M1 Macs - Pro or Max?
New M1 MacsBook Pros have the option of a M1 Max or M1 Pro processor. The Pro has more GPU cores but as far as I can tell much the same performance from the CPU.
What would be best for Capture One? I guess the Pro is fine but don't some apps (not thinking of video or 3D) use the GPU as well.
On the other hand, can Capture One make use of more cores than already in the 'old' M1?
EDIT: Of course if you want 64 GB RAM, you need the Max, the Pro is up to 32 GB. Do I?
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Well, you have asked this before anyone could possibly have any real world experience with the new Macs. But, since you asked, here is my two cents:
There may be a performance difference between the Pro and Max, but I doubt that it would be very noticeable while using Capture One, if at all. Many programs make use of the graphics cores when coded using Metal. I don’t know if C1 implemented Metal in 21. I think that they said that it was coming at a later release (but, my memory isn’t always reliable).
I am currently running a 2019 MacBook Pro core i9 with 64 GB of RAM and AMD Radeon Pro 5500M. It runs C1 nicely, but I think it would run just as well on 32 GB and, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have spent the extra money for 64, or the 5500M. It’s also not a laptop - it just gets too hot, even running low demand software. I can’t use it in my lap for too long before I’m uncomfortably hot, even using a lap desk.
The Max (or my core i9 / 5500M) are really useful for heavy video work, or gaming (maybe). But C1 isn’t nearly as demanding. Very few applications are. Reports are that C1 runs well on the M1, and they are developing a release for the M1 iPad, so the base M1 is a reasonable choice; the Pro will probably meet the needs of most people for a number of years. The Max is probably overkill for all but the most demanding applications.
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you have asked this before anyone could possibly have any real world experience
I know! I'm assuming the general facts about GPUs will translate to the new processors.
I prefer the 13 (14!) inch MacBook Pro but its punished by Capture One (2018 i7 16GB). Maybe I should be asking how the M1 / Pro / Max compares with the Intel I have now.
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I think the real question that needs answering (and if it has, by all means school me) is this:
How do the new M1 SoC processors will utilize CPU/GPU/RAM... I'm guessing it will be a bit different than modern, Intel processors.
Then, the followup to that is, "How will capture one utilize this new processing power?". During an interview with Capture One a few weeks back, I had the benefit of asking how C1 uses a machine's "power" and it seems to differ for different tasks. I.e. when processing out TIFFs it's utilizing both the GPU (render) and the CPU (pack/compress) in the process whereas when processing JPEGs, it's only using the CPU. When tethering, hard drive speed is the bottleneck and CPU power is the bottleneck for preview generation.
Anyone who has iStat menus knows that Capture seems to never utilize the full potential of the machine. Until this can be addressed and spoken to how it will be addressed for these new machines and new versions of Capture, buying decisions, in my opinion, remain: Buy the best and cry once.
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Assuming Capture One will not provide meaningful Metal support for M1 Macs, does actual experience with any of the M1 based Macs prior to the Mac Book Pro suggest Capture One makes sufficient use of Metal/hardware acceleration on any of the M1 Macs to produce a substantial increase in speed as reflected by import, export and slider bar speed, etc.compared with Intel Macs?
Bottom line: Will Capture One on the M1 Macs put to rest the complaints about sluggishness as display windows size increases or will upgrading to an M1 Mac be disappointing?
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Jerry C says:
Will Capture One on the M1 Macs put to rest the complaints about sluggishness as display windows size increases or will upgrading to an M1 Mac be disappointing?
Its funny how different people report different failings with C1. I don't see this sluggishness. But then again I'm using a 1920 px monitor when not at my 13" MacBook Pro.
What I do have trouble with is C1 "not responding". I have a large (over 150,000) image library but that doesn't bother Lightroom or Photo Mechanic Plus. So moving to another folder of images or doing a wide search is never fun in C1 - for me.
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David says:
I have a large (over 150,000) image library but that doesn't bother Lightroom or Photo Mechanic Plus. So moving to another folder of images or doing a wide search is never fun in C1 - for me.
Release Notes 14.4 says:
Mac
Loading any collection in an already open Catalog is up to 300% faster.
A collection is a folder, Album, or Smart Album, including ‘All Images’, ‘Recent Imports’ etc.
[https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404013148817-Capture-One-21-14-4-0-release-notes ]
David, can you confirm this?
