CO1 screen preview rendering: Jpeg's not correctly rendered.
Hi there,
A little bit of info to add to my former post "CO1 high quality viewer",.
I was trying to use the CO1 v7 new catalogue feature to view collections of Jpeg images, because iPhoto tends to crush the blacks a bit.
Anyway, I have found that there's hardly any consistency in how different viewers display Jpeg images. I have an image of a highly colorful yellow sunflower field, and it's used as a test image, because it shows how much vibrancy in certain color areas (most noticeably vivid yellow) is lost, when an image is given the sRGB colorspace. Instead of bright and vivid yellow, the sunflowers turn a pale brownish yellow. Apparently a lot of the Raw image is outside of the sRGB colorspace, and there's absolutely no way to restore the look of the yellow after conversion to sRGB.
Now, Capture one renders the preview from raw images according to the profile that is selected in view > proof profile >
default I assume is the output recipe. This raw preview rendering is correct: selecting "embed camera profile", or PropPhoto, displays the vivid yellow exactly the same as Photoshop.
Not so with Jpeg images though! On my Macbook I keep all Jpeg images in the ProPhoto colorspace because of the loss of e.g. vivid yellow, and only convert to sRGB when needed.
Adding the Jpeg sunflower picture to the CO1 catalogue, I noticed that the vivid yellow is lost, so CO1 either defaults to sRGB when viewing Jpeg images or there are other limitations to the colorspace used.
So this effectively makes CO1 useless for Jpeg catalogues for me.
I am amazed by the way how much the sRGB colorspace strips away regarding certain vivid colors from Raw images. Your eyes may get used to it, but even on my high resolution (calibrated) Macbook pro screen (which is supposed to not even be able to show the sRGB space) especially vivid yellow is really way better in the Prophoto color space. Most other colors are not (noticeably) affected, but even so, sunflowers in the ProPhoto colorspace are bright vivid yellow as I saw them for real, but converted to the sRGB space there's too little left to correct for.
Perhaps with the improvement of camera sensors and computer hardware, it's about time for programs to leave the policy of defaulting to sRGB with Jpeg images altogether.
edit: to give some insight into the amount of clipping with sRGB and the other colorspaces here are four versions of the sunflowers with color proofing on in Photoshop. The image is of a Pentax K5IIs with embedded camera profile. Even prophoto clips some of the vivid yellow, but as shown, srgb almost completely strips the yellow away because almost all of it is outside the gamut of the colorspace. Also interesting is to see how proofing with the monitor profiles ( first one made with i1display pro/ basic color) shows, that a macbook pro 2011 high resolution screen can show colors that are well outside of the sRGB colorspace, and the Eizo wide gamut clips more of that particular vivid yellow, which is confirmed when I view the loss of color in conversion on both screens: the difference is most noticeable with the macbook screen.
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/prophotoRgb.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/adobeRgb.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/sRgb.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/monitorprofilemacbookpro.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/monitorProfileEizoCG223w.jpg
Chris
A little bit of info to add to my former post "CO1 high quality viewer",.
I was trying to use the CO1 v7 new catalogue feature to view collections of Jpeg images, because iPhoto tends to crush the blacks a bit.
Anyway, I have found that there's hardly any consistency in how different viewers display Jpeg images. I have an image of a highly colorful yellow sunflower field, and it's used as a test image, because it shows how much vibrancy in certain color areas (most noticeably vivid yellow) is lost, when an image is given the sRGB colorspace. Instead of bright and vivid yellow, the sunflowers turn a pale brownish yellow. Apparently a lot of the Raw image is outside of the sRGB colorspace, and there's absolutely no way to restore the look of the yellow after conversion to sRGB.
Now, Capture one renders the preview from raw images according to the profile that is selected in view > proof profile >
default I assume is the output recipe. This raw preview rendering is correct: selecting "embed camera profile", or PropPhoto, displays the vivid yellow exactly the same as Photoshop.
