Bait and Switch?
Anyone else getting the sneaky suspicion that all the "missing" features in this version of C1 will show up in the Pro version forcing all us LE users to fork out more money just to recover the lost features?
Rob
Rob
0
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I really don't feel that way. After all, that would deprive Phase One of the joy of screwing those guys equally as bad as the LE users. 0 -
[quote="rkircher" wrote:
Anyone else getting the sneaky suspicion that all the "missing" features in this version of C1 will show up in the Pro version forcing all us LE users to fork out more money just to recover the lost features?
Rob
Pro is Pro, LE is LE. nothing to it. Lots of companies do this.
While i think its ok to bash PO's customer service in this case they are only doing what, say Adobe do with PS Elements and PSCS3, Ms with Office and Works etc
Did anyone moan about the LE and Pro versions of V3 being different?
I feel we have got a better LE and for me anyway its better than V3.7.7 pro.
Dave.0 -
[quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
[quote="rkircher" wrote:
Anyone else getting the sneaky suspicion that all the "missing" features in this version of C1 will show up in the Pro version forcing all us LE users to fork out more money just to recover the lost features?
Rob
Pro is Pro, LE is LE. nothing to it. Lots of companies do this.
While i think its ok to bash PO's customer service in this case they are only doing what, say Adobe do with PS Elements and PSCS3, Ms with Office and Works etc
Did anyone moan about the LE and Pro versions of V3 being different?
I feel we have got a better LE and for me anyway its better than V3.7.7 pro.
Dave.
Dave,
What you’re failing to understand is PO has REMOVED feature that exist in 3.7LE. Features that I've already paid for when I purchased the LE version. So the upgrade, if you can call it that, is less functional and there for not an upgrade at all. It’s more like a downgrade; a 3.7 LE Light.
Rob0 -
[quote="rkircher" wrote:
[
Dave,
What you’re failing to understand is PO has REMOVED feature that exist in 3.7LE. Features that I've already paid for when I purchased the LE version. So the upgrade, if you can call it that, is less functional and there for not an upgrade at all. It’s more like a downgrade; a 3.7 LE Light.
Rob
Ok, i understand that now but this is version 4, not v3.7.x. Its a new program. This happens with most big updates of software as far as i can see.
v4 is certainly not less fuctional IMHO even if it does miss out a few things that some people use.
Just out of interest what is missing? Not having use LE properly im still not sure whats in and whats out compared to the pro version anyway.
Dave.0 -
[quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
Ok, i understand that now but this is version 4, not v3.7.x. Its a new program. This happens with most big updates of software as far as i can see.
Happens with most big updates? I challenge you to name 10 pieces of software that REMOVED features with an update. In the past 25 years I personally can't think of one off the top of my head. You see, the word upgrade implies that the upgrade actually ADDS features to the existing library of features. It doesn't imply adding some new features and removing REALLY POPULAR AND IMPORTANT old features.
I was a software engineer myself (lived smack dab in the middle of Silicon Valley) before starting my photography business. Not once was I ever directed to remove a feature from code I'd written. NEVER.
Cheers, Joe0 -
I'm going to try and take another tach here to try and put this into terms that you can understand. Let's say you're car is doing something a little funky under certain conditions. You take it to the dealer and the dealer tells you that it's a known problem but it can be fixed by flashing the ECU with new engine management software. OK great. You get the ECU flashed but now the manufacturer decided they'd remove the software that controls the ABS. You'd be a little pissed off, no??? I mean, you PAID for the ABS when you bought the car right, to have it taken away after the fact is just wrong. Not only is it wrong, I'm willing to bet it's illegal.
Cheers, Joe0 -
[quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
[quote="rkircher" wrote:
[
Dave,
What you’re failing to understand is PO has REMOVED feature that exist in 3.7LE. Features that I've already paid for when I purchased the LE version. So the upgrade, if you can call it that, is less functional and there for not an upgrade at all. It’s more like a downgrade; a 3.7 LE Light.
Rob
Ok, i understand that now but this is version 4, not v3.7.x. Its a new program. This happens with most big updates of software as far as i can see.
v4 is certainly not less fuctional IMHO even if it does miss out a few things that some people use.
Just out of interest what is missing? Not having use LE properly im still not sure whats in and whats out compared to the pro version anyway.
Dave.
