Phase One Pricing
Wow, so the upgrade pricing from Version 10 to 11 is the same as Version 9 to 11?
Shouldn't it be slightly more than half the price?
119 Euros for what looks to be an annual point release?
On what kind of planet does it makes sense to disincentivise your core users from keeping on the latest version?
I swallowed the upgrade pricing for Version 9 to 10 but no way am I supporting this craziness anymore.
At what stage will P1 switch to subscriptions because it looks like they're pretty much already there...
Not to mention the pricing on those P1 Style Packs they released recently.
This will probably be the last time I upgrade C1P for a while if at all, which is a real shame because I genuinely like and support the application but am not a pro and not able to write these crazy prices off on tax.
I even wrote several pages of improvements/requests and sent it to the developers.
But it's pretty obvious that some manager over at P1 has a massive bonus riding on growing P1 profits in the short term...
Shouldn't it be slightly more than half the price?
119 Euros for what looks to be an annual point release?
On what kind of planet does it makes sense to disincentivise your core users from keeping on the latest version?
I swallowed the upgrade pricing for Version 9 to 10 but no way am I supporting this craziness anymore.
At what stage will P1 switch to subscriptions because it looks like they're pretty much already there...
Not to mention the pricing on those P1 Style Packs they released recently.
This will probably be the last time I upgrade C1P for a while if at all, which is a real shame because I genuinely like and support the application but am not a pro and not able to write these crazy prices off on tax.
I even wrote several pages of improvements/requests and sent it to the developers.
But it's pretty obvious that some manager over at P1 has a massive bonus riding on growing P1 profits in the short term...
0
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[quote="paulsydaus" wrote:
Wow, so the upgrade pricing from Version 10 to 11 is the same as Version 9 to 11?
Shouldn't it be slightly more than half the price?
119 Euros for what looks to be an annual point release?
On what kind of planet does it makes sense to disincentivise your core users from keeping on the latest version?
I swallowed the upgrade pricing for Version 9 to 10 but no way am I supporting this craziness anymore.
At what stage will P1 switch to subscriptions because it looks like they're pretty much already there...
Not to mention the pricing on those P1 Style Packs they released recently.
This will probably be the last time I upgrade C1P for a while if at all, which is a real shame because I genuinely like and support the application but am not a pro and not able to write these crazy prices off on tax.
I even wrote several pages of improvements/requests and sent it to the developers.
But it's pretty obvious that some manager over at P1 has a massive bonus riding on growing P1 profits in the short term...
You will not likely get a direct reply from Phase one here, but my take on the pricing development is that they are focussing more and more on productive professionals in fashion and advertising, and are slowly leaving the core group of (enthousiast) photographers that chose CO1 mostly for IQ, behind. Do they have a right to do so? Sure. Is it wise? I don't know. I am also getting off the upgrade train. At 150 euros and further future 20% jumps, combined with features that I will never use myself (like annotations), it is getting too expensive. And the fact that you cannot rely on pricing remaining stable, is undermining my motivation to stick with CO1. Also, the "don't upgrade then" route is pretty useless, given that OS updates repeatedly make CO1 unuseable, like with the recent Windows 10 update that totally broke CO1 sessions due to a change in file writing or handling or such. You will then be forced to upgrade anyhow...
Chris0 -
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
[quote="paulsydaus" wrote:
You will not likely get a direct reply from Phase one here, but my take on the pricing development is that they are focussing more and more on productive professionals in fashion and advertising, and are slowly leaving the core group of (enthousiast) photographers that chose CO1 mostly for IQ, behind.
I wouldn't say you guys are wrong but I see this in a different light. While I'm sure enthusiasts make up a large part of the Capture One market, Phase One has always been focussed on the professional market with Capture One, and that is the core group of users. The software was initially created for Phase One medium format backs after all was it not, how many enthusiasts use digital MF? Now amateurs are using it more and more and Phase One is trying to cater to them to compete with the catalog features in Lightroom.
Sure nobody likes price hikes, but it seems like most price complaints are coming from amateur photographers who can't justify the $300 initial cost of the product and $120 upgrade cost each year when a new version is release, yet want the features. Why should Phase One be expected to ask an amateur price for delivering a professional product? That comes out to $15/month over 3 years, same as the subscription fee. For professionals who use it on a daily/weekly basis the industry standard reliable and fast tethering is worth $15/month by itself.0 -
[quote="cdc" wrote:
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
[quote="paulsydaus" wrote:
You will not likely get a direct reply from Phase one here, but my take on the pricing development is that they are focussing more and more on productive professionals in fashion and advertising, and are slowly leaving the core group of (enthousiast) photographers that chose CO1 mostly for IQ, behind.
