Your now asking us to upgrade to Capture 21
I’ve been using Capture one since version 12. Capture 12 was great with the Fuji X file format. You then wanted us to update to Capture 20 which I did (a minimal update at best). Your now asking us to upgrade to Capture 21 again, (looks like you will be doing the thing this time next year when version 22 is out). Plus your not telling us what we can expect to see in this update. I think your having a laugh at our expense. I’m using Nikon Z cameras and I cannot see much of a difference between Capture 20 and the new update to Lightroom classic V10 with regard to image quality. So unless there is something that will blow my socks off I can see myself moving back to Lightroom and using Capture 20 just for my old Fuji RAW files.
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Go for it Richard.
At least with an Adobe subscription you do not have to pay for an upgrade, right?
Of course, if you are happy with C1 V20 there is no reason at all to upgrade at this time. You can wait to see if anything that adds value to your requirement appears at some future point.
Just ignore the pre-release offers. Other may find them attractive but if you don't that's perfectly fine. I think C1 is great and no longer use anything else. (for anything that C1 can do.)
I only commit to upgrading to a new release if there is some aspect of it that I find completely compelling as a concept and that I can use to my advantage. At some point in the version development cycle there is usually something that justifies the cost. If I am lucky it coincides with an offer.
My situation is probably helped in several ways by using some older cameras. For one thing I don't have a stack of money tied up in new hardware so the cost of new software to use with the new hardware is not a concern even though it would be a remarkably small percentage of overall costs.
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Pretty much where I'm at. When I bought the perpetual license I didn't realize it meant perpetually in V20 forever. But without information of what they're adding in V21, the pre-release is easy to ignore.
SFA - Do you print? Because I find I still have to print out of Adobe. The other problem for me is that I scan negatives since I still shoot mostly film, which has support in LightRoom. I'd upgrade in heartbeat if they offered a workflow for that without the hokey-pokey steps/tools that others have devised to get mediocre results (in my case anyway) out of C1.
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Hi Chris,
One never knows what the future might produce but I have to observe that started its life as a Digital Camera RAW file converter program with a target to be the best program of its type.
If was somewhat associated with some scanning backs, as I recall, but not really film scanning.
At the time of early digital camera development there were already many programs for Scanners and digital Artwork that had abilities to process images from cameras in various formats but typically jpg will be the more commonly known with huge TIFF files from Scanners for those seeking to discover the extremes of their negative's abilities form whatever film stock they used.
Interpreting data from digital sensors was a less well developed area of opportunity at the tome.
And of course to go with those programs there were a number of well established Digital Asset Management applications for building catalogues and tracking files.
Now you have not indicated whether or not you use the Cultural Heritage version of Capture One but I get the impression that do not. If you did I suspect that you would not be mentioning scanning negatives but rather using a digital camera to create the equivalent of scans which would leave you with a RAW file possibility.
Of course the system is expected to get its results using a Phase Digital Back and thus one would be working with RAW files. (Presumably. Other files types are possible.)
Coming from that background into a market already well served with pixel editors and specialist print programs (remember this was before or about the time that digital small scale printing was common) there was clearly an expectation, also true for many other RAW convertor/editors at the time, that Asset Management, Pixel manipulation on a large scale and Printing were already being served by many vendors and served quite well. So it was unlikely that investing in development to compete with Adobe, etc. would have been the most sensible approach for software initially created to support the Phase families of digital cameras and backs.
I assume you are not working solely with Film scans? If you are, and you are not happy with the results let alone the methods required, then it suggests you may have the wrong software for your needs.
If so the question about perpetual licenses, future releases and special pricing offers on pre-release packages seems to me to be some way down the list of concerns.
Other than Freeware and maybe some enthusiast individuals or small groups who provide software and ask to donations (or similar) I can only think of one company in the photo editing arena that has been supply updates for an extended period (about 3 or 4 years by now I think) while still releasing updates with some new functionality from time to time but without seeking any sort of upgrade fee (so far.)
It's an unusual situation but I think there might be an unusual marketing objective underpinning it.
I really, really do not understand why people have issues with a situation that is entirely normal in the industry - but will probably disappear when all software changes to a rental only basis (Subscription model).
We do not have to upgrade if we feel it is not worth it. We can change our minds later. Maybe several versions later in some cases.
If people want to know what the differences will be, a very reasonable expectation, then either join the beta program to find out what that is all about or just wait for the release when all will be revealed.
If the content does not offer you anything at that point then don't upgrade. You can reconsider later. There may even be special deals later of which you can take advantage. In any case with an existing license for the previous release you should see a discounted purchase price compared to a new license. You might consider that as maintenance charge (as used to be the case not so long back) that also happens to help support the product - supporters, the Knowledge Base library, Webinars, Tutorials, and free technical support when and if you need it. And of course this forum.
