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Confusion with Browser/Viewer for newbie from Apeture

NJW
I have been a looooong time Apeture user and am finally licking my wounds and migrating to CO 10 Pro. A little at a time. 🤓 But I am confused about something. I am not sure if I just can't figure it out, or if I have to find a new way of doing things. In Apeture when I loaded new images or reveiwed a library,I would go full screen in the viewer and then just hit my arrow keys and numbers to flip though images and do my first pass at rating and deleting. When I go full screen in CO it would seem to go from browser to viewer, but then I cannot advance through the images with the arrow keys. Thumbnails-even at max-are too small for my eyes to decide if something is heading for the bin. Hitting the number keys is working fine for * ratings.

Is there a method to browse full size images with the arrow keys?
And...is there a "reject" rating? I have found the color tabs and stars. No biggie. I can always use 1* for rejects and then delete them all.

Thanks for any insights...I will keep,, playing, reading and watching tutorials.
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Comments

15 comments

Date Votes
  • Gregory Edge
    I also came to Capture One fro Aperture. The learning curve has been tough. Where Aperture was intuitive CO is not, at least not for me. I have been on CO now for less than a year. I really like the results better but like the organization in Aperture better.

    There is no reject like in Aperture. I just label all my rejects with a 1 and then trash them.

    I have not used full screen so I can't your question.

    If you have not gone to YouTube and subscribed to the Phase One channel, do so ASAP. Whatch the webinar "Getting started in Capture One Pro 10". It really answered a ton of questions for me.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Browsing through images in full screen with cursor keys: Commend + Arrow
    If the browser is visible (can be tiny size) and you have selected an image their you can advance also with Cursor keys even in full screen but it sometimes stops working (i.e. when you use any kind of brush tool) and you have to click again into the browser.

    Rejection: Labeling with color or rating is the easiest. However in order to delete the originals you have to look at these files in one of the catalog collections. I therefore decided to do this step in Photo Mechanics (and FastRawViewer) before importing.

    The transfer from Aperture is not always straightforward and there are several forum topics dealing with it. Looking at these will save you time (and hassle).

    FL
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  • tba
    [quote="FL" wrote:

    If the browser is visible (can be tiny size) and you have selected an image their you can advance also with Cursor keys even in full screen but it sometimes stops working (i.e. when you use any kind of brush tool) and you have to click again into the browser.


    One of my pet peeves, such an incredibly annoying slowdown to the workflow. I often switch between viewer and browser mode and every time I have to mouse click an image to be able to navigate with arrow keys again.

    I raised this as a bug, but Phase One said it's intentional.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Same here. The ticket is still open and I also opened a ticket in beta test.
    I still don't understand why something that sometimes works and sometimes fails is "intentionally".

    Best
    Frank
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  • SFA
    [quote="tba" wrote:
    [quote="FL" wrote:

    If the browser is visible (can be tiny size) and you have selected an image their you can advance also with Cursor keys even in full screen but it sometimes stops working (i.e. when you use any kind of brush tool) and you have to click again into the browser.


    One of my pet peeves, such an incredibly annoying slowdown to the workflow. I often switch between viewer and browser mode and every time I have to mouse click an image to be able to navigate with arrow keys again.

    I raised this as a bug, but Phase One said it's intentional.


    The cursor control keys are active in the tools windows and allow fine adjustments to be made independently from the sliders whilst the tool has cursor focus. (Or at least they are using Windows and I assume there is an equivalent for Mac.) Clicking away from the tool - back in the Viewer area for example - or something similar will usually move the cursor focus from the tool and enable the arrow keys to work as before.

    I would have thought that was quite usual design.

    If you wish to keep the selected tool active but move to the next image Ctrl-Arrow key will allow you to do so on Windows so I assume Command-Arrow will allow the same thing for Mac.


    HTH.


    Grant
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  • SFA
    [quote="Edgephoto" wrote:


    There is no reject like in Aperture. I just label all my rejects with a 1 and then trash them.



    I think the C1 version or reject is the Trash concept. Or invert it and go for Selects to choose the things to be kept and then mass trash what is left.

    This works quite well using sessions. I'm not a catalogue user but I would assume it would be easy enough to try it out on a test catalogue to see if it suits ones purpose.

    That said I also tend to use the 1 star rating for things I am extremely unlikely to want to progress in processing and I don't personally find I need all 5 star ratings for other purposes so not having a 6th rating (reject) is no problem. I used to attempt a fairly complex rating system by stars and colour combinations but decided it really was not necessary - at least for my purposes. Best to keep things as simple as possible.