I wouldn't say you guys are wrong but I see this in a different light. While I'm sure enthusiasts make up a large part of the Capture One market, Phase One has always been focussed on the professional market with Capture One, and that is the core group of users. The software was initially created for Phase One medium format backs after all was it not, how many enthusiasts use digital MF? Now amateurs are using it more and more and Phase One is trying to cater to them to compete with the catalog features in Lightroom.
Sure nobody likes price hikes, but it seems like most price complaints are coming from amateur photographers who can't justify the $300 initial cost of the product and $120 upgrade cost each year when a new version is release, yet want the features. Why should Phase One be expected to ask an amateur price for delivering a professional product? That comes out to $15/month over 3 years, same as the subscription fee. For professionals who use it on a daily/weekly basis the industry standard reliable and fast tethering is worth $15/month by itself.
Exactly, compared to the investments in hardware that professional fashion photographers make, the upgrade fee for CO1 is nothing.
For advanced amateur photographers, it is another matter.
Don't forget however, that 20% price hikes are not that normal, not for hardware and not for software.
Image that your car suddenly gets a 20% price raise, did you see it coming? Regardless off whether you can afford a car after the raise, you don't assume such a price hike.
Price raises like this always take you by surprise...
Chris0 -
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
[quote="cdc" wrote:
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
I wouldn't say you guys are wrong but I see this in a different light. While I'm sure enthusiasts make up a large part of the Capture One market, Phase One has always been focussed on the professional market with Capture One, and that is the core group of users. The software was initially created for Phase One medium format backs after all was it not, how many enthusiasts use digital MF? Now amateurs are using it more and more and Phase One is trying to cater to them to compete with the catalog features in Lightroom.
Sure nobody likes price hikes, but it seems like most price complaints are coming from amateur photographers who can't justify the $300 initial cost of the product and $120 upgrade cost each year when a new version is release, yet want the features. Why should Phase One be expected to ask an amateur price for delivering a professional product? That comes out to $15/month over 3 years, same as the subscription fee. For professionals who use it on a daily/weekly basis the industry standard reliable and fast tethering is worth $15/month by itself.
Exactly, compared to the investments in hardware that professional fashion photographers make, the upgrade fee for CO1 is nothing.
For advanced amateur photographers, it is another matter.
Don't forget however, that 20% price hikes are not that normal, not for hardware and not for software.
Image that your car suddenly gets a 20% price raise, did you see it coming? Regardless off whether you can afford a car after the raise, you don't assume such a price hike.
Price raises like this always take you by surprise...
Chris
Six months ago could buy butter in my local store for between £.95 and £1.09 depending on the supplier's and the retailer's marketing policy week by week or day by day. That's a variation of around 20%. Quite normal for food is seems. Also for some types of insurance policy.
Now the lowest price is £1.69.
The price of fuel has similar variations.
The revenue requested has to fund not only software design and development but also technical support and webinars, videos. camera evaluation and profiling, lens analysis and supporting two operating system developers who both seem keen to make everyone else do their testing and corrective work for them.
A rush of new users arriving because they have come to dislike policies enacted by their previous vendors certainly sound like good news doesn't it? But it might no be that simple. If the demand on support due to the sudden inrush is very large and the support is offered for no fee the costs may be quite high. Quite possibly they may exceed the revenues.
Back in the early days of the spread of computing through business (late 1970 and early 1980) there were many very successful companies that failed despite rapidly increasing sales and large order books. The concept that rapid increase in business is always good is simply not true ... unless the cash flow can be managed very well.
Remember that the management will have partners and shareholders all seeking their part of the takings.
Sometimes, as a manager, you just have to do things that you may not really want to do but to have any chance to move ahead it has to be done.
I have no idea whether that is relevant here but just wanted to remind people that making assumptions about why people are taking certain decisions when there are no available facts to discuss that cover the wide picture is probably not going to help anyone much.
If you don't think a deal is worth it, don't take it.
For me there was a lot of interesting stuff in V10 but much of the potential additional benefit was Mac oriented or offered the option to extend the use of additional kit that I was unlikely to be buying. I had no immediate need of new camera coverage so I though I would wait to see how the year, mine and C1's, progressed.
I never did upgrade to V10 but now the combination of the V10 and V11 enhancements together make enough potential value to convince myself that it is a good upgrade for my purposes.
The annual upgrade has, for most companies, replaced the 18 month upgrade period that used to work for them. Love it or hate it I think it will be around for a while and I don't imagine that prices will start to fall or be constrained soon, especially if people want any "real" advances in depth and spread of functionality.
Just my opinion of course.
Grant0 -
I appreciate the reply guys, and generally agree with everything said. But I'd like to make two observations.
Firstly, I've been a C1P user since Version 6 I think, and it wasn't always like this. This crazy annual pricing for minor point updates is something new, only the last couple of years. I have already invested heavily as an amateur but don't see the value in supporting the updates anymore. I guess like others have said, they don't need/want business from people like me.
