What you see is not what you get
The preview display for C1 4 is nowhere near what is generated and shown in CS3. To match images I have to back off saturation by at least -10. What's going on? C1 Pro is much more accurate, as is ACR. This is a major bug! The program is almost useless if the preview isn't accurate.
What happened to the convenient method of creating a new folder for the output file? When the location button is clicked there is no option for creating a new folder - only the ability to point to a destination folder. Instead I have to go back to the Library, click on the folder I want to put a sub folder in and then create it. Then, I have to click my way back to the directory I was working in. This is VERY inconvenient.
What happened to the convenient method of creating a new folder for the output file? When the location button is clicked there is no option for creating a new folder - only the ability to point to a destination folder. Instead I have to go back to the Library, click on the folder I want to put a sub folder in and then create it. Then, I have to click my way back to the directory I was working in. This is VERY inconvenient.
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Hi Victor,
Check your image at 100% in CO4 and you should find that it matches perfectly with the output. It is possible for some surfaces to appear slightly different than final output due to size compression of the image. This is most commonly seen with fabrics that contain alot of ridges and canvas paintings because each little strand of the material will have a highlight. When viewing the image zoomed out, the highlights tend to get lost making the fabric appear somewhat more saturated.
To create a new folder in the select folder window use the keyboard shortcut: Option+Shift+N0 -
Jon,
Thank you for your reply. However, the image that is in the preview window in C1 4 does not match the processed file regardless of magnification. I have a Gretaq SG chart image that I used to profile my P45 (believe me Phase profiles are tough to beat and I continue to use them exclusively). I can go back and forth between your preview screen and the processed file in CS3 and the difference is dramatic! The C1 4 preview window shows muted colors and a generally desaturated image, which has caused me to make dramatic corrections only to find out that I have way over corrected. Thats because the output file doesn't match the preview window. Try if for yourself...... What is even more interesting is that the images 'measure' the same. Measurements taken in the preview window match the same measurements from the processed file, but they don't look the same!! They don't even remotely look the same! This really is a major flaw.
Thanks for the new folder tip.
Victor0 -
I am seeing the same thing as Victor. It appears to be more of a saturation display difference. I noticed at first that I had to crank the saturation quite a bit higher in this final release as opposed to the Betas and 3.x. I thought you may just have changed the scaling on the saturation slider or something... but when I output them the saturation is showing much higher in photoshop than it looked in C1. 0 -
Darko,
I am amazed that the mainstream doesn't see this. If Adobe had this flaw users would be going nuts!! This may show how insignificant this software has become - a real shame since Phase was the real pioneer in this field.
Way too little, way too late and way too many bugs.
Oh, BTW don't quit the program when you see the progress bar completed. That doesn't mean that the file has been written it only means that the progress bar has completed it visualization. If you immediately quit the program your file will NOT be written and you will wonder what happened. When you fire up C1 4 again it will resume the process of writing the file. I realize that for some users with small files this may not be a problem but for Phase back owners this is a problem. The progress bar should match the writing of the file. Another major flaw!!
Victor0 -
Yeah, I'm surprised as well that more people don't seem to notice it. Although I wonder if it is something specific to a hardware / os setup that we have and perhaps it's not happening to everyone?
I'm usually one to give P1 the benefit of the doubt but right now I'm pretty annoyed. I put in a support case at the same time as replying to your post and got this in response:
"You cant really softproof in 4.0 with color managment applied, as you can in 3.7x ( what the output will look like ) That feature will be in 4.0 PRO."
Umm.. what? Isn't that the entire point of this software that touts it's wonderful color management?! So it's not supposed to show me accurate color? That's only a Pro feature? Huh?
This is especially annoying to me because in one of the 3.x updates they broke this exact same thing and I had to go back and forth with them in a support case, then on the phone until they finally realized they had a bug. You'd think they'd actually listen to me this time instead of giving such a lame response.0 -
[quote="Darko" wrote:
Me I'm running the windows version. Results are dead on match (screenshots of C1 and Photoshop compared on layers in Photoshop - absolutely equivalent).