    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Hi Grant,

    the cursor tools do not for fine adjustment, at least I never go it to work. Advancing images works most of the time (with normal cursor keys) but stops working once you activate the brush on an image. Then one has to click back into the browser to get it back working.
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  • SFA
    [quote="FL" wrote:
    Hi Grant,

    the cursor tools do not for fine adjustment, at least I never go it to work. Advancing images works most of the time (with normal cursor keys) but stops working once you activate the brush on an image. Then one has to click back into the browser to get it back working.


    In that case it must be a Mac system limitation for some reason.


    Grant
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  • peter Frings
    Hi all,

    You can navigate to the next and previous image using the Cmd-Left Arrow or Cmd-Right Arrow key-combo, i.e., press and hold the command key and then type the left or right arrow key. This always works, even when the browser is hidden or not in focus, or when you're editing a value or a text field. Note the you can see these shortcuts in the "Edit" menu: "Select Previous", "Select Next", etc. Also note that you can customise these shortcuts.

    You can only use the arrow keys themselves (without Cmd key) when the browser is visible and has focus (i.e., you need to click in it once). Unfortunately, C1's window theme does not show which panel has focus, so you only know it's not working when you get a beep. This is the reason the arrow keys stop working when you've used the brush: the view panel now has focus.

    BTW, this is not a mac limitation; an application will indeed receive events via the currently focused window or panel, but it can delegate them in any way it wants. So, if the viewer has no own need for those arrow keys, the application could use them for navigation. Unfortunately, C1 doesn't, and it also doesn't indicate which window or panel has the focus.

    As for fine adjustments, you can use the up and down arrow keys when you're inside a value field (e.g., Exposure). Shift-Up and Down changes the value in larger steps. The arrow keys also work when you've selected a point on the curve editor or the point in the color editor (here, C1 shows the control in focus by drawing it in orange).

    For reject, I use the red color tag; I've assigned it to the 'x' key, but you can assign it to the '9' if you want Aperture's shortcuts. Unlike Aperture (and LR), C1 doesn't hide ‘rejected’ images, but I have a filter preset to do that for me. It's OK and it doesn't bother me that much. I also have a smart filter to collect the rejected images in order to delete them all at once.

    HTH,
    Peter.
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  • SFA
    Thanks for that Peter. The 3 key rather than 2 key approach was the missing link.

    I seem to recall that there are some specific differences in the general area of functionality under discussion but I can't recall specifically what they are. (Or maybe were ....)


    Further on the Reject subject.

    I built a catalogue to play with from one of my V10 testing sessions (a somewhat random selection of previously edit images form other sessions.

    Using a session the "Delete" function will, typically place an image file and it's associated files in the Trash folder when deleted. The equivalent of Rejection I would guess. Files can then be recovered from there or the trash can can be emptied.

    The benefit of having a self run Trash can rather than using the system Trash is really to separate the trash for possible recycling purposes. I think it makes sense but others may see things differently - it's always the way with putting ouot the trash!

    There may be a more nuanced approach to that depending on whether the image file referenced is currently within the session folder structure or somewhere else but I'm not certain about that at the moment.

    For a catalogue there is a clear differentiation between Managed and Referenced original images files.

    Referenced files, when a delete request is made, prompt the display of a question about deleting the reference from the library OR the original file from the disk.

    I suspect that a managed file is treated more like a session file and moved to the Catalogue Trash for later cleansing from the system. Is that correct?

    (I don't have a managed file in the catalogue to experiment with at this time.)

    If it is correct then star rating or colour rating would be the logical option along with a smart filter as Peter describes.

    IMO.

    Grant
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  • peter Frings
    Hi Grant,

    Glad you learned about the Cmd-Arrow keys! 😉 But what is "3 key approach"?

    I don't use managed catalogs so I don't know whether the trash behaviour is like that of sessions. In a referenced catalog, I prefer marking the rejects instead of moving them to a trash folder; if I change my mind I can't easily put it back in its original folder. This is not an issue in a session (simple folder structure) or managed catalog (don't care about folder structure).


