Writing changes to DNG
Hello,
I am new to C1-4 and exploring features and limitations.
It is clear from this forum that there is no option to have all system files created by C1 centralized in one location - not very good for a software of this caliber .
Now in Camera Raw all the changes/adjustment to a raw file are stored the following way:
* within the DNG file for a DNG
* in a XMP sidecar file for propriatory formats i.e. PEF
Now I understand that C1 use its own format for sidecar files .COS but what about DNG file? Are the changes recorded with the file as per specification/Camera Raw or there is no other way than the Danish way and it is still COS?
Regarding the output to DNG by the description of it in the manual this is just a DNG converter without compression ☹️ is that correct or there is more to it than described.
I like the core of the program and its ease of use for single image adjustment but it seems lacking behind on several "system" feature. Otherwise with correction to this type of shortcoming it would fit very nicely in my Bridge/CS3 workflow.
Thank you.
Cheers,
I am new to C1-4 and exploring features and limitations.
It is clear from this forum that there is no option to have all system files created by C1 centralized in one location - not very good for a software of this caliber .
Now in Camera Raw all the changes/adjustment to a raw file are stored the following way:
* within the DNG file for a DNG
* in a XMP sidecar file for propriatory formats i.e. PEF
Now I understand that C1 use its own format for sidecar files .COS but what about DNG file? Are the changes recorded with the file as per specification/Camera Raw or there is no other way than the Danish way and it is still COS?
Regarding the output to DNG by the description of it in the manual this is just a DNG converter without compression ☹️ is that correct or there is more to it than described.
I like the core of the program and its ease of use for single image adjustment but it seems lacking behind on several "system" feature. Otherwise with correction to this type of shortcoming it would fit very nicely in my Bridge/CS3 workflow.
Thank you.
Cheers,
0
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Hi Ibenac, welcome to the forum and CO4 [quote="lbenac" wrote:
[...]
It is clear from this forum that there is no option to have all system files created by C1 centralized in one location - not very good for a software of this caliber .
Opinions vary widely on that, some like it some don't (in the CO4 Mac forum not a single complaint since it was in CO3 for years). Users who like it do not have the habit to express that. However, a maintenance option is what is missing in software of this caliber IMHO.[quote="lbenac" wrote:
[...]
Now in Camera Raw all the changes/adjustment to a raw file are stored the following way:
* within the DNG file for a DNG
* in a XMP sidecar file for propriatory formats i.e. PEF
Or in the central Camera Raw Database (was CS2's default, where CS3 defaults to sidecar files)[quote="lbenac" wrote:
[...]
Now I understand that C1 use its own format for sidecar files .COS but what about DNG file?
The same. CO4 does not write to DNG due to Phase One's policy not to write to raw file because specifications are often propriety (stay on the safe-side). Could be a nice feature though (as an option) for DNG, but there is a lot of confusion about DNG and only Adobe seems to know it all (how come?).[quote="lbenac" wrote:
[...]
Regarding the output to DNG by the description of it in the manual this is just a DNG converter without compression ☹️ is that correct or there is more to it than described.
Have not used that part a lot. I believe that DNG output (or conversion to DNG) is in its infancies in CO4. Adjustments are not stored either. Just my opinion. I expect developments here.0 -
[quote="Paul Steunebrink" wrote:
Opinions vary widely on that, some like it some don't (in the CO4 Mac forum not a single complaint since it was in CO3 for years). Users who like it do not have the habit to express that. However, a maintenance option is what is missing in software of this caliber IMHO.
Not wanting to flog a dead horse Paul, but Mac owners won't complain because they don't know any different!
I don't think I've seen anyone who prefers having the cache files in a non-central location. That is complete madness, especially with no maintenance option as you pointed out.
However, IMO, it certainly makes perfect sense to have the settings files where they are currently located, i.e. with the images.0 -
[quote="lbenac" wrote:
Regarding the output to DNG by the description of it in the manual this is just a DNG converter without compression ☹️ is that correct or there is more to it than described.
From what I know, the DNG that Capture One outputs is a linear DNG.
That is basically a TIFF file without a Gamma curve applied (that is why it is called linear).
A linear DNG will be quite big, as it is a demosaiced 16bit image.
When you compare the file size to the DNGs that ACR generates, the ACR DNGs seem to be quite small. That is because the ACR DNGs still have the original mosaiced image date in them, and all the changes in ACR are just stored as metadata.
That also means that the changes you have made to that DNG can only be seen in ACR (or LR, as they both use the same engine).
You can't make corrections in ACR, and then work from there in another RAW convertor with DNG support, as it won't be able to read the ACR corrections. You would have to start from scratch.
A linear DNG on the other hand can be worked on with any software that supports DNG.
A lot of people get confused with the difference between mosaiced DNG and linear DNG. I think Adobe should have made different file extensions for these two different types, to make it less confusing.0 -
Thank you all for the replies.
I have read a little bit about linear DNG but could not find a clear cut answer as what is included in the file or not.
The first obvious effect is that by using C1 to output to DNG you are using Phase One's algorithm to de-mosaic the raw data. This should provide a file that already contains color information i.e. pixel instead of sensor sites data? Or is that still only gray level that will be interpreted differently by different softwares able to read linear DNG?