Yeah, I'm surprised as well that more people don't seem to notice it. Although I wonder if it is something specific to a hardware / os setup that we have and perhaps it's not happening to everyone?
What kind of monitor profile do you use - LUT or matrix?
Which Photoshop Version - CS3?
Sure that it is not an effect of sharpening preview but output without sharpening (just asking ...).0 -
This has nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with monitor profiling or what version of PS you are using. It wouldn't matter if your monitor was completely out of wack.... the preview window in C1 4 should match the processed file on that same wacked out monitor!! Keep the C1 4 preview window open and compare it side by side with the processed file in PS - in other words both programs are open at the same time. Thats the only way to compare the preview window with the processed file.
I am completely profiled all the way to my Canon 8000 printer. I use Profile Maker 5 and am very experienced with creating profiles and calibrating monitors. This has nothing to do with monitor calibration. It has to do with software that has a major flaw. I can't comment on the Windows version since I gave that stuff up a long time ago.
I suggest that you process a file in RD and compare it to the RD preview window. They will be exactly the same. You will also see identical results when the file is processed in ACR. C1 4 is flawed! The software is useless if the preview is inaccurate.
Victor0 -
[quote="VictorB" wrote:
So far so good.
This has nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with monitor profiling or what version of PS you are using. It wouldn't matter if your monitor was completely out of wack
But it could! Photoshop up to Version CS2 is unable to handle LUT-Monitor profiles correct:
And as far as I played around with different types of profiles C1 (V3) was always able to manage LUT-profiles correct.
So if you create a table based monitor profile and use a Photoshop version prior to CS3 this could affect correct CM.0 -
But it could! Photoshop up to Version CS2 is unable to handle LUT-Monitor profiles correct:
This really has nothing to do with the flaw in C1 4. In general if one is using a version of PS prior to CS 3 the inability of PS to handle LUT profiles will be subtle at best and probably not even noticed by even an experienced user. In fact I have a version of CS 2 on this computer and I get the same visual results. The preview window does not match the processed file, and both versions of the processed file are identical regardless of which version of PS is used.
Phase has to know that this is a major flaw and should fix it asap! I'm amazed that this wasn't seen before the release.0 -
I have a partition set aside on my computer to run Tiger. There are various issues with Leopard and there are times when Tiger is needed. I tried C1 4 under Tiger and the results were dramatically different than under Leopard. Images in the preview window are much more accurate when compared to the processed image. Still, not as accurate as RD or ACR but enough so that the program would be very usable. So.... this is a Phase/Leopard issue. Again, I am amazed that Phase has not posted this as a known issue - preview images will not display properly under Leopard. I trust that Phase is feverishly working on a solution.
Victor0 -
Hello,
This seems to be a system/user dependent issue. I can say that on both my Mac (leopard) and PC (XP SP2) systems, color reproduction when viewing both raw and processed files at 100% in CO4 and CS3, the color and saturation is exactly the same.
Now the question is we have to answer is why do some users experience problems, while others do not? The possible issues could include:
-Bad profiles,
-Mismatched profiles,
-Applying a working space in Photoshop that is different from the output profile in CO4
The best way for us to determine if this is a CO bug is to have as much information from users as possible regarding settings, hardware, and profiles in use. Obviously if there is indeed a bug we will fix it.0 -
For once, and I do mean once, I have to side with Phase One in my experience on this. I am on a G5 with a Sony Artisan monitor. My C4 window, capture window, proccessed file window, all match my images in my PSCS2 window. I am only doing this visually by laying one window over the other but I do not see any color/saturation shifts. 0 -
Hey Victor, do you have a dual monitor setup? I just saw this post:
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4931
I use a macbook pro hooked up to a cinema display and the post made me try showing CO4 Preview vs. output in Photoshop on my laptop screen and the colors / saturation match. So it appears to be a problem with CO4's handling of a second monitor profile.0 -
I have been very busy trying to find a solution to this problem. I have a support case and as such have been in communication with support personnel who have the same type of setup that I have and everything seems to be OK on their end - but not on mine!