    The reasons for the 'rejected' smart filter are manyfold:
    1. Deleting an image from within an album simply removes it from that album but not from the catalog. Not what I want.
    2. I usually don't delete the rejects right away but only now and then. The smart albums then nicely shows me the ones to be deleted.
    3.I don't actually delete them using C1: C1 has a serious (and known) issue when deleting referenced files that are located on an external disk: it *moves* them to the user's trash bin on the system disk, in my case my SSD. That's not a problem when you trash a single file, but it's a major hassle when deleting 100s: the move takes a lot of time (GBs!), and worse, it fills my system disk. So instead, I first move the rejects to a ‘trash’ folder on the external disk by dragging them in C1 to that folder and then I remove them from the catalog. I can then use the delete function of the OS, which doesn't move the files, to clean up the ‘trash’ folder. I didn't check whether this issue is solved in v10, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. :-/

    And as usual, this is getting way off-topic 😊

    Grtz,
    Peter.
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  • SFA
    [quote="peter.f" wrote:
    Hi Grant,

    Glad you learned about the Cmd-Arrow keys! 😉 But what is "3 key approach"?

    I don't use managed catalogs so I don't know whether the trash behaviour is like that of sessions. In a referenced catalog, I prefer marking the rejects instead of moving them to a trash folder; if I change my mind I can't easily put it back in its original folder. This is not an issue in a session (simple folder structure) or managed catalog (don't care about folder structure).


    The reasons for the 'rejected' smart filter are manyfold:
    1. Deleting an image from within an album simply removes it from that album but not from the catalog. Not what I want.
    2. I usually don't delete the rejects right away but only now and then. The smart albums then nicely shows me the ones to be deleted.
    3.I don't actually delete them using C1: C1 has a serious (and known) issue when deleting referenced files that are located on an external disk: it *moves* them to the user's trash bin on the system disk, in my case my SSD. That's not a problem when you trash a single file, but it's a major hassle when deleting 100s: the move takes a lot of time (GBs!), and worse, it fills my system disk. So instead, I first move the rejects to a ‘trash’ folder on the external disk by dragging them in C1 to that folder and then I remove them from the catalog. I can then use the delete function of the OS, which doesn't move the files, to clean up the ‘trash’ folder. I didn't check whether this issue is solved in v10, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. :-/

    And as usual, this is getting way off-topic 😊

    Grtz,
    Peter.


    Hi Peter,

    Cmd-Arrow - yep, my speed reading somehow registered that as Cmd+another key+arrow. So 2 Keys just like Windows then.

    For 1.

    As an Album concept is, iirc, a virtual grouping of images there needs to be a way to remove images from it bit not the entire catalogue.

    I seem to recall this has come up in discussions many times and often attracts opposite opinions.

    There is a current thread about unintentionally deleting original images from a referenced location when the intended action was simply to delete the image form the catalogue not the disk.

    C1, on a delete instruction, presents an option box that attempts to explain the options. The default button set is to remove the reference in the catalogue. The Delete option is provided to delete the image as well as the reference - something that if often requested by those who feel no need (to put it mildly) to have their decision questioned by a process that suggests a 2 stage deletion activity.

    If working with a virtual grouping the tag then mass delete option makes more sense, in my opinion, than the introduction of yet more options and questions at the time of deletion that might well be confusing to the unwary or annoying to the seasoned expert.

    For 2.

    Agreed. I don't delete much at all. I probably should delete more. But I work in sessions so any overhead related to the number of images in a catalogue that might influence a desire to keep things neat and tidy just don't apply or at least not in the same way.

    For 3.

    I'm not yet familiar enough with catalogues know what happens in detail.

    For a session there are 2 delete options. One is a direct complete delete for the system. The other uses a "Trash" folder that is not the system trash folder and is in fact a virtual reference so can be any folder anywhere that is accessible at the time you action the delete. That seems to be very much like what you favour as a process and I agree with it.

    Using the Trash folder (either the actual named folder in a basic session folder structure of an alternate location) means all the relevant files (Sessions will have the image file plus other files for edits, previews, etc.) can be moved to a collection folder from where they can be recovered should it be necessary or later mass deleted just like system trash.

    As ever there is always the question with referenced files about whether they exist in other session or catalogues. An extra consideration that could be very complicated to handle in some situations.

    What is puzzling me a little is that you mention the delete process moving files to your system trash folder when someone else posted very recently that they are surprised that C1 DOES NOT USE the system trash "like every other application out there" (or words to that effect if my quote is slightly inaccurate!)

    As you describe for your process I can quite see why C1 might wish to avoid loading the system trash and that separate Trash folder offered in Sessions suggests that has been well considered over the years the product has existed.

    However it seems to me that a Catalogue with referenced files (more so a full DAM application) really needs to offer extremely cautious control over deletion activity since the files in question could conceivably be "in use" by a number of different applications.

    I note that importing a session to a catalogue ignores the session Trash folder. However there is a Catalogue Trash folder listed in the Catalogue Collections. I cannot drag and drop referenced files to it so it seems logical to assume that its functionality is the substantially same as that provided in a session but only for Managed files. For a managed file there are, probably, no significant issues related to shared access from external applications.