I am assuming that both Adobe Converter or C1's algorithm provide similar results?
Is there any additional information included in terms of WB, color adjustment, geometry,...I am assuming not? As an example I understand from various posts that Dxo will include its geometry and chromatic aberration correction into the linear DNG that is written.
In some way I would like to know where is the starting point when using linear DNG from C1.
On a different tack:
Can jpg preview/thumbnail resulting from adjustments in C1 be included in the DNG file so that photo management software (Bridge or others) can reflect the exact state of the adjusted image?
It would be so great if photo management softwares could read C1 adjusted preview. The browser in C1 is not a substitute to Bridge or any other to say the least.
Cheers,
Luc.0 -
Luc,
Last January there was a thread about DNG, linear and raw, embedded JPEG and XML settings with postings from Ulf Liljegren (Phase One).
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php ... linear+dng
You might find it interesting. To date, CO4 only supports raw DNG, in and out, no linear DNG but this may change in future releases.0 -
Hello Paul,
I see so C1 output a uncompressed Raw DNG only and NOT a Linear DNG.
In essence if I was to input a raw DNG (compressed or not) into C1 and save it as DNG it would output the exact same file minus compression.
It would make more sense to use Adobe DNG Converter for conversion from camera specific raw (PEF, NEF,...) to DNG as you have several options like Compressed Raw DNG and Linear DNG and batch processing.
What is the purpose of having the DNG output in C1?
Thanks.
Luc.[quote="Paul Steunebrink" wrote:
Luc,
Last January there was a thread about DNG, linear and raw, embedded JPEG and XML settings with postings from Ulf Liljegren (Phase One).
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php ... linear+dng
You might find it interesting. To date, CO4 only supports raw DNG, in and out, no linear DNG but this may change in future releases.0 -
Thanks for claring this up, I thought it was a linear DNG. Sorry for the confusion.
Right now, I also don't see the benefit of the DNG output in C1. It would make sense if it would put it's settings into the XMP data and put in a preview jpeg with settings applied.
Right now it is just another way to convert RAW to DNG besides the Adobe converter.
I think this should be made more clear in the help pdf.0 -
[quote="imacken" wrote:
Not wanting to flog a dead horse Paul, but Mac owners won't complain because they don't know any different!
Just as a FYI this is incorrect. Until Capture One 2.9.2 Mac had centralized cache.
Now keep in mind that 2.9.2 was before DSLR support was implemented. And in a studio environment decentralized has it clear advantage when settings will follow the Session. At the same time centralized has it advantage in a one computer setup which is more common with the very small studio / hobbyist setup.
But as Paul says, some form of automated maintenance is what is missing.
It is very easy to do a search on *.COP file and that way delete all previews on the computer but a automation would be nice.0 -
Hello Ulf,
I understand the fine point of your comment but it looks to me like a centralized cache for preview was an option that not only is very welcome but I understand was present in the previous versions. This makes your comment regarding Mac users purely rhetorical to be kind. It would make a lot of sense to restore this option on the current version and give the user the choice in Preferences to use 1) centralized cache or 2)distributed cache - this is done in other program like LR,Bridge/ACR,....
The argument of "we removed this function because it is very easy to do it manually" does not seat very well with me as a new customer unless something was lost in translation. The whole point of having a software like C1 with limited functions is that it will perform these flawlessly and with ultimate ease of use. If tinkering is needed than you are ruining your business model and are failing to differentiate positively your product in its niche - in other marketing words you loose your competitive edge.
On the same topic, it looks incredible to me that the program cannot automatically select the camera's default profile for ALL and ANY file in a folder/batch/import but select only for the first file. It is obviously able to read the EXIF and extract the camera make and model as it does for the first image. Why stop there? From my point of view somebody in the development team has not completed his work - it cannot be a conscious choice by the company to limit this function as is.
Also could you please explain to me what is the use of the output to uncompressed raw DNG (not linear) when a free download like Adobe DNG Converter will do the job better with more options?
These are really my only issues with the software after a few days of first use - the rest looks very straightforward and effective and I really like it.
Moving forward, I do not know when the Pro version will come out and what "real" functionality it will add to this package - i.e. lens corrections (geometry, CA,.., spot healing, for sensor dust,...). I am looking forward to see this BUT if simple issues that make life a lot easier and brings "polish" to C1-4 like the ones above have not been addressed in a reasonable time frame, I am very unlikely to update to the Pro and commit more $$$. I would probably either go back to ACR for my main Raw Converter/Image Processor or look at LR2.0/LightZone/DxO/Silkypix as a viable option. It might not make much difference to the company's bottom line if there is no lasting commitment to the Capture One product line.
C1-4 looks like a good product that needs the finishing touches to make it a great very competitive product. You do not put a bad handle on your favorite tool that you are using daily regardless of how good is the tool, you want to use a good comfortable handle that fit in your hand like a glove to go with.
These are steps that are needed before myself (and I assume others) would commit to an expanded version (Pro) with a higher price but more functionality.
Come on your are 90 or 95% there why stop and give the impression of an incomplete job.