I have various clones of my operating system. They go all the way back to a naked install of Leopard to one user and then one user with installed programs. I decided to go back to the clone with my major programs installed. There was a beta of C1 4 on that clone that didn't have the display issues that I was experiencing so I decided to install a full copy of C1 4 on that clone. It worked just fine...... for about 5 hours. Then the entire problem came back with very low contrast images being displayed in the preview window of C1 4 and all other raw developer programs working properly. At that point I just decided to open a great bottle of wine and call it a day.
It drove me nuts trying to figure out what was going on...... I could drag the preview screen to my MBP (which is also calibrated) and the preview would change dramatically and more mimicked what a proper preview window should look like. I made screen shots showing C1 4 and C1 3 side by side showing the dramatic differences and sent them to Phase so that they could see that I wasn't just hallucinating. I had created profiles with Gamma 1.8 and at that point C1 4 was pretty much on the money..... but when I switched to Gamma 2.2 C1 4 fell apart. Finally, I just decided to wipe that partition and start from scratch. I even zeroed out that partition.
First I installed Leopard and then got all of the updates. Then, one by one, I installed my major programs, (PS, Acrobat, ProfileMaker, Thunderbird, Firefox, etc.). Then I downloaded and installed all of their updates. Finally, I installed a fresh copy of C1 4 and....... it worked like a charm - and still is (going on 48 hours now). I will never know what caused the anomaly I had but wiping the partition and starting over was the only thing that solved this issue.
I have created new profiles with a gamma of 2.0. These profiles get me slightly closer to the black point of my profiled printer. Colors that appear on my monitor are almost always extremely close (regardless of Gamma) to what comes out of my printer but black point is something that has to be dialed into with profiles that have different gammas.
I don't know what else to say except this has taken a lot of time on my part and my thanks for Phase taking the time to investigate this issue. It still is a real mystery as to why C1 4 was the only affected program. I will report back if things fall apart again.
Victor0 -
Darko,
First of all I don't know anything anymore!! But...... my profiles made with a gamma of 1.8 had everything working properly. C1 4 previews looked just like the processed images, but..... when I changed to gamma 2.2 C1 4 fell apart with washed out colors, low contrast, undersaturated - yet the processed image appeared very much the opposite. I don't know who to point the finger at except that a complete wipe and fresh install has solved, for now, the problem.
Victor0 -
I am using a MacBook with an external 20" monitor. Using C1 4.0 on my external monitor, the colors in C1 view is far away from the processed JPG. Pls see the screenshot attached to this message.
Left side Photoshop window, right side C1 4.0 view.
Using C1 4.0 on the MacBook's internal monitor, everything looks fine. I didn't see this problem with C1 3.x pro.
Regards Volatus
http://www.thomas-maier.net/bilder/C1-4.jpg0 -
This topic is still an issue for me! As long this isn't solved, the product is useless for me. How can I address this to the manufacturer?
HW: MacBook (Intel) 1.83 GHz Intel Core Duo
OS: Mac OS X 10.5.1
Capture One 4.0.14154.14152
Cheers Volatus0 -
We'll, Since I was waiting for about 500 files to process I decided to check out the forum and see what everyone is saying about v4
I have to conquer with the previous post with utilizing the most current version of Photoshop CS3 and Capture1 v4 for Mac (on MacBook Pro running current version of Leopard)
There are slight differences between PS and C1 v4.
Highlights slightly warmer
Skin tone slightly warmer
Final PS file has more artifacting in shadows compared to C1 v4 preview plus slightly different tone in shadow's as well
skin tone shadow area's slightly courser
that's my quick 2 minute review.
As for my background. My job is a Color Analyst so I am living and breathing Color Profiling and Color Matching
What I consider the current the inconsistencies make or break. Not for the light version, but if this is what's expected in the Pro Version I would not find this acceptable.
On a plus side I do find the processing speed as a big plus given the inconsistencies.
As for not everyone having this same problem, Not everyone see's color the same way and to an untrained eye certain item's would look the same, where I would see them being a mile apart0 -
[quote="rdphotog" wrote:
Interessting - thank you!
