Getting the "right" colors from a Canon EOS
Hello,
I'm a Capture One newbie and I'm having difficulties to get the "right" colours from my Canon EOS 550 RAW files.
The colors look fine when viewed with the Canon Software or even with UFraw.
However in Capture the RAW files with the default settings :
- look way to saturated
- often have too warm tone
- greens look a bit yellow/orange
The jpeg files from the camera look correct (even in C1), that means colors look different form the RAWs in C1. When viewed with the Canon software Jpegs and Raws look more similar to each other.
I know there is no such thing as "right" colors, the thing is the jpeg files (or the raw files in the canon software) usually look correct (colours looks good/realistic) and would only need a few adjustments, so I would like to be able to start working with the same color settings as I get from the jpegs (or from the Canon software). And I find it quite hard to make the required adjustments in C1 to make my RAWS get similar colours to the jpegs.
Am I missing something ?
Is that to do with the default Capture Generic ICC profile for the EOS550D ?
Does anyone have some presets or styles that can help with this issue ?
Thank you.
I'm a Capture One newbie and I'm having difficulties to get the "right" colours from my Canon EOS 550 RAW files.
The colors look fine when viewed with the Canon Software or even with UFraw.
However in Capture the RAW files with the default settings :
- look way to saturated
- often have too warm tone
- greens look a bit yellow/orange
The jpeg files from the camera look correct (even in C1), that means colors look different form the RAWs in C1. When viewed with the Canon software Jpegs and Raws look more similar to each other.
I know there is no such thing as "right" colors, the thing is the jpeg files (or the raw files in the canon software) usually look correct (colours looks good/realistic) and would only need a few adjustments, so I would like to be able to start working with the same color settings as I get from the jpegs (or from the Canon software). And I find it quite hard to make the required adjustments in C1 to make my RAWS get similar colours to the jpegs.
Am I missing something ?
Is that to do with the default Capture Generic ICC profile for the EOS550D ?
Does anyone have some presets or styles that can help with this issue ?
Thank you.
0
-
What ICC profile does CO8 select in Base Charateristics tool for your raw files? Would you be able to share a raw and jpeg file with us? 0 -
The selected ICC profile is "CanonEOS550D-Generic".
You can download 3 pictures were I find the the color shift particularly significant here :
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D ... file%2czip
I have include the RAW files, the jpeg from the camera, and a screenshot from the RAW in Capture One (with the default settings and using the file white balance).0 -
Hi Fred,
Interesting examples.
I think part of what you are seeing is C1 stretching the dynamic range available in the original files and part seems to be related to a different White Balance interpretation. However I do see your point if the result you want is something like the out of camera jpg.
So be honest, as a Canon user myself, I quite like the OOC jpgs .... until I look into them at 100% and then I prefer to process from RAW!
I also note that the Camera Exif tell me the jpg was processed in camera with the Landscape exposure program.
I have a 600D (more or less the same as your 550D I think) and the default settings for the Landscape Program simply add a little sharpness. However for comparative purposes it would be sensible to confirm that the settings in your camera are not doing anything to Contrast, Saturation or Colour Tone.
To quite quickly get much closer to the look that you want you could try a different ICC profile. How well such a substitution will work may depend on the content of the image and what you feel looks right but it might work for you.
I have a 1D III which always seems to give pleasing results so I used that profile and it looked closer to what you might desire. Add in about -25 saturation and it gets quite close for the landscapes but I'm not sure it would be right if there was a significant amount of Red in the shots.
Setting the White Balance to Daylight seemed to help a little too and, to my eyes, tended to improve the shadow areas by making them a little less blue - but that's a personal preference. Trying to set WB using the dropper proved to be challenging although seeing what changes were applied was sometimes a useful guide.
It seems, from a brief experiment, that the approach would most likely work for all the files.
You could also try the 1DS3 and 1DX profiles and the 7D II version 2 of the Generic. In fact any of the others just to see what they do.
I created some variants, ave each a different treatment and put them next to each other in the viewer to make it easy to see the differences.
Also, for completeness, check the settings for your Proof Profile in the view menu to make sure that there is nothing there creating any additional "adjustments".
There are several different approaches that can be taken, one being to simply adjust the colour of the image. (There was a thread on that a few months ago). But starting here may give you a quick way forward with these particular images.
HTH.
Grant0 -
Hi Grant,
Thank you for your feedback.
You're probably rigth about C1 stretching the dynamic range. However I wish it would give us the choice to use to original Canon processing to work from the same colours as with the camera jpegs. Ideally I wish it would also allow us to select one of the Canon styles like we can with the Canon software (but that's about the only thing I like in the Canon software ...).
The sample photos I provided were probably shot with the landscape setting because I usually like the colours it produces (for landscapes). Because actually, as changing this setting in the Canon software shows, this does not only affect the sharpness but also the colors/curves/saturation.