Sorry Dave this won't fly. I worked for many years designing and developing image processing software in the document management market and I can tell you with all certainty that not only could we NOT get away with removing commonly used features but we never would have dreamed of releasing a new LESS feature rich replacement version w/o first describing a clear upgrade path for current users. In other words we may have released a “lighter†new release but that would be clearly stated in our marketing materials and guarantees would be made to current customers that their current feature level and productivity would be replaces with the upcoming and appropriate upgrades.
As to missing features. Three come to mind immediately which are huge productivity boosters in my workflow.
1) The ability to move from image to image with the mouse wheel regardless of what window or control has focus.
2) The ability to set a default output folder relative to the originals folder ONCE and never have to think about it again.
3) The ability to set defaults for key settings such as saturation and sharpening and have those defaults applied to every image in every batch automatically.
As with many who use C1 I have to process hundreds of photos at once and I can’t image how much more time will be added to navigate and apply default settings to each and every image.
Oh and one added “feature†that IMHO isn’t a feature at all instead it’s a annoyance is moving the cache to the image folder and not providing the ability to change that location. This new feature has increased the time it takes to do the backup and archive portion of my workflow not to mention calculations for storage media. Over all C1v4 is going to cost me time and money not help me make time and money.
So there you have it. This release of v4 is NOT an upgrade to 3.7LE. If anything it’s a brand bottom tier version that caters to the casual photographer and P&Ser. C1 3.7LE direct upgrade would be a new middle tier release with Pro being the top tier. If this is P)’s intention they need to inform their current customer base before they lose all of us.
Rob0 -
Anyone else getting the sneaky suspicion that all the "missing" features in this version of C1 will show up in the Pro version forcing all us LE users to fork out more money just to recover the lost features?
ABSOLUTELY. Promise the 'free' upgrade to v4 to get people in the door... then offer what they really want in the Pro version. This is the only logical explanation for the fact that this program is so unbelievably less useful.
I also find it amusing that the pictures in the v4 Help file are lame snapshots when Phase One normally uses commercial level photography in all of its marketing and communications. Definitely smells of a different customer base, maybe all the people buying Canon G9s and experimenting with RAW.0 -
Anyone else getting the sneaky suspicion that all the "missing" features in this version of C1 will show up in the Pro version forcing all us LE users to fork out more money just to recover the lost features?
ABSOLUTELY. Promise the 'free' upgrade to v4 to get people in the door... then offer what they really want in the Pro version. This is the only logical explanation for the fact that this program is so unbelievably less useful.
I also find it amusing that the pictures in the v4 Help file are lame snapshots when Phase One normally uses commercial level photography in all of its marketing and communications. Definitely smells of a different customer base, maybe all the people buying Canon G9s and experimenting with RAW.0 -
[quote="rkircher" wrote:
As to missing features. Three come to mind immediately which are huge productivity boosters in my workflow.
1) The ability to move from image to image with the mouse wheel regardless of what window or control has focus.
2) The ability to set a default output folder relative to the originals folder ONCE and never have to think about it again.
3) The ability to set defaults for key settings such as saturation and sharpening and have those defaults applied to every image in every batch automatically.
As with many who use C1 I have to process hundreds of photos at once and I can’t image how much more time will be added to navigate and apply default settings to each and every image.
Oh and one added “feature†that IMHO isn’t a feature at all instead it’s a annoyance is moving the cache to the image folder and not providing the ability to change that location. This new feature has increased the time it takes to do the backup and archive portion of my workflow not to mention calculations for storage media. Over all C1v4 is going to cost me time and money not help me make time and money.
So there you have it. This release of v4 is NOT an upgrade to 3.7LE. If anything it’s a brand bottom tier version that caters to the casual photographer and P&Ser. C1 3.7LE direct upgrade would be a new middle tier release with Pro being the top tier. If this is P)’s intention they need to inform their current customer base before they lose all of us.
Rob
Rob-
EXACTLY.
This version is a neutered puppy compared to 3.7.7. I'd pay $50 to upgrade to a copy where the ONLY thing that they changed was to add a precise independent shadow and highlight exposure control feature. I'll continue to use curve adjustment to get the control I need. What I don't like about C1LE's curve implementation is the high sensitivity to curve shape.0 -
[quote="shewhorn" wrote:
[quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
Ok, i understand that now but this is version 4, not v3.7.x. Its a new program. This happens with most big updates of software as far as i can see.