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Jerry, John,
Metal is supported on M1 machines
https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360020418257-Capture-One-21-14-2-0-release-notes
Apple Silicon (M1) and Metal support
Capture One 21 (14.2.0) is natively supported on Apple Silicon (M1) machines. Additionally, Hardware Acceleration on Apple Silicon (M1) machines will run through Metal. Hardware Acceleration on Windows and Intel-based Apple machines still runs through OpenCL.
But there are many steps or functions which use the CPU.
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Release Notes 14.4 says:
Mac
Loading any collection in an already open Catalog is up to 300% faster.
A collection is a folder, Album, or Smart Album, including ‘All Images’, ‘Recent Imports’ etc.
[https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404013148817-Capture-One-21-14-4-0-release-notes ]
David, can you confirm this?
I can't say. I don't use C1 all the time because of the slowness I feel compared to Lightroom. Even if it is 300% faster today, in my mind thats still a lot slower than other apps.
For example, I'm searching 150,000 images for "susan". I know, but its a stress test to make a point. C1 is busy building previews and showing me pictures I know Susan doesn't appear in. And now I have a spinning wheel of death and "application not responding". Meanwhile Lightroom is showing me all the Susan pictures after looking through 250,000. I'm going to say Lightroom is 300% faster here.This is not what I want. I prefer using C1, I like it when it works. But perhaps - even if I ran it on a M1 Max - my user case is just too much for it to cope with.
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@Dave Gordon
I don’t understand the problem? You have two options of software. Clearly one is working better for you. Simply use Lightroom and leave Capture One. As someone who has used capture one for over a decade for my work (I’m a digital tech in the commercial photo industry), the influx of people trying to migrate to C1 and make it Lightroom, when it was never designed to be such, are pulling support away from those of us who have no choice but to use it.
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Kyle,
There is a reason why he has 150k images in C1 and why he asks for the best M1 hardware specifically for the use of C1, wouldn't you agree? Maybe because C1 works better for him regardless of performance?
Even if this thread was about complaining catalog performance in the first place, this would have been a valid thread, and comparisons with peer software, like LR, is legitimate too, and believe me when I say that 150k data records is nothing in a database-driven software, if halfway done right, any query should be executed in a split second. And only then the files necessary for this specific kind of software should be loaded/pre-loaded, and LR is a simple proof that it can be done right.
Pro users or not, the software only continues to live when C1 has sufficient revenue from its user base.
Your advise to buy the best is probably a good one, unless a user is willing to buy the second best as a best bang for the buck (and maybe switch to newer hardware more often, as generations change quickly).
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Kyle,
There is a reason why he has 150k images in C1 and why he asks for the best M1 hardware specifically for the use of C1, wouldn't you agree? Maybe because C1 works better for him regardless of performance?
Even if this thread was about complaining catalog performance in the first place, this would have been a valid thread, and comparisons with peer software, like LR, is legitimate too, and believe me when I say that 150k data records is nothing in a database-driven software, if halfway done right, any query should be executed in a split second. And only then the files necessary for this specific kind of software should be loaded/pre-loaded, and LR is a simple proof that it can be done right.
Pro users or not, the software only continues to live when C1 has sufficient revenue from its user base.
Your advise to buy the best is probably a good one, unless a user is willing to buy the second best as a best bang for the buck (and maybe switch to newer hardware more often, as generations change quickly).
Sure. All valid points. It's why I continue to use Lightroom to manage my and others' archive(s) while also using Capture One (sessions) for shoots when I'm both shooting and teching.As I maintain empathy for the struggles of every end user of Capture One who must deal with the bugs and lack of performance, be they industry professionals who have been with Phase One since the beginning or recent Lightroom emigres, I also maintain frustration as I've watched Capture One's focus shift from those of us who RELY upon it in a high pressure, real-time, on set environment to those who are trying to make it work as a replacement for Lightroom, for whatever reason.I divide my contempt equally between both Capture One as a company for shifting focus based solely on market share and consumer/"professional" end users who came to the Capture One software expecting an Adobe-smooth experience from the jump.I like to think of this analogy: You're a car dealer and you sold a 1974 Porsche 911 Carrera to someone who has only ever owned Honda Accords and they come back bitching because it's not as trouble free as the vehicles they're used to.I'm sure there will be more folks who take issue with my comment and that's fine, but I know I'm not alone (point your attention to the brouhaha after C1 moved the export tab to a more Lightroom-like export dialog).0 -
I'm 100% with you regarding the temporary removal of the processing tools, but also the introduction of the layer changing automatisms which came with the new brush types (as opposed to the previous universal brush type; and they could easily have implemented a layer type specific brush size instead, or just leave it as it was). Both hinder more than they give (me), especially if you use multiple layers or each kind, like a speed and torque limiter in your referenced Porsche and an additional knobs you have to press before changing gears. It is not only the actual time you loose but also the additional strain on the brain especially in a stressy session.