It occurs to ma that even when developers publish a list of new development for a next release they may not actually release what is on the list (things can change at the last minute in late testing) and what is described may not be the same as what is delivered. Only at the last decision point will the final content become truly final.
People would then complain about being "sold" something that was not delivered. Not a great result.
I can thing of one business application I am aware of whose management, in quite recent times, pre-announced quite a long list of enhancements for its next release. Half of them (to me the more interesting half) were not present at the point of release and slowly appeared over the next year or so. That happened to coincide with a significant shift towards subscription pricing.
In reality this offer is simply not something to get upset about. Under any circumstances at all.
Those that will upgrade anyway may as well use it.
Those that may decide not to upgrade now or do not want to make a payment at this time can ignore it.
It is that simple.
For what it is worth you can find a complete release history of notable developments here:
Or use the link provided to the Release Notes history for more complete details.
Back around 10 years ago the new release gap was about 18 months but in the past few years, partly to match up with Apple and Microsoft major operating system releases and partly to align with Camera manufacturer typical release patterns (so far as one can judge) the releases have moved to an annual basis.
If you have any interest for knowing the historical schedule of releases there are the usual resources to refer to. Wikipedia seems to offer a a reasonably accurate table.
For some long term users well used to the pattern and the typical new content provided that is enough to allow them to make the decision to take up the advanced purchase deal. Others may choose to wait.
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I think the use of the term "perpetual" is disingenuous. I might have made a different choice if I had known that mean the license was only for the current version. It wasn't clear to me what the cadence was for updates, but I thought when I bought perpetual (with updates) that meant perpetual with updates. Not "perpetual for V20 only."
Earlier this year, I bought a digital camera to facilitate film negative scanning. This was in regards to covid changing my ability to utilize a color darkroom and my concerns about the future of that workflow (I was imagining a move to inkjet printing.) A couple friends of mine that have more experience in the professional space said that Capture One was better for the tethered shooting I would be doing and that the RAW file management was better. So I bought the Sony license and started using Capture One instead of using LightRoom (which I've never used). I am familiar with the Cultural Heritage software from viewing videos on digital scanning. I bought a 4x5 negative carrier from them for my scanning. Sadly, LightRoom has NLP for scanning and C1 only supports such things in the Cultural Heritage software. There's a thread here on the support site where a lot of people have expressed interest and shared tools and workflow that in my experience, are a work in progress. We're not asking for new expertise, but share what already exists in the company.
Some of us who are complaining feel that we just signed up and are now being pinged for another full whack of license money. Not that it matters to you, but a lot of us are struggling with the current economic realities and are trying to figure out how to continue to do our artistic work in an age of reduced income for many of us. But dangling a deal right after I just paid without telling me what the benefit is seems tone deaf at this point in time. Of course I want a deal since my income has been reduced this year. Next year is an uncertainty for many of us.
But yes, you are correct, I may have the wrong software for my needs. I moved to Capture One with the move to digital capture both from the camera and for negative scanning. This whole affair (and your response) has definitely taken the bloom off the rose. It feels right now like I just may have the wrong company. I've signed up for the upcoming Adobe Summit to see if ACR will meet my needs since I don't have familiarity with that but I continue to pay that sub since I'm printing out of Photoshop.
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Chris,
Firstly, for the avoidance of doubt, let me point out that this is, primarily, a User to User forum and, like you, I am simply a Capture One user.
If you are now using a Sony digital camera rather than a traditional scanner AND shooting the scans in RAW (which seems like a good idea to me) then it makes more sense to use software like C1 than it would if, for example, you used a scanner and produced large tiff files.
There certainly are ways of making that work in C1 without CH but people who want to do a lot of negative to positive scanning tend to dislike one or two hoops one needs to consider and, possible, jump through.
But back to the main point of this topic.
With almost zero exceptions that I am aware of the term "Perpetual" in software licensing is clealry going to have limits simply due to technology changes and progress. One way or another it has always been that way for commercial products.
That starts with operating systems which are perpetual and with free updates ... until they are not because support is withdrawn for older products and at some point one will be forced to change or simply stop using them for anything but legacy purposes.
So "perpetual" means that you have the right to use that activation license for as long as you can find hardware on which to run it or as long as you can keep your existing hardware running in a way that is suitable for your purposes.
In the life od a release one gets some problems corrected (that may or may not have been any benefit to you) and, usually, some functionality updates and.or additions without any addition charge. You also get access to the facilities like the Support Pages and this Forum. And free technical support in perpetuity although one might expect that older products may not be so well known in TS terms as the majority of users move on with new releases or simply disappear elsewhere over time.
