Switching from Lightroom
I'm beginning to think that the attempt to switch from Lightroom was perhaps not such a good idea. 1) with the broken keystone function (simultaneous vertical and horizontal adjustments), some adjustments need to be done outside of Capture One anyway. 2) with the missing adjustment masks issue, working in Capture One is more or less pointless as many adjustments will be lost after the program has been closed. Capture One has been aware of the keystone issue for at least 7 months, and there's no indication that they're doing anything about it. They've known about adjustment mask issue for at least 3 months, and while it hasn't been fixed yet, at least it looks like they're trying. And on top of this there's the, mildly put, uneven customer support, evasive response to support requests, etc.
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When I moved to CO, that was with v. 5 or 6, I was already working in session
mode. CO delivered then features and qualities that confirmed me in my move.
Growing up to 7, then 8, and up to 12, I had a very pleasant experience with it.
Then came 20 with new features — that sounded cool — … and the new icon.
I changed it back to what it was. :) I am a user photographer and not an app de-
signer / developer. Things that were working well don't anymore; things that are
new features are not working well yet.
I notice way more little things that are frustrating but I am still hopeful. Still.0 -
While the adjustment mask issue was introduced with a version 20 update, and hopefully will be fixed within a few months, if not sooner, I suspect that simultaneous vertical and horizontal keystone adjustment has never actually worked as it's supposed to. As I understand from support it isn't just a bug, but a more fundamental problem.
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Nikon Shooter.
As a Windows (7) user and also a long time C1 user from the 5 and 6 version era I agree with your historic observations until we get to V20. At this point my experience has been much the same as before - generally good and improved functionality with the odd glitch that, for me at least, is rarely a significant issue and never has been (yet) something that stops me working with C1.
For most of the time I have been using the same cameras. Also the same notebook computer configuration since 2013.
The one functional glitch I do have is, I think, Windows related. I first saw it after a windows update back in V11/V12 testing times. I deleted one specific WIn 7 update and the problem disappeared. Later, near Win 7 end of life I re-applied all available updates not previously applied, forgetting that I had deliberately avoided on of the them for a your or more, and the problem reappeared. As I can't remember which was the offending update, could not easily work out which it was from the update history and had also discovered 2 ways around the problem (not perfect but work) I was less concerned about tracking down a full solution. The problem appeared in V20 beta testing but reappeared in V12 at the same time so I suspect some MS initiated problem rather than a C1 problem.
Given the challenges that MS, Apple and more recently Adobe and others seem to be having developing and delivering reliable updates at quite basic operating functionality levels it's hardly surprising, in my opinion, that developers surfing in the back of those core products are likely to have problems as "agile" development becomes more and more complex with many "players" in the game.
I wonder how long it will be before the computer world adopts the smart phone strategy of simply dropping all support for an application and refusing to instal it if an older phone is running a version of its operating system more than abut 3 years old?
I would guess that when a new app starts development (or components of it) the developers ignore any attempt to support any version of the OS involved that is older than the most recent release. Presumably using only a release with the latest and greatest features make their job easier.
So anyone with a phone older that 3 years is very likely to find that when their Bank releases a new feature filled version of thier mobile banking offering the customer will have to get a new phone before they can use it. No chance to use the old version, the web site will no longer support it.
That's just one example. Couriers are another. Our brave new world relies more than ever on the Amazon model and tracking deliveries. Every time a courier company updates their application for some reason that is often not very beneficial to the customers it only seem to run in the newest phones.
Even greater "genius" comes from the Covid-19 contact tracking apps which also see to be developed only for use with the latest version of operating systems as far as mobile devices are concerned. Brilliant! Should the entire population also be given a new phone and therefore give the application some real purpose and a chance of being useful?
I don't think we have to dig very deep to see a similar, if slightly slower, trend with Apple and Microsoft and all of the hardware manufacturers who make equipment that uses their operating systems and utilities.
It must be a big challenge to try and second guess which technology announcements will become "real" and then be widely adopted. Adoption does not always follow on from availability.
Also just to try to keep up with the vast number of changes and continuous nature of their delivery throughout the industry.
