C1 adds noise/grain to images
Capture one adds a fine grain/noise to images. I have a number of images where shadow is critical. the net effect of adding this noise is that the shadows are never 100% black.
I realise that eliminating this can make images look "plastic" or unnaturally smooth. However, does anyone know how to tell capture one to NOT add this grain/noise?
I realise that eliminating this can make images look "plastic" or unnaturally smooth. However, does anyone know how to tell capture one to NOT add this grain/noise?
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http://help.phaseone.com/en/CO8/Editing ... ction.aspx & switch it off/zero it 0 -
Deejjjaaaa - Yup this is NOT what I am talking about. grain is set to 0, sharpen and luminance have no effect on this. What I am talking about is a grain that is added to all images. Most noticeable in the darkest shadows. 0 -
It's impossible to talk meaningfully about this sort of thing without information about the camera; the ISO; the Capture One settings applied (including whether you're resizing in Capture One); and example images.
As of right now, it's like going to a doctor, saying "I'm not feeling well" and expecting a full diagnosis and treatment regime on the basis of only that information.0 -
[quote="NN634756744767534272UL" wrote:
Deejjjaaaa - Yup this is NOT what I am talking about. grain is set to 0, sharpen and luminance have no effect on this. What I am talking about is a grain that is added to all images. Most noticeable in the darkest shadows.
well, if you sure that it is not something that is setup in your C1 tools then
1) you image is underexposed - use tools like rawdigger ( http://www.rawdigger.com/ ) or even FRV ( http://www.fastrawviewer.com/ ) to find out how much you are from clipping in areas where you still need details and/or tone
2) bug in C1 then you need to share your raws with P1 support and make a case
3) no bug and image is exposed to the max possible from your standpoint - then it is what it is... or may be consider bringing some light of your own or stack images to average noise out or do exposure bracketing to combine or whatever0 -
OP, post a link to your raw file. 0 -
Thank you to everyone for your replies. This issue happens on Many different canon 5dm3 files from 100-1600 ISO and is only really noticeable in the blacks even if the image is not underexposed...here are three images from 100 black (255, 0,0,0,0) image. One saved as Adobe RGB - 100% - Fixed Jpeg and the other Adobe RGB - fixed Tif 8 &16 bit. I am fairly certain Adobe RGB has a pure black. These images should look absolutely flat and they do not. there is noise. Am I being WAY to picky? seems this noise keeps it from being pure black. 0 -
I don't see any noise in any of them up to 100%.
Taking the image to 400% the infill is slightly visible but that's it.
If I turn the screen brightness right up what seems to be a pattern becomes visible but in all three images the reported RGB and luminosity values are consistently 2,2,2,2 wherever I check them.
If in C1 and I set the active output recipe to be a 16bit TIFF the values change to 6,6,6,6.
If the Tiff recipe is defined to be 16bit output but at 200% scaling of image size the values are still 6,6,6,6 but the screen is noticeably brighter.
Could it be something like that that you are seeing?
Grant0 -
I'm confused by seeing three images all of which have no content and are pure black.
Photoshop histogram shows pure black no matter how much I magnify. I kept my calibrated screen at its usual settings.
Ian0 -
500%?
Really?
Which shade of black were you aiming for?
Grant0 -
Grant the 500% was to show clearly what I see since I was told that the noise wasn't visible to others. I can see it very clearly on a calibrated monitor at <100%. Also I am aiming for Pure black. If I make a pure black tiff in PS or attempt 100% clipping in C1 then process in C1 I should end up with a pure black image. FYI this all started because I noticed this when my images were being downsized and projected. the noise gets larger as the size gets smaller and Tech support claimed it was a JPG issue. I am trying to show by using a pure black tiff that it is neither my imagination, the image capture, or compression. Since this is NOT an issue in LR I am assuming it is something in C1 0 -
Hmm.
Pure black as a concept in digital photography. Safest to assume that the dark end of an image there is no data so set everything to 0000? One assume that every screen and projection device can deal with that without any doubt.
Presumably the best approach would be to set all dark values in such a way that no details can be expected. Would that solve the problem?
Grant0 -
Grant - I am not sure I understand what you are saying - I am unable to create an area of an image with no "detail". I can use levels, curves, exposure, multiple layers... C1 always adds noise in the blacks and shadows. I presume this is to create a more pleasing image but has the net effect of lightening the blacks. 0 -
[quote="NN634756744767534272UL" wrote:
Grant - I am not sure I understand what you are saying - I am unable to create an area of an image with no "detail". I can use levels, curves, exposure, multiple layers... C1 always adds noise in the blacks and shadows. I presume this is to create a more pleasing image but has the net effect of lightening the blacks.
If you set the black point for your TIFF files to somewhere to the right of the histogram shown in the levels tool you will eliminate any potential detail in the deepest blacks as far as I can see. How far you have to adjust it will rather depend on the image's exposure.
There has long been a debate in digital processing circles about how much "detail" (and Dynamic Range) camera sensors and RAW conversion software can extract at either end of the exposure scale. The values are unlikely to be as "absolute" as we may think. I am aware of at least one camera system that claims a DR of 24 stops (iirc) and can capture images where black at the nominal "normal" exposure is not necessarily black at all and blown whites can be re-processed by exposure slider adjustment to show quite normal levels of detail. Something like extreme HDR taken in one shot.
Different software deals with the extended "reach" in different ways to try to provide as much information to work with as possible or, in some cases, to limit that reach in order to, for example, deliver what we interpret as solid black.
If you want to be pretty sure there is no detail in the darkest parts of an image just tell the system to make the darker parts fully black and reinterpret the file's data.
In my opinion if you have to go to 400% (or 500% as you say in your examples) to get to the point where some of the "detail" becomes visible (and there is not much data available to smooth the transitions at that end of the scale thus you get what looks like noise) I would say the code and the chosen values are doing a pretty good job.
However if that does not suit your purpose in some way just change the values in the Levels tool (for example) and eliminate the potential for anything other than "no detail" to be presented. Job done, problem solved and your preferences satisfied. You can then save the result as the default for future processing. That would probably be in line with the other application you mention.
FWIW my other favoured RAW processor, not one you mention, delivers pretty much exactly the same standard result as Capture One and is also recognised for its ability to provide flexibility of processing at each end of the exposure scale in many situations.
HTH.
Grant0 -
Grant - Thank you for taking the time to write your post. I am very aware of using levels and other tools to clip where I dont want detail. My point is that even if I slide the black slider all the way to the right so that there is NO image left C1 creates a noise pattern. Using layer after layer I should at some point be able to create a solid black image but I cannot.
I am sure you missed the part of my post when I said this manufactured noise is visible at under 100% zoom and can even be seen zoomed out to about 75%. I only zoomed in those example to be certain that no matter what monitor you were viewing with one would be able to see the noise pattern I am talking about.
I have used the test of DXO and I am attempting to move completely from LR but in both of those I am able to fully clip the blacks.
Steps to reproduce
1. make tiff pure black in PS (no noise at ANY zoom level)
2 import into C1 (zoom to 75-100% and I see unremovable noise in the image- no mater what levels or settings you change)
3 export as tiff (just in case it is something to do with C1 screen rendering)
4 import into Photoshop and check for noise - it will be there - In theory you should be able to zoom to 50000% and still not see any variations in tone from pixel to pixel.
I guess I just process in C1 bring into LR or PS and clip the blacks there. What a pain I should be able to do this easily in one program. I would just use LR but I HATE the way LR handles color.0
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