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How much improved is the improved catalog speed? Did C1 became a real DAM?

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21 comments

  • Alexandre Sidorenko

    Hi Lorenz,

    it is somewhat faster than in 21.x (maybe 2x) but still extremely slow. The problem is that while their DB contains all the needed info, they are still scanning the whole directory tree checking whether there were any changes in individual files. Windows provides all necessary APIs to avoid that - instead of checking files individually, you can scan just directories. That is, instead of checking all 'dirname/*' files,  check 'dirname' object only, to see whether there were any changes (and then scan files only if there were any changes as reported by directory object). As far as I understand, this is what is done on Mac. I don't understand why they don't implement the same thing on Windows.

    Or they could at least make such scanning configurable, e.g. add an option to scan all files manually vs automatically. 

    Regards,

    Alex

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  • Lorenz Widmaier

    Hi Alex,

    Thank you for shedding some light on the problem. Daminion only scans the files again upon user request – that should be the same in C1. I would be happy if a C1 engineer could comment on this. It would be awesome if there is hope for Windows too....

    Alex, do you have experience with C1 and large catalogues on a Mac? Does it work smoothly? In fact, my DAM (Daminion) was one out of two programmes that still made the switch to Mac impossible for me...

    All the best
    Lorenz

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    To use C1 as a DAM only makes sense if you use C1 as your raw converter too, imo. How do you develop your raw files now?

    I think it is easier to export jpgs from C1 and use a DAM which support automatic grouping of raw + jpg, ideally the jpg as the group representative, so that you can see the developed jpg first and open C1 with the raw file from the DAM. Whether that is possible with Daminion I have doubts (but probably easier to implement for them than to implement for C1 a DAM en par with Media Pro).

    This having said I don't know about performance on Mac, and I don't have such big catalogs, my perception comes from the people with big catalogs complaining in this forum. But of course knowing that people who don't have problems don't complain here (or seldom post anything), so why don't you give it a try on Windows with the trial version, or on Mac if you happen to have access to one.

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  • ernst.w

    @BeO

    >...and open C1 with the raw file from the DAM

    How do you do this? I can only open the RAW for special exports after having filtered out in C1. And then run into the wellknown performance issue.

    As I can see for years and till now: C1 (Windows versions) gathers all images (or previews and/or metadatas) at least the moment you have to filter "All images" to find the images you were looking for. Even with V21 from latest update on speeding up his is a mess. And my catalogs are not more than 39.000 the biggest one. I would need all images in one catalogs to meet my needs, producing high quality illustrated books and deliver images of different themes - but I cannot do because of slowness even with performant Windows machines. So I have to split up and sometimes I have to search several catalogs to find my images.

    This is the cause to test alternatives - even when I do not get the same output Quality. Beside the performance issue more and more little bugs fiorce me to restart C1 more times a day as should be necessary (and then the gathering of images begins again). It will be a decision between quality and loosing money. At the moment C1 costs me too much worktime (=money) in administrating images.

    1
  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hi ernst.w,

    >...and open C1 with the raw file from the DAM

    How do you do this?

    • If the DAM application supports some kind of "Open with"
    • Or if the DAM application supports drag

    For the drag&drop example: You can open any C1 dummy session which acts as the receiver of the drag&drop action.

    E.g. if you drag several raw files from the Windows Explorer to the browser in a C1 session, an album in the session will be created automatically. This album contains the images (or references to the images) and the famous CaptureOne sidecar folder with cache and settings will be created in the file system.

    You can even drag&drop several images from a C1 catalog browser intto the C1 session, but here you need to drop it into an album.
    If you filter for images which are stored in different locations/folders, even then you can drag&drop into a session album, the CaptureOne sidecar folder will be created for each image folder of the selected images you dragged&dropped.

    I don't use this regularly, so I have no productive experience with it and cannot asses possbile side effects, but I tested it because I also was thinking about an external DAM, if not now then maybe later.

     

     

    1
  • ernst.w

    @BeO

    Thank you. It is a way I Never though about because it cannot use existing session ot catalog.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I would use a temporary session (which I can delete whenever I want and still keep the adjustments in the CaptureOne/Settings .cos files, that's why I tested it. It will work with any session though, and catalog I haven't tested, but maybe more could be possible than we think.