I would expect the RAWs in C1 to look at least a bit like when using the "standard","neutral" or "faithfull" Canon style.
I tried your suggestions to use the profile of other cameras. It's true that the 1D III gives intersting results on the my example files, but as you say it's not appropriate for all shots. I find interesting that they provide severall different profiles for high end cameras, and that theses profiles actually look very different, whereas most low end camera profiles actually seem to be the same. So far however I found the 750/760 profiles seem to provide the most balanced results, closer to the camera jpegs.
Regards,
Fred0 -
Hi Fred,
I think the thing to do is work out your own styles, perhaps getting close to the canon Styles if that is what you like, and then save them ready for easy application.
It may be worth looking at the Styles and Presets provided with C1 to see if any are close to your preferences.
I doubt the Canon styles would work directly since the data interpretation engine is likely to be different but you could perhaps look at the effects they have (in the Canon DPP software) to get some idea of what values they are changing and then discover how to make the same changes in C1.
Personally I just seek my own interpretations. To me that is the reason for shooting in RAW rather than working on establishing preferred settings in camera and going for jpg files. One challenge with the jpgs is that the camera does not always get the White Balance right. Sometimes it is not even close. It is very easy to correct using a RAW file but not so easy using a jpg. Of course it is not just a matter of WB adjustments that leads me to using the RAW files but it is a very strong example of why I am not a great fan of the OoC jpgs.
In most cases a camera has only one profile provided although going back some versions C1 offered multiple options for some high end Pro DSLR cameras to cater for significantly different needs when shooting different subject types. In general the need for such differentiation seems to have faded as camera systems capabilities have advanced.
The Canon 7D was a recent anomaly in that some discussions in the forum led to an alternative profile being provided.
Sony cameras can be exceptions because both Sony Standard interpretations and Capture One interpretations are often available - Capture One being available in specific versions for people who buy Sony cameras with Capture One bundled into the purchase.
HTH.
Grant0 -
Welcome to Capture One...
What you need to do, Fred, is buy a 7D Mk II (not the 7D, Grant - that's got the same profile issue) - that's the only Canon body we've been able to persuade Phase One (and it was an experience like drawing teeth) has a colour problem, which is why it, and no other Canon, comes with two profiles. One as bad as your 550D's, and one which is more or less usable.
I'm being somewhat sarcastic of course, but some of us are just about tapped-out with the effort of trying to convince Phase One that their Canon profiles are broken. We've had innumerable "discussions" - with evidence as compelling as yours - that this overly saturated, overly warm, garishly biased-to-orange cast across every more recent Canon profile is just plain bad, and yet here we are.
Yet again.
As Grant suggests, a workaround (which should be entirely unnecessary) is to use say, the 5D Mk II profile in preference to the 550D profile: if it (or another older profile - the 1D Mk III profile is pretty good) is more to your liking, you can rename a copy of it in the operating system to become the 550D default profile.0 -
Damn, as my 550D died (under heavy rain in Iceland...), I got myself a 70D and still have to very same color/profile issue !
I wonder how Phase one can argue on evidence such as my example shots.
I also wonder how they build these profiles.0 -
Keith,
You are right. I had meant to type "II" but somehow it didn't happen.
For what it's worth the colours presented by conversion of my 600D files seem quite reasonable in most cases.
I see occasional strange colouration in the burnt out areas of some shots but not consistently. For 2 images taken hundredths of a second apart one might exhibit the problem, the other not. But that's about as far as the problems, for my camera bodies, extend. Even then on the 600D and S90 seem to be noticeably affected.
Interestingly I see similar issues using other software as well so I don't think it is a unique challenge for Capture One.
I think the problem that we sometimes face is relatively specific to certain image content. If you often shoot such content it is a consistent problem and a real pain to deal with until you establish how to revise the settings and apply the revisions to those images which are affected. If you don't shoot that type of content often, it isn't a regular problem.
Even then there may well be many people who prefer the "warmer" look. Who knows? I doubt the world and its web has ever posed the question in a usefully analyzable way.
Grant0 -
Yep,
funny you should mention the 70D, Fred.
I own it too, in addition to the 7D Mk II, and during our battles with Phase One over the 7D Mk II profile "fix", I regularly pointed out that Phase One providing a corrected profile for the 7D Mk II (the improvement from which is self-evident proof that we're right about this) does nothing to help - for example - 70D users...
I've said all along that this is a systemic issue with how Phase One profiles more recent cameras (as we've touched on, it does not affect cameras pre the 7D or thereabouts), and that fixing one profile for one camera is a pointless effort which actively ignores the bigger picture here.
Indeed, this is one compelling reason why some of us also continue to run the likes of Lightroom, DxO Optics Pro and Photo Ninja - their profiles don't make every picture look like its lit by the flames from an explosion in a sodium lamp factory...0 -
Hi,
For Information I have noticed that the 750/760D and 7D mkII v2 profiles produce very similar results.