There is no service fee.
Upgrading, release to release, has for most software developer turned into an annual event since the internet became available as speed and eliminated the need for frozen moments when disks had to be burned, manuals printed and boxed manufactured and packed in order to get product to users.
New versions of just about any established product I can think of have always attracted an upgrade cost. Of some sort. Even in the slower moving enterprise market years ago the typical agreement was that the initial cost of the software would be written off in terms of value" for covering part of an upgrade cost, over 3 years. (Or as part of a %age of list price "Maintenance Contract" paid annually.)
So your license for C1 V20 is something you can use for as long as you have hardware on which you can run it. That's about as perpetual as you can get in the world of computers.
The Subscription alternative allows you to use the software, updates included, for as long as you keep the subscription going.
If, at some point in the future, a point possibly nearer than we might imagine, absolutely everything become "on-line only" there will be no such thing as a perpetual licence without some form of continuing payment. Even one's data could become unavailable if is is all stored only on-line (for the convenience of course as the marketing information will point out.) under a "paid for" storage facility contract.
Apple and Microsoft, 2 examples of many that just happen to be of particular interest to most people working with digital photography, are already some way down the path in the Enterprise market and pushing hard in the personal market as well.
And of course, as you already know from the personal experience described in your final sentence above, one will almost always end up paying for something - parts of an application's functionality or an entire application - that one never (or very rarely) uses.
I have quite a lot of (old) software paid for and never used. Fortunately most things arrived in generous bundles of slightly outdated software at a cost low enough to justify as experiments and discovery. Some will only run on older computers that have become unusable without incurring costs. If I contact the software vendor (assuming they still exist) and ask for a replacement version that runs on my current system I rather doubt they would think I was serious.
Finally, I think most of us are challenged by the current, seemingly global, situation with reduce income and the prospect of further income reductions and higher costs. The annual cost to upgrade C1, should choose to do so, is not really much compared the cost of many other things that provide me with far less usefulness in terms of hours of use and satisfaction from the results. About the same as one meal out for 4 people. Probably a meal that would be spoiled by the current social constraints many of us are forced to accept.
I'll take the software instead and stay at home.
That's just my way of viewing the concept of "perpetual" in the context of software licensing for commercial products. Others may see things differently.
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Blackmagic Design sells you one license for Davinci Resolve and it's good perpetually for version whatever to version whatever. When Resolve 17 comes out I won't have to pay a dime to upgrade.
Just because other software companies abuse language in general doesn't mean that it won't cause confusion when they do. I did say "wasn't clear to me" to qualify my statement. I'm seeing a lot of people new to C1 here and on other forums that made the same mistake I did and are similarly unhappy about it. Mostly because we just bought the app. To my mind, that says that the licensing scheme isn't clear to everyone. If I had understood that in short order that this would happen, I might have chosen the subscription option and this would be a non-event. The other part is the whole "pay now for what's behind door number 21 without seeing what's behind door number 21" song and dance only make things worse.
But these are all marketing complaints about how to deal with new customers, who are the people that are most affected. If I were Phase, I would probably take a look at that since it seems like they've upset a fair amount of new users. For the rest of you that are used to this routine, yes, you get to be the apologists and explainers for the scenario. Sorry about that. I'm not saying that the software is overly expensive for the value you get, just that the structure of the situation feels like bait and switch to us newbies who just joined. I've seen posts like that in a variety of places. However, it is a good sign that C1 is doing something right that there are so many new users signing up. The key to my mind is that a good business model needs to keep retention in mind. People like Apple, Microsoft and Adobe have been at this a very, very long time so they have a built in audience already and a lot of people left Adobe to C1, Affinity, (name alternative here) because of the sub model. Which is the opportunity for others to gain market share.
And I'm glad that you can afford it. For some of us, it's not so simple, hence the stress. I was hoping to dump Adobe because for most editing tasks, I find C1 great. But perhaps it will be C1 that goes. The Summit will help me with that decision as I get experience with LR and ACR. And there are alternative workflows, tools, etc to get the job done one way or another and these are first world problems so it's definitely not the end of the world.
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Good Evening
I read this thread with great interest. I also have fallen foul of this "marketing" and not only believe it is disingenuous as Chris Leutger pointed out, but also quite intentionally deceitful.
Last year I decided to purchase one of the "perpetual" licenses on the recommendation of a friend who has been using Capture One professionally for many years. I also purchased a Black Friday deal, which specifically included 1 FREE upgrade as part of the package.
At the time Capture One were specifically offering to upgrade anyone who purchased a licence to the latest version if it is released within 30-days of purchase. So fully expecting the imminent release of Capture One 12 (v12), I purchased a licence for v11. I expected to be upgraded to v12 under the 30-day upgrade promise, thus saving my “free upgrade” sold to me as part of the deal, for the next version of Capture One (20).