Happens with most big updates? I challenge you to name 10 pieces of software that REMOVED features with an update. In the past 25 years I personally can't think of one off the top of my head. You see, the word upgrade implies that the upgrade actually ADDS features to the existing library of features. It doesn't imply adding some new features and removing REALLY POPULAR AND IMPORTANT old features.
I was a software engineer myself (lived smack dab in the middle of Silicon Valley) before starting my photography business. Not once was I ever directed to remove a feature from code I'd written. NEVER.
Cheers, Joe
Ok, look. first off i wasn't aware of the missing short cuts so i can understand people not like it. fine, i apologise for any comments concerned with that aspect. PO shouldn't have done it.
But, when i wrote about upgrades/updates above (and maybe i should have been clearer) was that i meant things get moved around in upgrades and you do have to learn a new way of working with them. For me going from word2003 to word 2007 was a nightmare. It didn't mean i couldn't do anything i needed, just that i had to find how.
At my level i find nothing missing from v4 over v3 pro. so im happy.
Guess you and a few others will now have to look elsewhere for a RAW converter. I wish you luck
Dave.0 -
Dave, * Censored- Rules Violation * just remember this is in the clear & the people at P1 are not doing anyone any favours (read you etc), it is why MT and co cleared decks a long time ago, come to think of it, things went downhill fast from there, and now a competitor is real fast with the updates.....wonder why ? 0 -
[quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
For me going from word2003 to word 2007 was a nightmare. It didn't mean i couldn't do anything i needed, just that i had to find how.
At my level i find nothing missing from v4 over v3 pro. so im happy.
Dave.
Dave, you continue to miss the point. Please read all the complaining posts and understand the point being made.
Your Word analogy is totally irrelevant. It's not a case of finding different ways of achieving the same thing, IT'S THAT THE SAME FACILITIES ARE NOT IN V4 COMPARED TO V3. (I have yet to find anything missing in Word 2007 that was in Word 2003.)
If you don't find anything missing from v4 over v3 then you haven't used v3 very much at all!
You are a lone voice, Dave.0 -
Dave is certainly not lone. What i see is a dozen (less or more) frustrated posters that didn't get what they hoped for. In my opinion a beta testing is testing what works well, what goes wrong and what could be improved. It is not dwelling in the past. I have seen some good suggestions being integrated in the new version. Some are for the PRO version and some won't apparantly be in any version. So what! Version 4 certainly has some quirks, but it is not bad for a new program built up anew. It is in no way a downgrade to vs 3. For me the advantages are obvious. I'm verry happy with it. If others are not, let them search elsewhere. And let them stop posting the same message over and over again.
Michel0 -
[quote="mvd" wrote:
Dave is certainly not lone. What i see is a dozen (less or more) frustrated posters that didn't get what they hoped for. In my opinion a beta testing is testing what works well, what goes wrong and what could be improved. It is not dwelling in the past. I have seen some good suggestions being integrated in the new version. Some are for the PRO version and some won't apparantly be in any version. So what! Version 4 certainly has some quirks, but it is not bad for a new program built up anew. It is in no way a downgrade to vs 3. For me the advantages are obvious. I'm verry happy with it. If others are not, let them search elsewhere. And let them stop posting the same message over and over again.
Michel
Michel,
With all due respect you truly don’t know what you’re talking about.
First this is NOT the only forum with people complaining.
Second, to just except the removal of features that not only boost productivity but that you PAID for to begin with is simply foolish. You’re being ripped off. If you can’t see that then you not a very good consumer.
Third, as I posted above, had I done something like this when I developed imaging software I’d have been fired straight away. There’s no way we could get away with REMOVING features paid for by customers WITHOUT a clear explanation and appropriate upgrade plan for those users.
Lastly, Please take some time to re read the complaints and try to understand the impact to those of us using LE for real production work. All the REMOVED feature impact productivity directly. So what if the software looks nicer or does conversion faster if it takes me 2 times as long to use. Its no longer a productivity tool IMO.
And if PO does what I suspect and add all those feature back into the new Pro version and then charge me full or near full price for it then I stand by my words. Bait and Switch. That is simply BAD BUSINESS.
Rob0 -
I think that if you were to give it some thought......LE would have never had some of these "missing" features to begin with. I bet they came with the program as portions that couldn't be easily removed from PRO due to the way the software was put together. What we got was several PRO features at a considerable discount. I can also understand how it can be seen the other way by them. Selling $500 dollar features for $99 doesn't buy a lot of groceries for the employees. So if the LE version never existed, would you have bought PRO?