Both work much better than the 550 or 70D profiles (I mean even so the result is not the same as with the cameras Jpegs, colours at least look realistic and the result is usable).0 -
Now that is interesting, Fred - it means that Phase One has silently accepted that there is a problem with its profiling methodology and done something about it, but without telling us. 0 -
Hi Fredj,
"Back to your initial question: Am I missing something ?
Is that to do with the default Capture Generic ICC profile for the EOS550D ?
Does anyone have some presets or styles that can help with this issue ?"
In the tab Base Characteristics using the generic camera profile seems OK, but the film curves (extra shadow, high contrast and film standard), provided by Capture One (which probably work better with Capture One digital backs?... not sure here...) do probably overstretch the range (as mentioned by SFA).
I took a look at one of your raw captures in CO8 and while comparing it with the camera developed JPF, I came up with these settings: http://www.charlesbattaille.be/forum/screenshot01.jpg - I hope you will find this approach of interest to you.
Instead of one of the provided film curves (film standard, extra shadow, high contrast), I use Linear response and then I plot levels and curves as I see fit. Output profile is AdobeRGB (proof profile is "selected recipe"). In the levels tab you can see how I brighten the highlights (without clipping them). I did this for the Red, Green and Blue channel separately, keeping the colours of your camera developed JPG as a reference. After that the shadow and midtones remained a bit dark. That is why I lifted the tone curve a bit at that location - putting two "clamps" on the highlight end in order not to influence those.
Sharpening is "soft image sharpening 1" - Color Balance set at 5000K (your shot value was a bit too warm). Maybe shoot a small neutral reference card on location for white balancing at home. I also added some highlight recovery 30.
Whilst not being 100% identical to your JPG, you will have to admit that this adjustment comes very close. Also notice how the sky retains quite a bit more colour.
Hope this is helpful. Cheers,
Cha0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
Yep,
Indeed, this is one compelling reason why some of us also continue to run the likes of Lightroom, DxO Optics Pro and Photo Ninja - their profiles don't make every picture look like its lit by the flames from an explosion in a sodium lamp factory...
Just like that, I using Lightroom and DxO 95%. I hate C1 bad profiles. I don't never ever upgrade or pay Phase software if this profiles system is not upgraded to better.
I don't care if somebody like brown tinted skin and tell to me "that is good and better looking", it's not to me. I want real color in starting point different light and wb , like lightroom do or dxo.
And what is the point to photograph landscape or bird and you don't know how color looks like in C1, Stupid system I say.
Markku0 -
Hi there
So, the saga of colour issues with C1 and Cannon cameras continues - and now it appears to be infecting some recent Nikon cameras, as reported in similar threads. This is all needlessly depressing. Surely by now Phase One should be prepared to publish an article on how they create colour profiles for C1 and how we users can make best use of them without spending hours fiddling about with the myriad of tweaks that C1 offers?
My approach in recent months has been to reject/ignore all C1 colour presets (generic or otherwise) and use the "No Colour Correction" option in the "Base Characteristics" box. I incorporate this in my own "User Style" that sets the saturation slider on 100%. And that's it - no col.correction and 100% sat. Just two adjustments in one click.
I then use the C1 HDR sliders to raise the shadows and reduce the highlights (as necessary), while keeping an eye on clipping issues. If the highlights are extreme I use the "Curve" tool and reduce the top right value from 255 to 250 using the linear "curve".
To my eyes none of these tweaks affects the base colour tone. If needs be I use "Levels" to separately check each colour (RGB) to see how robust the colour tones are. Usually, any adjustments are minimal. More often than not this image, after processing to a tif, requires very little colour tweaking in PS.
I use a similar workflow with DxO. In general, I find the DxO colour outputs are more representative than C1 of "as is" colour tones.
Of course much hinges on the colour fidelity of the primary starting point - the raw image in the camera. I have given up trying to use "expose to the right" techniques. In my experience with a 7D and a 5D2 the highlight portion of the histogram often extends in a long, off-scale tail, to the right of what the camera is showing me. Moreover, even if detail in the extreme highlights is retained, there is the problem of specular highlights from reflections by foliage leaves, etc. (despite using a polariser). I suspect that when such a raw file is processed the effect of these "spot-speculars" can be to appear to lighten and reduce the saturation in these parts of the image, creating a perceived colour shift towards the red end. Hence a tendency for some software (e.g. C1) to produce output colours that have this kind of yellow/orange tint. DxO does not seem to be prone to this effect.
So now I use "expose to the left" techniques. These include the use of a spot exposure meter to see how its shadow readings compare with the camera's settings, and bracketing. In general I find the camera's histogram to the extreme left is more reliable (with no long tails!) than to the extreme right.
This post is longer than I expected but hopefully it will be a useful contribution for people who are struggling with C1 colours.
Peter Jones0
Post is closed for comments.
Comments
14 comments