Thank you and I am looking forward for your answer regarding DNG output.
Regards,
Luc.0 -
[quote="lbenac" wrote:
On the same topic, it looks incredible to me that the program cannot automatically select the camera's default profile for ALL and ANY file in a folder/batch/import but select only for the first file.
Either you misunderstand CO4/Win's interface, or I do not understand you in the line above. On opening a raw file in CO4, the programs selects automatically the default profile for that camera model or back.
CO4/Win does not show the camera/model name clearly in the ICC Profile box (in contrast to CO4/Mac). That may lead to the confusion that a Generic profile in general is selected were in reality it is the Brand X Model Y Generic profile.
A popular feature request since CO4 was released is the ability to preset a profile per camera model, if more profiles for a single model are available (either from PO, 3rd party or home made).0 -
Unless I am mistaken from what I have seen on my first try-outs of the product plus a few posts in this forum, this is the behavior I am referring to.
When you import several photos in a folder then open the first photo in this folder, C1-4 will select the default profile for the camera (Generic) or the default DNG profile (Neutral) depending if the file is a PEF or a DNG. It will not select automatically the profile for the second or subsequent photos in the folder when you open them. You have to manually select the profile on these for all the subsequent photos in the folder.
The same also holds true with photos from different cameras in the same folder.
If this is not the normal behavior of the program then I apologize because:
1)I did not understand the manual on this topic
2) I did not understand the posts in this forum on this topic
3) I need to reinstall C1-4 to solve my particular issue
If this is normal behavior than you will have to correct your previous statement and my comments still stand.
Thank you very much for any help you are providing.
Regards,
Luc.[quote="Paul Steunebrink" wrote:
[quote="lbenac" wrote:
On the same topic, it looks incredible to me that the program cannot automatically select the camera's default profile for ALL and ANY file in a folder/batch/import but select only for the first file.
Either you misunderstand CO4/Win's interface, or I do not understand you in the line above. On opening a raw file in CO4, the programs selects automatically the default profile for that camera model or back.
CO4/Win does not show the camera/model name clearly in the ICC Profile box (in contrast to CO4/Mac). That may lead to the confusion that a Generic profile in general is selected were in reality it is the Brand X Model Y Generic profile.
A popular feature request since CO4 was released is the ability to preset a profile per camera model, if more profiles for a single model are available (either from PO, 3rd party or home made).0 -
Just so that people do not get the wrong idea that I have only critics against C1-4. I still like the program and actually found the exposure tool and specially the rotation/crop tool very well implemented and easy to use - the later a lot better than in ACR 4.4.
Cheers,
Luc.0 -
Luc,
I don't have experience with PEF/DNG's from Pentax camera's (to tell you a secret, I collect raw files for testing software purposes), but raw files from different camera manufacturers and their models in a single folder should work without problems. CO4 must/will select the appropriate camera profile for each file separately and independently.0 -
Hello Paul,
Are you saying that C1-4 will select the appropriate profile for each file (not only the first one) automatically without any user input on every file in a same folder?
If that is really the case than things are fine but that is not the way my installation has behaved. I had to select manually the profile for each and every photo on the same folder except the first one as they opened with no profile selected (blank field).
What has gone wrong with my installation?
Thank you.
Regards,
Luc.[quote="Paul Steunebrink" wrote:
Luc,
I don't have experience with PEF/DNG's from Pentax camera's (to tell you a secret, I collect raw files for testing software purposes), but raw files from different camera manufacturers and their models in a single folder should work without problems. CO4 must/will select the appropriate camera profile for each file separately and independently.0 -
Hello Paul,
Based on your information I deleted all files from C1-4 and imported again the raw files. Now the situation is a lot better
The PEF files from my K10D are recognized and C1 use automatically the K10D's profile on all files in the same folder 😄
The PEF files from my K20D need to be converted first to DNG in order to be accepted by C1. These files do not use automatically the DNG neutral profile it has to be entered manually. Same with DNG shot directly in camera or with DNG from the K10D. So it looks like C1-4 does not "recognize" DNG file to the extent of using automatically the DNG profile:(
So all I need now is a profile for the K20D PEF files in the next release!
Big progress thank you for your help.
Regards,
Luc.0 -
Well now I also have presets in the WB mode for PEF files from the K10D. 😄
Before I did not have any other presets than As shot or Custom.
Unfortunately for the DNG it is not he same story - no WB presets. 😡
Would it be possible for somebody to confirm if this is the expected behavior for DNG files:
1) No automatic Selection of the DNG profile (call Neutral)
2) No White Balance presets other than "As shot" and "Custom"
Or if my installation still have a problem.
I realize that DNG implementation in C1-4 might still be immature. At least that allows me to process (if with small limitations) files from my K20D.
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
Luc.0 -
[quote="UlfLiljegren" wrote:
It is very easy to do a search on *.COP file and that way delete all previews on the computer but a automation would be nice.
Ulf.
It's even easier to do the one line batch file that I have posted here several times already.
Call it c1.bat and put in 'del e:\\*.cop /s' where e: is your image drive.
Just run c1 whenever you need to.0
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