Since what we are purchasing is the "use" of their software, not the actual software. They can change their software any way they see fit to do, any time they want to, including pricing.
"WITHOUT a clear explanation and appropriate upgrade plan for those users". It's pretty clear to me... If the "missing" features are in PRO. There is your upgrade path.
Support case feature requests are what they ask for. Looks like voting for something that way has the best chance. Assuming it can be added that is.😉0 -
> 2) The ability to set a default output folder relative to the originals folder ONCE and never have to think about it again.
If memory serves, the lack of this way of selecting a default output directory came up at least once in the v4 beta discussion forum.
I'm baffled by this. It isn't uncommon in programs of this type and is a huge time-saver; having to navigate a tree-control to select the output folder is a major nuisance when you have to do it a lot. This has to be a simple thing to implement -- the program already knows where the source files are located. (And anyone who doesn't care to have, say, a ".\\Converted" subdirectory as a default could ignore this kind of option completely.)
As long as we're on the subject of missing features: maybe I've just gone blind but I cannot locate the "Customize" control (for the toolbar) that is shown in the documentation. The docs show a "Customize" icon and a sort of dialog box for customization. Is this feature in fact just not present in "LE"?0 -
[quote="MikeArst" wrote:
As long as we're on the subject of missing features: maybe I've just gone blind but I cannot locate the "Customize" control (for the toolbar) that is shown in the documentation. The docs show a "Customize" icon and a sort of dialog box for customization. Is this feature in fact just not present in "LE"?
No, but it's "MAC only".0 -
Pretty funny that it is a mac only feature. Wasn't this upgrade supposed to give us PC users the SAME features as the Mac version? Another lie by P1. 0 -
[quote="SteveCa" wrote:
I think that if you were to give it some thought......LE would have never had some of these "missing" features to begin with. I bet they came with the program as portions that couldn't be easily removed from PRO due to the way the software was put together. What we got was several PRO features at a considerable discount. I can also understand how it can be seen the other way by them. Selling $500 dollar features for $99 doesn't buy a lot of groceries for the employees. So if the LE version never existed, would you have bought PRO?
Hence the subject of my line. They baited us with these features and now are doing the switch.
[quote="SteveCa" wrote:
Since what we are purchasing is the "use" of their software, not the actual software. They can change their software any way they see fit to do, any time they want to, including pricing.
As can any manufacture of any consumer product but we as consumers have the ability to move onto other products as well. PO’s mistake was not adjusting the software feature set to fit a different market segment, it was passing this version off as an upgrade to LE w/o being upfront with the user.[quote="SteveCa" wrote:
"WITHOUT a clear explanation and appropriate upgrade plan for those users". It's pretty clear to me... If the "missing" features are in PRO. There is your upgrade path.
Had they take an approach like announcing that, “V4 is going to be the new scaled down version with some LE feature absent BUT understanding how important or current install base is to us we plan to offer special discounts to LE users to move to the Pro version of 4,†then we wouldn’t be here right now. Those of us who need these features would happily wait until the Pro version is release and pay a reasonable amount of money for that upgrade.
However, giving me a reduced feature downgrade and then asking me to pay full or near full price for the pro version just so I can recover features I’ve already paid for is completely unacceptable. To make this right they should give me full credit for what I’ve already paid and then offer a discounted upgrade price to the Pro version. Maybe this is exactly what they’ll do but my point above is they’ll be much better served if they’re just up front about it now.
Rob0 -
[quote="dmendlik" wrote:
Pretty funny that it is a mac only feature. Wasn't this upgrade supposed to give us PC users the SAME features as the Mac version? Another lie by P1.
Add to that the fact that we windows user are now saddled with horrible Mac features like Cache files in our image folders.
Rob0 -
> Cache files in our image folders.
I didn't use LE version 3.x enough to have become familiar with it -- how was the cache handled in that version? Were there individual settings files (per-image), or were they stored in a central database of some kind?0 -
[quote="MikeArst" wrote:
Previews and setting files are stored in a central cache (if you want to, you can put it on an external drive). In the preferences you can deterimine wether the files are stored or deleted after a period of your choice. In addition you can store the seeting files in the folder of the raw files (good for back up) or any other folder.
> Cache files in our image folders.Were there individual settings files (per-image), or were they stored in a central database of some kind?
As the preview files are quite big it's useful to delete them periodically but store the setting files together with the raw files.0
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