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  • ernst.w

    Basically a nice idea and a maybe useable way for a "normal" photographer. As my images are mostly works of photography, adjustments, retouche and painting there is much work to do for every single one. And I do most of the work with C1 now.

    With temporary sessions I would have to rework all of my work or export every image at the "point of no return" before using it in DAM software. This means more or at least similar worktime than I have to spent now with waiting till C1 is ready to use. 

    Is there any error in reasoning in my thoughts?

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hi Ernst,

    I think there is actually an error in your thoughts, I'm just not sure I completely get your concern, please help me understand.

    What do you mean with "export every image at the "point of no return" before using it in DAM software."

    Can you maybe describe your ideal workflow on a high level?

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Two points:

    1. How to come to the future setup and workflow, including your existing images and adjustments.

    2. What is the future setup and workflow.

    I will first draft an envisioned, future setup and workflow. If that works for you (which also depends on the DAM being capable to do the needful), then I am pretty sure there will be a solution for point 1.

    Envisioned setup and workflow:

     

    • Step 1: Copy your "original" image files to your folder structure
    • Step 2: Make them available in the DAM application, and do your DAM stuff (now or later)
    • Step 3: Select the images you want to edit in C1. Open them in a C1 dummy session
    • Step 4: Adjust your images in C1, the adjustments and masks will be stored automatically
    • Step 5: Trigger a predefined export with a export/process recipe, (e.g. output the jpg or tiff files in the image folder (probably required by the DAM)
    • Step 6: Do the needful to make the jpgs, tiffs etc available in the DAM so that they are grouped with the raw in the DAM
    1
  • ernst.w

    Thank you so much, BeO! I wil think over your suggestions in detail.

    But we should not overtake this thread for my purposes. ;)

    Kind regards
    Ernst

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  • ernst.w

    Hi BeO!

    What do you mean with "export every image at the "point of no return" before using it in DAM software."

    Wrong expression. I meant the point the image is ready for publishing. Not really because there must be made some adjustments before export depending on the media the image shall be used. 

    Can you maybe describe your ideal workflow on a high level?

    At the moment I import images to my catalog(s), rate them, delete what is not good enough or is not needed because of other reasons, give them keywords (hierarchical to speed it up). Then I make my basic adjustments, keystone correction and so on, retouche if needed. Depending on the project now can be that I hand them over to Affinity Photo and go on with painting. After all that the "point of no return" (because now I cannot go back easily) is reached, the image is ready to use.

    Now my customers or publichers come to get images of a special theme (topic), let's say "movement" oder "Yellowstone National Park"...

    After finding matching images customer and I decide which of theese images will be used. Then I do the export depending on the media the images should be published. Web needs other color space compared with book printing (just to give you an example); in many cases the images must be adjusted to matching colors to fit into - let's say - on a double page or a leaf.

    Capture One would fit perfectly for me if there wouldn't be such a bunch of bugs in the Windows version combined with no real support. They let us wait at least a month ("At the moment we are sooo busy, reply could take a while." a read for years.) allways keep there customers busy with a lot of advises ("Create us a video!", "Make a clean install on a new Windows installation." and so on) but give nearly no helpful hints. If Capture One would fix know issues I even could live with awful but real onnecessary performance under windows...

    Kind regards
    Ernst

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I was actually hoping EtMRS would be attracted by the thread title and jump in here, as he has real experience with an external DAM.

    Ernst wrote

    But we should not overtake this thread for my purposes. ;)

    I think the discussion goes beyond Lorenz' question - but is still on topic, provided users are not happy with either the functionality or performance of C1 and though we are discussing alternatives it still includes C1 in the workflow.

     

     

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    EtMRS,

    You posted your last post before me seeing it.

    If you drag&drop from Catalog to session, are adjustments transfered?

    No.

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  • Marcus Schouten

    I don't have a large image library, just 28000 images. I was using version 20 which loads very slow. I installed a trial of version 22 and it is much, much faster.

    You can test it for yourself, you can make a copy of your database and play with the copy, or when you install version 22 and open a database, it will convert it and make a backup copy of the old database. I prefer the first method. Version 22 can be installed alongside a previous Capture One version.

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  • Lorenz Widmaier

    Dear All,

    First of all, I want to say thank you for all your detailed and enlightening answers! 

    Alexandre identified the problem, I guess! It would be really helpful if someone from the C1 engineers could answer to this. Or is nobody from C1 reading the posts in this forum? 

