how to start with out of camera image
Hi, I have been getting some photos that don't look as good as the original out of camera images when opened in Capture One. Normally I like the way pictures look in CO but recently i have been having some that look over processed and over saturated. Of course I have tried just turning down the saturation but still not getting it right. I have tried the different options in Base Characteristics but none of them look right. Is there a way to start with the out of camera image without having the usual pre enhancements?
With thanks!
With thanks!
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There have been quite a lot of discussions about this. If you are using raw files, there is really no such thing as the out of camera image. The file is just a bunch of 1s and 0s recording the values received by the camera's sensor. That has to be interpreted in some way to show it as a picture. All raw processing software does something to the image to give you a starting point that you can adjust from. If you look at the default result you get from various apps, such as Capture One, Lightroom, Affinity Photo, etc, they all look a bit different. On some you might want more saturation and contrast, on others you might want less, for example. The software applies some kind of curve to the file to give you something as a base to work from.
With some apps, you have a choice of what that starting point is. So in Capture One, you have the various base characteristics that you have been trying. In Lightroom, there are various profiles in the camera calibration section. I don't know about some of the other apps.
The nearest thing you have in Capture One to "straight-out-of-the-camera" is the linear response option in base characteristics. It can have its uses, but it almost never yields a picture that you could use without applying quite a lot of adjustments, even with an image that you got pretty much right when you took it, whereas one of the other base characteristics possibly would.
It is quite instructive to get the camera to shoot raw + jpg so that you can compare the out-of-camera jpg with what Capture One does with your raw file. Of course, if you were going to be satisfied with the jpg all the time, you wouldn't be bothering with raw. But nevertheless you could select an image that you were very pleased with before any adjustments - good exposure, correct white balance, etc - and compare the out-of-camera jpg with what you get from Capture One. What do you have to do in Capture One to get it to look like the camera jpg? Do you generally have to increase or decrease saturation, for example, or contrast? And if you look at the features you don't like in the out-of-camera jpg (perhaps too saturated, or not enough contrast?) can you get a result that you prefer by adjusting the raw version?
In my experience, what I get from Capture One looks quite good as a starting point, unless I have got the exposure or the white balance wrong, in which case I definitely need to sort those out first. The starting point it gives may or may not be to your taste. It has taken me a while to learn the lesson that saturation and contrast can go down as well as up, and that rather depends on what kind of effect you want, of course.
Sorry to ramble - I hope it provides some food for thought.
Ian0 -
Thank you,
it good just to know that I wasn't missing anything. For those few pictures that don't look right in CO i found they look fine in the cameras raw processing program which is SilkyPix. Hopefully Capture One can offer a more basic natural looking option like SilkyPics in the future. For the most part though for most images I prefer CO's results....just want CO to offer more diverse alternatives in base characteristics.0 -
[quote="Swift98" wrote:
Thank you,
it good just to know that I wasn't missing anything. For those few pictures that don't look right in CO i found they look fine in the cameras raw processing program which is SilkyPix. Hopefully Capture One can offer a more basic natural looking option like SilkyPics in the future. For the most part though for most images I prefer CO's results....just want CO to offer more diverse alternatives in base characteristics.
You can set the characteristics option to Linear, make your own preferences for a "look" and save it as a style.
The standard options are only suggested starting points form which you can, if you wish, create your own look.
Many people do that.
Grant0 -
A thing to consider, is that the quality of camera support can vary in CO1, because the neccessary generic profiling (which requires Phase one to have the actual camera in house) is not always done to the same standard. In other words: if especially color quality is not as good as it should be, don't go fiddling around yourself too much, but contact Phase one support and provide files showing the issues you have. Another (better) profile can make a world of difference. With a good solid profile to start with (meaning no irrepairable color shifts), you can use the advanced color editor to fine tune and save as a default camera profile.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that the default "film standard", or "auto" film curve in CO1, pulls back the shadows to such an extent, that it blocks up the shadows and creates a much (hotly) debated "garish" look that is a very bad neutral starting point. I never use film standard anymore: todays high resolution digital cameras have fine detail and fine tonal gradations that are totally obscured by the film standard curve and its pulled shadows. I experimented with the linear curve a lot, but only use that for special shots. My preferred option is the extra shadow film curve as a start and use it in tandem with the new very good brightness slider to get a very natural look that preserves all detail in then shadow and mid range.
Should you use the Pentax K1 (which has Silky pix included): thete were some complaints on seceral fora on the color quality in CO1, and it may need proper profiling by Phase one. Some suggested that Phase one used the color profile included in the K1 DNG, but that's speculating. In short: good camera support often needs a v2 generic color profile.
Chris0 -
Thanks for the further info. I will send some samples to Tech since there are definitely some unusual results with some of the images from my Ricoh GRII. I tried the extra shadow film curve with adjustments like you said...not bad 0 -
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
if especially color quality is not as good as it should be, don't go fiddling around yourself too much, but contact Phase one support and provide files showing the issues you have.
Precious little evidence exists to suggest there's any useful mileage in this approach.
It took us - literally - years to persuade Phase One that its Canon 7D profile was broken, and even having (finally, grudgingly, silently) accepted this truth, there are still umpteen Canon profiles with the same problem the 7D profile had...
It shouldn't be necessary, but rolling your own default profile is likely your best option, Swift.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
if especially color quality is not as good as it should be, don't go fiddling around yourself too much, but contact Phase one support and provide files showing the issues you have.
Precious little evidence exists to suggest there's any useful mileage in this approach.
It took us - literally - years to persuade Phase One that its Canon 7D profile was broken, and even having (finally, grudgingly, silently) accepted this truth, there are still umpteen Canon profiles with the same problem the 7D profile had...
It shouldn't be necessary, but rolling your own default profile is likely your best option, Swift.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "broken" profile, but you will see a bias in all raw converters when it comes to vamera color profiles. They can vary hugely across different raw converters, and even "native" converters (supplied with the camera) can get it sorely wrong. I can only speak for the cameras I use (Pentax and Sony), but going back and forth many times, the Capture one profiles are very good.
I din't think you can get around some tweaking in the advanced color editor to get the criticsl color shifts out, but when you do, the results are very good. It takes some getting used to the advanced color editor, but I find it still easier than going the X-rite color checker route in other apps.
A real issue however, is that not all cameras seem to be profiled. There seems to be some copying over (and possible arbitrary tweaking) of color profiles now and then without Phase one being open in their communication about it. In many cases these "fake" profiles will be replaced later on, bit you never know when and if at all...
I read on other fora about people checking profiles on internal naming and gamut shape (I did that once myself), and that reveals some juggling with profiles from one camera to another.
It would be nice if Phase one would be more direct and open regarding the level and quality of camera support, because it fuels the neccessary debate on certain cameras in Capture one.
Bottom line though: I think it is worth going through the effort of getting proper support. Capture one is starting to leave other raw converters behind i.m.o.
Chris0
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