But no one would complain about a LR-like catalog performace I guess...:-)
Anyway, cheers.
Regarding M1, I think I have read in other forum threads that there are people not really satisfied with M1 + C1. I had been working in my job with Macs a few decades ago (and I liked it more than Windows), but then I needed to fully move to Windows, now I'd like to come back to a Mac some time, however I have just last year bought a Dell xps13, and I just needed to repair my desktop (mainboard+cpu), and don't see people cheering about M1 and C1 right now. For both reasons I will keep an observing role for at least another two years or so until I see you Mac guys opening bottles of champaign and doing fireworks...
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Kyle
I don’t understand the problem?
I want to use C1, why is that a problem? ;)
Just so you don't think I'm another Johnny-come-lately Lightroom émigré: I first tried C1 in around 2006 or 07 but in those days there was no metadata support. So for years I used iView Media Pro to catalogue my pictures. Great program until it was sold to Microsoft. I thought it was being saved by Phase One until they killed it. I assumed it was being used in C1 to manage the metadata. When Apple dropped Aperture I tried C1 again, but at the time I felt my Mac wasn't powerful enough. And when I bought a new Mac, I tried again. Which is where we are today. Sure, Lightroom. It works. It works very well. But I don't like it, it has an over complex GUI, duplicate menu items and looks like a dog's dinner. I want to see my pictures, not be distracted by the interface.
I divide my contempt equally between both Capture One as a company for shifting focus based solely on market share and consumer/"professional" end users who came to the Capture One software expecting an Adobe-smooth experience from the jump.
You can't blame the end user for expecting what C1 tells us. But without a mass market C1 will revert to being a specialist medium format solution with a price to reflect that. The only way to keep out the riff-raff is to charge a decent price. Is £3000 rather the £300 is a price you'd pay?
I'm sure there will be more folks who take issue with my comment and that's fine,
They're fair enough, I hear your frustration.
BeO
I have read in other forum threads that there are people not really satisfied with M1 + C1.
Surprised to hear that, maybe I'm listening in the wrong places. My impression from photographers was the M1 was Very Good. So I was expecting the M1 Pro and Max to build on that. And Capture One big get a mention in the Apple event introducing the new processors last week. So you'd kinda think...
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I don't have own experience, guess I am referring to the impression I got from here, and Metal was already supported at that time (starting with 14.2):
https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/4404171047569-Performance-in-iMac-24-M1
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https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/4404171047569-Performance-in-iMac-24-M1
Reading that - and a couple of other threads and article comments - it seems to me C1 is a hopeless case. Many people have many problem and many of those are ongoing. I'm sure there are lots of people using C1 everyday without a problem, but they don't come here and tell us what they're doing differently.
And I get the impression two people with very similar Macs or PC's may have different experiences running C1. Its all very inconsistent.
Like I said before, maybe I'm not a target C1 user. Some here seem to disapprove the type of people - like me - trying to use C1. So I'll make my excuses and leave.
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Jerry C says:
Bottom line: Will Capture One on the M1 Macs put to rest the complaints about sluggishness as display windows size increases or will upgrading to an M1 Mac be disappointing?
This sounds like something my dad would ask. If I were you, I’d let your son buy an M1 Max and have him tell you if it’s worth the upgrade. He probably plans to buy one anyhow.
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Check out this digital tech’s Instagram feed and watch the stories before they expire (maybe too late as capture one has to moderate posts with links).
He puts the new M1 max to the test with a Fuji GFX100
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Good plan. Funny, my son's name is Mike.
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Hello, does anybody has better experiences now if it is worth to buy into M1 Pro or M1 Max to use Capture One? Thanks for any clues.
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Same here, wondering if anyone has updated thoughts on M1 Pro vs. M1 Max (GPU/CPU utilization between the two, battery life, etc).
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