for printing: this is a bit off-topic, but hey, its Christmas so I give you my biased opinion.
    It depends on the color gamut of your printer. Modern multi-cartridge inkjet printers have colors beyond the AdobeRGB space, hence the reason some photographers use the camera profile for output, which is in general larger than AdobeRGB. ProPhoto RGB is often regarded as a too large color space, with the potential risk of color shifts when converting to small color space for web (sRGB). Unless you know what you are doing, AdobeRGB or the camera profile gives you perfect results every day of the year.
    0
  • thowi
    some points to consider...

    - basically, regarding a "match" between C1 and Photoshop it should not make a difference if you choose to work in the "camera profile" or any other working space (as long as you set your color prefs in Photoshop to preserve embedded profiles). Only if the output profile is a table based profile there can be a difference (depends...)

    - mostly "mismatches" are due to different viewing conditions in C1 and Photoshop. C1 is dark... Photoshop is light grey. This alone has a huge impact on the perception of the respective image.
    It makes sense to set the background in C1 to "light" and to use the "proof margin". Also set the background in Photoshop to the exact same grey level as C1's "light" background.

    - Given the viewing conditions are (almost) equalized and all color management settings are correct ... there can still be a difference: C1 does not provide black point compensation (BPC) for rel.col. color conversions... and this is tricky...
    If your monitor profile is matrix based the only rendering intend available is rel.col. You can select "perceptual" in the color preferences, however due to the limitations of matrix profiles in conjunction with current CMMs the only RI that can effectively be performed is rel.col. It's confusing... but it's a fact. And it also applies to the translation to the monitor profile!
    Only if a target profile is table based and at the same time contains a perceptual table a perceptual rendering intend can be performed. Table based monitor profiles do contain a perceptual table. To complicate things even further... the perceptual table of a monitor profile is the same as the rel.col table... but the black point is taken into account in color conversions.
    Now, if your monitor profile contains a black point brighter than Lab 0|0|0 ... the preview in C1 may show something different than the processed TIF in Photoshop:
    1) If your monitor profile is matrix based the deepest blacks will be clipped in C1 (as here the translation to the monitor is rel.col ... either way what the color prefs in C1 are set to)
    2) if your monitor profile is table based and the color prefs in C1 are set to rel.col it's the same as in 1) (i.e. the deepest blacks get clipped)
    3) if your monitor profile is table based and the color prefs in C1 are set to perceptual the match between C1 and Photoshop should be much closer... but still slightly different as Photoshop ALWAYS translates to the monitor profile using rel.col. WITH black point compensation (why? Because it's the only RI that really makes sense for the translation to the monitor profile... anything else is rudimentary, substandard color management... and this, unfortunatley, applies to Capture One)

    In how far the preview in C1 differs from the processed TIF viewed in Photoshop depends on the black point of the monitor. On my "good" Eizo I've intentionally boosted the monitor's black level (0.3 cd/m2). The respective Lab value is 3|0|0. As I use a matrix profile here the black clipping is heavy (I have a workaround for that but that's too complicated to explain here).
    On the shitty screen of my Macbook Pro the black point is Lab 1|-1|1. I use a table based profile here and the color prefs in C1 are set to perceptual. So there is only a slight difference between C1 and Photoshop - but still noticeable.

    Most monitors can't produce pure blacks ... and if your are calibrating your display to a certain white point the blacks will be boosted even further. In fact the highest end monitors are based on IPS panels and they can't go that low ... so if you use a high end monitor and a decent calibration software you are actually screwed when working with C1 (as long as it doesn't provide rel.col+BPC for the translation to the monitor profile).

    All this only explains a difference in "contrast" between C1 and Photoshop. Depending on the actual black level of the monitor the differences can be marginal or clearly visible.
    Other than that the color management in C1 is up to the task... so if there are obvious differences between C1 and Photoshop (differences in saturation, hue etc.) than you have to investigate where these come from... certainly not from the choice of the working space or the gamut of the working space or so.

    edit: one reason for my long (hopefully comprehensible) post is that I am under the impression that obviously nobody cares about that. I have been asking for a rel.col + BPC rendering intend in Capture One for two years or so.
    Primarly with regard to an accurate translation to the monitor profile... but it would also be useful if you output to a printer profile from C1 using rel.col. instead of perceptual. Choose any CMYK color space for output and set the color prefs to rel.col. ... and you'll immediately see the clipping of the blacks... bummer.
    So... if you agree... please file suppport cases. The more people asking for it, the higher the chance that we get rel.col + BPC one day (Phase just introduced BPC as an option in the printer tool - so obviously it is possible).
    0
  • Robert Goldstein
    [quote="Paul_E" wrote:
    Rob,

    You can delete the LSS pref file as well. To mitigate the scariness of the action, copy the files to a external disk first, then delete, empty trash and start CO6.

    Regarding to your workspace question: selecting a color space like AdobeRGB, ProPhoto or embed the camera profile does not (or should not) give a different image on screen. Both Capture One and Photoshop are fully color managed applications. As a result, they will render the image with the associated profile through your monitor with your monitor profile. The image on screen at 100% size should be very close between these two programs.
    I have Photoshop set to AdobeRGB work space, but allow a different color space on opening to prevent unnecessary conversions.

    Regarding the best color space for printing: this is a bit off-topic, but hey, its Christmas so I give you my biased opinion.
    It depends on the color gamut of your printer. Modern multi-cartridge inkjet printers have colors beyond the AdobeRGB space, hence the reason some photographers use the camera profile for output, which is in general larger than AdobeRGB. ProPhoto RGB is often regarded as a too large color space, with the potential risk of color shifts when converting to small color space for web (sRGB). Unless you know what you are doing, AdobeRGB or the camera profile gives you perfect results every day of the year.


    Paul,

    I will give this a try. The only thing that really bothers me is losing my favorites folders, as they are the main way that I organize my sessions.

    FWIW, I print with an Epson 3880.

    Rob
    0

Post is closed for comments.