When C1 20 was subsequently released some months later, I was unable to use my free upgrade to upgrade to this version. The option was not available on the website without additional significant outlay, which I assumed must be a fault of the system.
I contacted Capture One and was informed that my “free upgrade” was in fact an upgrade to v12. I informed them that I would have got this anyway, whether a free upgrade was included in the package or not, as per their terms and conditions, so my “free upgrade” should still be extant and be able to be used to upgrade to Capture One 20. I was informed that this was not the case and that I misunderstood what the term “free-upgrade” meant. This annoyed me intensely as I then felt I was lied to at the point of sale and felt I was sold what was indeed a “bait and switch” deal, with no intention of giving the free upgrade at all.
I was then stuck with Capture One 12 with a “perpetual” licence +updates unless I was prepared to pay another licence fee payment to “upgrade” to Capture One 20 (which I was not). It turns out that v12 does NOT support the latest Fuji Cameras (XT4 and X100V) and support will not be enabled, therefore rendering my “Perpetual” licence useless once my current camera bodies have been replaced.
So in another disingenuous move, if you wish to operate the latest camera bodies with Capture One as your primary conversion/editing software, you are left with no choice but to keep paying for the latest version.
I was and still am quite happy to continue using Capture One 12 if it supported all my cameras, which it does not. I see no reason other than this to “upgrade” to Capture One 20, and I see no reason for Capture One not to enable support for the newer cameras other than the ‘planned obsolescence’ model, which I absolutely despise, so they can keep extorting money out of customers. Wanting to pay for the new features of the latest piece of software is one thing, being forced to is quite another.
As it happens, I got a good Black Friday deal this year on an Annual licence, so I can continue to use familiar software with my X100V, but will look to transition to Adobe over the next year. As good as Capture One is, it certainly is not for me if this is the attitude Capture One have towards their customers and I certainly do not think it is worth the full price for the annual licence.
I FULLY agree with Chris that the Blackmagic model is much better and shows respect for customers rather than the contempt shown by Capture One.
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Concur with everything that Gregg and Chris are saying.
I made the mistake of buying v12 in the middle of the year. So at best I got 6 months of "support", because as soon as v13 was released, the standard response to my pleas for support resulted in, and I quote:
"Prior to investigating this bug report further, I'd like you to try installing the latest version of Capture One (13.1) and let us know if you are still experiencing this issue.
This new version contains multiple bug fixes along with some cool new features.
Give it a try and report back to us if you encounter these same issues in the latest update."Howze about that? You need to pay us more money for software in which the issue you are reporting potentially still exists.
Had I paid money to upgrade and experienced the same issue, I would have been absolutely incensed.
The suits who are driving this foo-foo need to come down to reality and smell the roses.
Go read some of the unhappiness on dpreview.
I love what Capture One does for my Fuji raf's. Many other things, not so much...
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It would seem that its not worth updating C1 every year.
I recently pr-ordered v21 but now its been released very much wish I hadn’t. Like many on this forum, I couldn’t find any information about what new features we may expect, but took a gamble and bought it at a discounted price.
There are laughably few new features in this latest release. This is almost certainly the last time I upgrade without first knowing what I’m paying for. C21 is simply not worth it. As the saying goes “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.” I really feel like a sucker for buying into the marketing.
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I've been a C1 one user for a few months, decided to switch because I don't like Adobe's subscription model. I would have expected that recent adopters of C1 to have received a free upgrade as it's a pretty normal practice when purchasing new software, so I am pretty disappointed, particularly so when the upgrade price is nearly the same as the full price. I say full price as in the £200 odd pounds this software is sold at for most of the year, not the £600 they are always claiming it has been reduced from. So, they have lost the opportunity to turn me into a loyal customer and will be switching back to Adobe. At least with Adobe I know where I stand and what is included in an upgrade.
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@Richard Barrett
There is a grace period but it obviously has some limits that you may be outside.
Not sure where you got £600 from unless that included some Styles or you bought into the Enterprise option - but then that's aimed at commercial operations and is managed differently so the comments do not seem to apply.
Knowing what will be around in the future is indeed an interesting idea although may not really matter for most people.
A subscription model implies that one to fund future development (in part) so knowing what is coming could indeed make a subscription acceptable if new features are of high importance to one's work.
I ran a search via Google but so far have not found any information about what will be coming to LightRoom during 2021. Do you have a source for possible insights about LightRoom future development and the features and functions that will be available next year? Does Adobe publish a "road map" anywhere?
I would be grateful for any guidance you can offer.
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