Secondly, if there were significant new features I could use and have requested, like out of gamut warnings for example (even Light room has this), and some lens profiles for lenses I use, then maybe I'll reconsider. But there isn't...
The process of comparing edits with originals is still sub-par, the manual is poor, and there is no way quickly see a summary of all edits made to an image. I have told P1 about all this and much more, but so far nothing has come of it...0 -
[quote="paulsydaus" wrote:
I guess like others have said, they don't need/want business from people like me.
I was dismissing this theory at first, but it starts to look like the most logical one. I assume that C1's user base has always been significantly lower than LR's and the gap is probably widening, so it makes some sense for them to focus on people willing to pay heavy price for the IQ alone and let go everyone else. On the other hand, if that's really the case, then why not just double or triple the price? It's confusing...0 -
[quote="tomba4" wrote:
[quote="paulsydaus" wrote:
I guess like others have said, they don't need/want business from people like me.
I was dismissing this theory at first, but it starts to look like the most logical one. I assume that C1's user base has always been significantly lower than LR's and the gap is probably widening, so it makes some sense for them to focus on people willing to pay heavy price for the IQ alone and let go everyone else. On the other hand, if that's really the case, then why not just double or triple the price? It's confusing...
It's not a matter of simply dumping all non-professional users, I would say. That would make no sense. I guess it is much more a matter of slowly shifting away from non-professional users towards their user base in fashion and advertising. I assume that people at the amateur end won't all suddenly quit using CO1, but more likely the bottom end will slowly erode, also depending on future price policy.
I do believe the first signal has now been given: If you are not in the professional advertising or fashion business, but instead an advanced amateur photographer, then think it through properly, whether CO1 is the right product for you. In the same way Phase one has a right and sense in making their pricing policy agressive, we as users have a right and should have the sense to get off the upgrade train at due time.
Chris0 -
The Adobe way: I have just tried to cancel my monthly donation to Adobe's coffers. Ooops! An immediate cancellation will cost me the equivalent of 6 months pay-as-you-go £55). OR I can continue on the Adobe path (be a good boy) and I will be rewarded with 60 free days. (Does P1 offer this, I wonder?)
The Adobe offer is a no brainer really. But I am trying to downsize (cameras and software). I have PS Elements on trial - probably adequate for 95% of my needs. But still I find I am getting a tug from C1 v11 to upgrade from v9.
At the moment, wherever I look I see new hardware and software with new ideas. Ideas that I can put into practice with pleasing results. Perhaps I need a push from the P1-C1 team to remind me why C1 should be my first choice for go-to raw conversion! But I have yet to see a useful P1-C1 article on v11. Is it hidden somewhere?
A Merry Christmas to one and all who keep this forum going.
Peter0 -
What irks me the most is pricing the upgrade from V10 the same as V9. WTF?
Yes the prices are increasing but as I've said this makes aboslutely no sense.
I would probably upgdrade if they offered it say 69 Euros from V10 or there abouts...
But there is just no incentive to stay current when to upgrade annually rather than bi-annually costs me doubt. This makes no sense. In general, you want as many users as possible running the latest version don't you?
I'm sticking with C1P10 for a year and will check back in 12 months to see if any sanity has prevailed.
I'll probably make my long term decision then.0 -
[quote="paulsydaus" wrote:
What irks me the most is pricing the upgrade from V10 the same as V9. WTF?
Yes the prices are increasing but as I've said this makes aboslutely no sense.
I would probably upgdrade if they offered it say 69 Euros from V10 or there abouts...
But there is just no incentive to stay current when to upgrade annually rather than bi-annually costs me doubt. This makes no sense. In general, you want as many users as possible running the latest version don't you?
I'm sticking with C1P10 for a year and will check back in 12 months to see if any sanity has prevailed.
I'll probably make my long term decision then.
Good choice.
If there is nothing in V11 compared to V10 that appeals to you and seems to be worth the upgrade price the traditional upgrade option that allows user to skip a version is quite appealing is it not?
I looked at V10 and liked what I saw but could not justify buying a Tangent device and had no use for the additional Apple Script features being a Windows user.
I did not have new camera bodies or lenses to support and although I liked many of the features new to V10 I was not in a "must buy" situation. It also seemed likely from what I could see that I had less GPU involvement in processing than I had with V9. So I decided to wait to see what updates delivered.
The updates seemed useful but not entirely vital for my purposes. In some ways I preferred the results of V9 to V10 anyway.
Now with V11 the new features, added to the best of the Windows relevant V10 features, make for a better investment from my perspective and I'm grateful that Phase continue to support the 2 versions back concept. It allowed me to do for the past 12 months what you plan to do for the next 12 months and I can't see the problem with that.