...
Me (on windows) I do comparsions this way:
1. screenshot of C1 preview (100%)
2. screenshot of PS (100% crop of the 16bit tif, camera profile)
3. new image in PS tagged with profile of the monitor
4. copy both the screenshots in new image and switch them on layers.
(second method: I convert the tif in photoshop from camera profile to the monitor profile and ad the screenshot of C1 preview on a layer).
When I switch layers all the details are the same. So I doubt that I overlook differences.
(By the way: in V3 there are slight differences as the preview in the focus tab has less bit depth as the tif in PS so that the very dark tonal values in the C1 preview don't have the same nuances - but only down from values about L*6 xy ... But I didn't check this in V4 yet).
Wonder that especially MAC produces differences... strange.
Best Regards.0 -
I had some similar issues when using C1 3.7.7. I never did find the root cause, but I had some suspicions. This was on Mac OS X 10.4.11 with an ProMac 3 GHz quad. The problems SEEM to have started when I tried to edit a color style via 3.7.7. There was a button within C1 that opened up the Monitor control panel in OS X. That led to the Colorsync ICC First Aid tool opening up and checking some 1200 ICC profiles (I have no idea how it found so many profiles!). It said a couple hundred had errors and without thinking, I clicked the repair button... DOH! I didn't pay much attention to all the repair messages, but I did remember seeing something D50 and D65 tags. After the Colorsync applet was doing fixing the profiles, the colors were hosed... Re-installing C1 3.7.7 and overwriting all the "fixed" profile took care of the problem.
Another thing I noticed in C1 3.7.7 is that the moire tool zapped most if not all the color data in the affected areas, so the rendered files had next to zippo color (in the moire areas) in the rendered TIFF files. If C1 v4 has some auto moire detection on board, this may be zapping some color. Once I figured out what the moire tool was doing, I realized that I needed to be far, far more specific about when that tool was used.
Lastly, I had some color management issues about 6 months ago where the RAW file appeared to have pure blacks rgb(0,0,0) but the render file looked like a light black. Moving the cursor over the area in question in CS3 still showed rgb(0,0,0). Then I tried used the built-in colorimeter in OS X and it was reading rgb(20,20,20). I knew from that point that blacks were correct in the RAW file and in the processed file, but what was making it to the screen was wrong. That issue came down to calibration settings. Per the calibration software recommendations I was using "Relative Black Point". I changed that setting to "Absolute" and from then on black was black was black at every stage of the work flow.
What I see in C1 v4 versus the processed file is very close, but not 100% identical to rendered file when view in CS3. The processed file tends to have a slightly redder output, so I usually add one more step (-1) to the WB tint (adjust until it looks right, than step the tint one extra step to the green side). Another thing I HATE about C1's preview (I see the same issue in LE, Pro and C1 v4) is all the false color at less than 100% views. When viewing at "fit to screen" there's much more color - alot of this is false color from the onscreen interpolation and possibly because noise reduction isn't factored in yet. Zoom into 100% and then it's a much better indication of what the final output will look like. I have a 30" monitor at 2560x1600; I'm still zooming all over the place to check 100% previews. If Canon get their fit to screen rendering to be color correct, and so can Adobe - then P1 can too. An accurate on screen preview at fit-screen would speed up my "keeper selection" process substation. Clicking on images, check various zones at 100% to see if the edits made at the "fit to screen" are consistent with the 100% view is very, very time consuming.0 -
[quote="VictorB" wrote:
There was a beta of C1 4 on that clone that didn't have the display issues that I was experiencing so I decided to install a full copy of C1 4 on that clone.
I also have to admit, that the display problem (dual display) I mentioned in
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4931
did NOT occur on CO 4 beta 2, but in fact did occur in CO 4 beta 1 in the same way as it does in the final version.