    All of this is very helpful when attempting to clarify if and how I might benefit from using a catalogue (or catalogues) for my purposes.


    Thanks.


    Grant
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  • peter Frings
    Hi Grant,

    about 1: I'm not complaining (for once 😉) about how the deletion from an album works; I understand the concept of albums and such quite well. But in a catalog, you simply cannot remove an image from the catalog (with or without removal of the file) when you're in an album: there is no dialog offering you a choice what to do. You can only do that from within the folders, the recent imports, all images or smart folders. Then you get the dialog you're referring to. And as you say, adding a 3rd option in order to support deleting from an album would make that dialog a bit too complex.

    about 2: deleting images is not only to keep the catalog lean, but also to keep the number of files low (OK, disk space is cheap, but still, the files are getting bigger as well). I used to keep all my images, except the really technically bad ones, but then I realised that I never did anything with them. So why keep them? Others may prefer keeping them, just in case...

    about 3: C1 one does move the image to the system trash when you choose to delete them; the dialog box you mentioned before clearly mention this ("Do you want to move the corresponding image file to the System Trash or do you want to keep the file in place?") , and the default button is "Move to trash". So it works "like any other application out there".

    BUT, on the mac every volume (disk) has its own system trash folder. I guess this is so on Windows as well. This is a hidden folder at the root of each volume. So, my internal SSD has a system trash folder, and my external disk where the raw files are stored has its own system trash folder. When you delete a file in the Finder (= Explorer on PC), the system simply moves that file to the trash folder on the _same volume_. As you probably know, moving a file on the same disk doesn't move the bits, it merely updates the bookkeeping of that disk. So, 'deleting' 100 files of 30MB is not a big deal.

    BUT, when you delete a file via C1 (Move to trash), it moves the files to the system trash folder of the _startup disk_. In my case, that is a different disk than the one the file resides on, so that means the the OS must physically copy that file from the external disk (where the raw file is) onto the startup disk. With 100 files of 30MB, that becomes a bigger deal. That is the bug in C1. And that's why I use my slightly convoluted system for deleting images... I'd rather not, but since I always delete many files at once, I have to.


    About possible "in use" use case: you're right, externally referenced files could also be used by another application (e.g., I still have older LR catalogs referring the same master images folder). It is the full responsibility of the user to make sure the references remain intact.
    A managed catalog avoids that problem but it has a few disadvantages. One of them is the size, making it nearly impossible to store a managed catalog on smaller disks (SSD, 500GB).
    A referenced catalog can have its images on an external disk, or more if needed, and still fit on an SSD (I wish they would offer a system to clean up old previews; they take up a lot of disk space as well!). You can even continue to work on the images without those external disks attached. So for me, the choice was obvious.

    Cheers,
    Peter.
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  • SFA
    Hi Peter,

    Ah ha, yes I take your point about where the system trash folders are located and resulting effect.

    Not using delete much that had not occurred to me as an issue.

    Likewise file sizes. In the main my cameras are not producing huge files so I can live with retaining most of them.

    The need for vast amount of storage (and processing power) is something that has always kept me away from video.

    My system has a 512GB (Notional) SSD as the main drive and a 1TB SSD as the second drive. I locate sessions on both drives but the "work" drive is the larger one and I copy entire sessions to 2 backup drives as and when I feel it is necessary to do so. Once a session exists on both external drives (or on the case of the oldest sessions, at least 2 external drives somewhere) I just delete them from the on-board SSD - whichever one has been used. So long as I have the space (or can create it by moving things around) I can always copy an entire session back if I need to. However working speed is still good if I run directly from the external drives - especially the USB3 drives when they are properly up and running.


    The Session Trash file will sit wherever the session sits. So if I open a session from C: it will be on C:, from the second drive it will be there or, should I choose to open on the external drives it will be there.

    However as I recall Empty the Trash folder will empty all available (i.e. currently connected) system trash folders.

    The more I look into this the more I think the best option for me would be to do what I do with a session starting point and then, once the session is pretty much stable and work complete, add it to a catalogue for future recall when required. However I might also just catalogue the outputs since they are likely the file I would want and would also lead back to the main RAWs in their sessions should I wish to go there.

    Or at least that is my theory.

    Thanks for the insights Peter.


    Grant
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  • NJW
    My head hurts... 😊
    Thanks for all the information. I wish I could say this trasnition was going well. I was so happy with my head in the sand using Apeture....until my new 5D M4 and the "file format not supported" message. 😭
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