I'm not at all sure that it is always of benefit to the developer to drag all users up to the latest version of software all the time. Those users who wish for that may take a subscription model anyway. But in a corporate world - just used as an example - the idea of constantly changing the software installation to get the latest and greatest feature and functions can be a complete nightmare to support and often does not happen. Realistically it's much the same for individual users. And sometimes for the developers too.
I think Phase get the balance about right compared to several other vendors I need to use and given the fairly narrow vertical market that their software offerings address. But that's just my view and I fully appreciate that others may see things differently.
Grant0 -
A long-term Lightroom/Photoshop user, I bought Capture One four months ago (the main reason was a much better default rendition of raw files) - and was debating the wisdom of paying for an upgrade so soon, specially because there are no really compelling features for me.
The vastly improved Auto Tone button in Lightroom has ended the debate.0 -
[quote="Irv00" wrote:
A long-term Lightroom/Photoshop user, I bought Capture One four months ago (the main reason was a much better default rendition of raw files) - and was debating the wisdom of paying for an upgrade so soon, specially because there are no really compelling features for me.
The vastly improved Auto Tone button in Lightroom has ended the debate.
If the new features are not compelling for you, there is no compulsion to upgrade!
Ian0 -
[quote="Ian3" wrote:
[quote="Irv00" wrote:
A long-term Lightroom/Photoshop user, I bought Capture One four months ago (the main reason was a much better default rendition of raw files) - and was debating the wisdom of paying for an upgrade so soon, specially because there are no really compelling features for me.
The vastly improved Auto Tone button in Lightroom has ended the debate.
If the new features are not compelling for you, there is no compulsion to upgrade!
Ian
Absolutely. That's why I did not upgrade. That's why I will skip this version.0 -
Well,
I am a longtime user of LR and I am now looking in C1 and thats not because of the pricing or the subscription thing with Adobe, but rather the performance issues LR has.
That said,
about the pricing thing. Okay, I must admit, I first thought hard about a price of around 300 bucks for the full software. But I then I remember the time, when I first bought Lightroom and it was too around 250 bucks (I think it was LR 2.0 times). With the later versiones they lowered the price but an update still cost around 100 EUR then.
Surely that changed when they put out the subscription thing with about 12 EuR a month (but with the penalty that you dont own the software when you cancel the subscription), so the pricing of LR is far more better and cheaper than C1 (and you get Photoshop with the subscription).
Well, I dont want to advertise LR and Adobes subscription model here, but rather show you, that LR had a similar pricing strategy than C1 some time before.
And while I think 300 EUR is a lot of money, most of my photo equipment is much much more expensive.0 -
Barely three years into amateur photography, and loving photography immensely, I still could never imagine myself going professional. I first used ACDSee for a few months, then switched to the Adobe Photography bundle of Lr and Ps. Having since gotten quite used to Lr, and finding it satifying just about all my needs, I never got around to learning Ps anything beyond the most rudimentary. Steadily improving in both my photography and my postprocessing skills, I still never felt quite at home with the sluggishness of a bothersome and clunky Lr, and I started to explore alternatives. Testing ON1 Photo RAW on and off for about a year, I never felt at home there, either. Then I tried Capture One Pro 11 and was totally blown away with its wonderful, clean, and customisable interface, and not to say the least of the results of postprocessing it gave me -- with much less effort than the mediocre results than what Lr could give me.
I know, people have argued against C1 processing RAW giving "better images", for that is a subjective matter, but barely two weeks into using C1 I find I'm really, really loving it and the results I'm getting. As for switching from Adobe -- well, I've never even looked back once.
I have no problems with the subscription model even though C1 is a bit more expensive than Lr+Ps. But I also do believe it would not be a smart move of Phase One to ignore a user base of amateur and semi-professional photographers, and instead focusing exclusively on professional users. I would imagine there are quite a few amateur users out there looking for a better alternative to Adobe, and I certainly hope Phase One will keep C1 reasonably priced (it is a tad steep, though, I know).0 -
It’s a business decision,after all. Good? Bad? Who knows!
If enough people pay, it’s a good decision by Phase One. If not enough people pay, it’s a bad decision and prices will come down to more reasonable levels.
I doubt the ‘professional fashion photographers only’ theory used to justify the pricing strategy. I think Phase One does not care one bit about who buys (why should they deliberately reduce their user base????) and they are just trying to get the most money they can get from their current good reputation among photography people of all levels.
I have voted with my wallet by not renewing. Good? Bad? Who knows! Like Phase One, I’m just trying to do what is best for me. Will consider renewing when cost goes well under $100. Until then, it’s Photoshop and Lightroom for me, with Capture 10 coming to the rescue when necessary.0
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