Not so with Jpeg images though! On my Macbook I keep all Jpeg images in the ProPhoto colorspace because of the loss of e.g. vivid yellow, and only convert to sRGB when needed.
Adding the Jpeg sunflower picture to the CO1 catalogue, I noticed that the vivid yellow is lost, so CO1 either defaults to sRGB when viewing Jpeg images or there are other limitations to the colorspace used.
So this effectively makes CO1 useless for Jpeg catalogues for me.
I am amazed by the way how much the sRGB colorspace strips away regarding certain vivid colors from Raw images. Your eyes may get used to it, but even on my high resolution (calibrated) Macbook pro screen (which is supposed to not even be able to show the sRGB space) especially vivid yellow is really way better in the Prophoto color space. Most other colors are not (noticeably) affected, but even so, sunflowers in the ProPhoto colorspace are bright vivid yellow as I saw them for real, but converted to the sRGB space there's too little left to correct for.
Perhaps with the improvement of camera sensors and computer hardware, it's about time for programs to leave the policy of defaulting to sRGB with Jpeg images altogether.
edit: to give some insight into the amount of clipping with sRGB and the other colorspaces here are four versions of the sunflowers with color proofing on in Photoshop. The image is of a Pentax K5IIs with embedded camera profile. Even prophoto clips some of the vivid yellow, but as shown, srgb almost completely strips the yellow away because almost all of it is outside the gamut of the colorspace. Also interesting is to see how proofing with the monitor profiles ( first one made with i1display pro/ basic color) shows, that a macbook pro 2011 high resolution screen can show colors that are well outside of the sRGB colorspace, and the Eizo wide gamut clips more of that particular vivid yellow, which is confirmed when I view the loss of color in conversion on both screens: the difference is most noticeable with the macbook screen.
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/prophotoRgb.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/adobeRgb.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/sRgb.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/monitorprofilemacbookpro.jpg
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/monitorProfileEizoCG223w.jpg
Chris
0
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Macbook is realy not the tool to be using CO1 on, it works perfectly and I have no such problem on my Macpro. 0 -
[quote="NNN635234536567549613" wrote:
Macbook is realy not the tool to be using CO1 on, it works perfectly and I have no such problem on my Macpro.
CO1 works very nicely with my Macbook pro 2011 with ssd, high resolution screen and external Eizo, that is not the problem.
The problem is that CO1 seems to default to sRGB when viewing Jpeg images, at least it fails to render a Jpeg with the ProPhoto colorspace truthfully, and that is something that even Mac preview or iPhoto can do.
This makes the catalogue function useless for Jpeg libraries.
The sRGB colorspace goes all the way back to CRT monitors, but with the LCD led screens it is simply a handicap, as even my Macbook screen has a color gamut that extends quite a bit beyond the sRGB colorspace, although it is slightly smaller in other parts of the gamut. Especially vivid yellows seem to be a part of the gamut where the screen goes clearly outside the sRGB colorspace. The problem nowadays is seldom the hardware or color management, but for photography it is often the software and the dogged sRGB default.
I will raise a support case to inquire why Jpegs are not properly color managed in CO1.
Chris0 -
I took the monitor profile of the macbook into profile inspector, and this was very informative to me. It exactly showed why I notice the loss of vibrancy in vivid yellows when converting from a large colorspace to sRGB. This makes clear that color management really does work as you would expect it. The colorspace of my macbook monitor extends well beyond sRGB at two parts of the color spectrum, and the most noticeable is the outer corner of vivid yellow. The second screenshot shows that here the monitor gamut even extends beyond Adobe RGB.
This also demonstrates why sRGB is not a very good choice nowadays being designed essentially as a working space for CRT monitors. But I'm not at all sure whether CO1 really defaults to sRGB with Jpegs. I mailed technical support for this issue.
http://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/colorspace_monitorversussrgb.jpghttp://www.standbeeldeninutrecht.nl/gastbestanden/testimage/colorspace_monitorversusAdobergb.jpg0
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