    Can other users here confirm that these performance issues don't exist on a MAC, even with large catalogs (I mean 100.000 images plus)?

    Thank you BeO for showing the DAM + C1 workflow. That's what I'm acutally doing, but life would be so much easier if also the cataloging could be done in C1. By the way, Ernst, if you are looking for a DAM, I can really recommend Daminion (for Windows only). It's not only a perfect piece of software but the support is excellent. If you have a problem, they call you and spend hours to figure it out... 

    But, for now, there seems to be no hope for C1's cataloging function. Thank you all for making that clear, it saved me hours of testing and a lot of frustration. 

    All the best
    Lorenz

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  • Colin

    Another windows user here, on C1 21, with around ~80K images in catalog and absolutely struggling with the inability to practically manage the library. I need to be able to navigate throughout my archive and throw together series of images from disparate time periods very often, as well as just generally utilize keywords and ratings as rapidly as possible. Sessions are out of the question for this reason, but the catalog filters and search parameters are unbelievably slow... I'd love to hear from the C1 team about whether this architectural development is underway or being prioritized as I've gathered that C1 22 did not address these issues.

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  • Lorenz Widmaier

    Hi all,

    I agree with your suggested workflow, EtMRS. But there is one big disadvantage: The DAM software doesn't show the edits you do on RAW files in CaptureOne or in Lightroom. And without seeing theses changes it's sometimes hard to impossible to rate and sort the photographs in the DAM. So it requires a constant switching between the applications. Unless, of course, you export the image as a tiff or jpg and import this image as a second file in the DAM. But this messes up a lot and you loose flexiblity. This is the reason why I would love to have a software which combines a good RAW converter with a good photo management.

    Sadly, this is not the case and Phase One missed this big chance when they decided to let Media Pro die. Media Pro, indeed, reflected the changes to RAW files done in Capture One!

    Lightroom is (for me) also not the solution. I think as a RAW editor Capture One is much better. Further,  Lightroom also becomes very slow with catalogs larger than 100.000 photos. At least, this was the case two or three years ago.

    My solution is also to use C1 as RAW editor (using sessions) and a separate DAM; and to live with the disadvantages. 

    As DAM I want to mention Daminion. I tried many DAMs and really love the clean interface of Daminion and the incredible speed even with catalogs larger than 300.000 photos (probably it remains fast with even larger catalogs but I didn't test it). Further, they have an incredible support. If you have problems they even call you and use TeamViewer to support you. The cost for the Home Server license is around 100 € (including updates for one year, but you can use the software also after one year).

    Finally, I would also be very much interested in an answer from a Capture One technician about this issue. But as far as I see, they don't engange with their community. 

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  • Lorenz Widmaier

    Thanks for the insights Christopher! I tried it on a fast SSD which, of course, doesn't solve the issue. For many operations, C1 searches through all files instead of looking in a database. But these issues were already described above in more detail.

    EtMRS: Why didn't DXO develop a DAM? Because the survey showed that everybody needs it and they were afraid about how to handle this large number of new customers?

    Can you maybe provide more details about support Photo Supreme has for C1 RAW edits? What can it reflect and what not? And, if you're familiar with Photo Supreme, would you recommend it? 

    Yes, aggregating several files together is also something Daminion can do. But when you want to do a quick fix to the photo, it means again switching forth and back between the applications.

    Thanks about being clear to separate photo management software from DAM solutions. Daminion is clearly a DAM but you can use it also as a pure photo managment software without even noticing all the DAM functions. 

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  • Marcus Schouten

    Capture One doesn't alter the original files. I use catalogs in which the metadata are stored. Than I export the files I want to use, RAW or jpg. At that moment, the metadata will be embedded in the exported jpg files. So, if you want metadata in a jpg, you have to export it.

    I don't have any issues applying metadata in Capture One, copy and paste to multiple images works great and fast, 

     

    I use a separate catalog in which I import all exported jpg files. 

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  • Marcus Schouten

    Maybe I used the wrong words. Capture One either keeps the metadata in a sidecar file or in the catalog. It doesn't touch the original files, RAW or jpg. Once you develop the RAW files and the jpg files, the metadata will be embedded in the newly created (jpg) files. I add location data, copyright info and keywords in Capture One. It works well. 

    To embed metadata in the developed (exported) file, you must enable this option in the recipe settings, otherwise they wont be embedded in the newly created files.

    -1

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