For me this colour output is not acceptable particularily since CO 3.7 gives precisely the same colours in preview as the converted file does in photoshop, it even nearly gives the same colours when running CO 3.7 on the internal MacBook display and PS on the external display!0 -
Hello,
Thanks to a support case from Volatus we have better idea what is actually happening. Basically the problem stems from the screen profile the preview image is generated from. Capture One will create the preview image based on the profile of the primary screen. It is then supposed to adjust for changing screens, however it seems that it does not properly load the secondary monitor profile.
Workaround: Set your external monitor as your primary screen and relaunch CO4 and Photoshop. The processed file and CO4 image at 100% will match. To get your CO4 preview image (at any size) to match, first close CO4, then delete the Proxies folder for the group of images that do not appear correct. This folder is located within the image's folder in CaptureOne/Cache. Relaunch CO4 and new correct previews will be generated.
I have passed this information along to R&D so that a fix can be created.0 -
Thanks very much, I can confirm that deleting the Proxies folder resolved this issue on my computer! 0 -
John
I have the same problem on a MacBook Pro running OS X 10.4.11 and an external Eizo monitor. The Preview and TIFF colours don't match on the external monitor at any magnification but do on the MacBook Pro.
Deleting the proxies doesn't seem to work for me. By primary monitor I presume you mean the one where the toolbar is put in Display Preferences, which is the external monitor.
The only way I can get them to match on the Eizo is to (obviously incorrectly) assign the Eizo profile to the laptop display too, which seems to confirm your theory but not the workround.
Tony May0 -
Hi
Can anyone else tell me whether Jon Gilberts workaround is working for them or if I am the only one who is still suffering with this? The symptoms are as in my post above and exactly as described by hcl in his post here:
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4931
Following Jon's workaround of deleting proxies does not work for me, unless I am also misunderstanding how I should get the external monitor to be the "primary screen" on the Mac (it has the menu bar on it).
In any case wouldn't that just move the problem to the laptop screen? (Although that's a better place for it).
Tony May0 -
[quote="tonymay" wrote:
Hi
Can anyone else tell me whether Jon Gilberts workaround is working for them or if I am the only one who is still suffering with this? The symptoms are as in my post above and exactly as described by hcl in his post here:
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4931
Following Jon's workaround of deleting proxies does not work for me, unless I am also misunderstanding how I should get the external monitor to be the "primary screen" on the Mac (it has the menu bar on it).
In any case wouldn't that just move the problem to the laptop screen? (Although that's a better place for it).
Tony May
Hi Tony,
it is working on my MacBook.
Making your external monitor to your primary screen just close your MacBook while it is running. Your MB should suspend to disk within some seconds. You can wake it up by clicking on your external mouse. Keep your MB closed. Now it wakes up and your external monitor becomes the only and primary monitor. Non you can open your MB again and the internal monitor stays off.
Hope this helped!
Regards Thomas0 -
[quote="JonGilbert" wrote:
Hello,
Thanks to a support case from Volatus we have better idea what is actually happening. Basically the problem stems from the screen profile the preview image is generated from. Capture One will create the preview image based on the profile of the primary screen. It is then supposed to adjust for changing screens, however it seems that it does not properly load the secondary monitor profile.
I have passed this information along to R&D so that a fix can be created.
With great pleasure I read the information that Capture One 4.01 has been released. UNFORTUNATELY this issue has NOT been fixed.0 -
[quote="JonGilbert" wrote:
Hello,
Thanks to a support case from Volatus we have better idea what is actually happening. Basically the problem stems from the screen profile the preview image is generated from. Capture One will create the preview image based on the profile of the primary screen. It is then supposed to adjust for changing screens, however it seems that it does not properly load the secondary monitor profile.
I have passed this information along to R&D so that a fix can be created.
With great pleasure I read the information that Capture One 4.01 has been released. UNFORTUNATELY this issue has NOT been fixed.0 -
[quote="Paul Steunebrink" wrote:
[quote="volatus" wrote:
With great pleasure I read the information that Capture One 4.01 has been released. UNFORTUNATELY this issue has NOT been fixed.
Hi volatus, you probably also read that it is an interim maintenance release and that works PO on many more bugs to fix () .
Thanks for this info Paul!0
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