That things are not always delivered in an ideal state is no longer a surprise to me. In fact, compared to the days when one could totally control a software product and heavily influence the hardware platform on which it was to be installed, the challenges are more complex. Back in time it took an enormous amount of effort to attempt to deliver perfection. Now it is likely it would take even more. I ask myself if I would be able to justify the costs such an attempt would incur. I doubt that I could.
As for the smartphone analogy ... even if they were free would it be acceptable to be manufacturing several billion smart phones every year knowing that they will need to be sent to landfill after 3 years? I'm sure Apple would be delighted but would anyone else? Is that the way things will move with computers as well? And software via the "subscription" model?
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I think the "release now, test later" mentality is the whole problem with software these days. If you're going to write professional apps for the Mac, there are certain legacy expectations regarding stability and longevity that you have to meet. Apple itself has tried to bend this rule and felt the heat from their base. Those people are quite different from iPhone users. You can't get away with the same shenanigans.
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"I think the "release now, test later" mentality is the whole problem with software these days."
This may explain some of the issues with Capture One, but it doesn't explain the keystone issue, for instance, neither does it explain the lack of support for widely used lenses nor the somewhat unsatisfactory customer support. Through the years I've used Lightroom, I don't remember having the same amount of trouble as I've had as a Capture One user since January. (And let me just add that I'm no fan of Adobe.)
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— (And let me just add that I'm no fan of Adobe.)
Me neither, Thomas.
The idea to pull back from cryogenic torpor that retired
CS6 Master Collection brings nightmares in my life.
That's why I remain hopeful with CO and loyal to Serif's
Affinity Suite.1 -
If you are moving from LR to C1...and not having a good experience.
You might look into a trial of On1 RAW....it is much more similar to LR, but has some great functionality, with layers, luminance masking, etc
I"m debating between the two myself right now.
C
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@cayenne – Thanks for the tip. As I've already bought Capture One and have an Adobe subscription (which I also need for InDesign and Acrobat), I reckon I'll stick with one of them. I'm not that dissatisfied with Lightroom, I just found that Capture One had a number of advantages. But with the current disadvantages, such as losing adjustments when closing the program and the broken keystone function, it isn't much of an alternative.
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@Thomas...I hear ya.
I dropped Adobe like a hot rock when they went to the "rental"mode.
I might suggest you take a look with free trials to the Seriff offerings:
Affinity PHoto
Affinity Designer
Affinity Publisher.
Those might be enough to get you off the Adobe perpetual rental train.
I started o On1 for the LR replacement and liked it. But when I recently got a Fuji GFX 100, I found On1 could not tether and do live view.
I tried C1 and was impressed and figured I might move to it. I bought the Full version.
But since purchasing, I'm running into more and more idiosyncrasies with it as I dig further and further in using it.
I'm sad, that I do like the controls it uses....and I've found GREAT YouTube videos explaining in depth as to what parts of the image spectrum each of the adjustment tools affects and I am really understanding more and more what sliders to use for exactly what I want to adjust.
I never fully understand this as well in LR or On1.
But I'm running into more and more things that aren't working for me.
And the fact that C1 makes things a bit more of a PITA to roundtrip, by having to re-import images put into directories it already knows about.
I like that in On1...if you tell it a directory is part of your "library" it auto finds images as you put them in there or remove them externally....
Anyway, I love a lot about C1 and I've bought it and am now trying to decide exactly where it fits in my workflow.
I'll use it for sure for tethering, but I am debating if it will be my DAM tool of choice.
I do read that C1 handles Fuji files better than most other and so far I DO like what it outputs...so, if nothing else I may only use it for tethering and initial development of my fuji files.....but time will tell.
Good luck and do give those other tools I suggested a look. They really are al on par with Adobe offerings...and much cheaper and not rental.
C
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I echo the above. I switched from Aperture to LR, and back to Aperture until its sunset, and then stuck with it a few more years until I had to decide between it and OS updates. Then I switched to C1, which blew me away with its editing feature set and color accuracy (which was better in 12 than 20 for skin tones).
But right away I missed the incredible power of Aperture's DAM workflow. It was nearly perfect. C1 has all sorts of half baked ideas and quirky functions that reek of "designed by engineers" development issues. C1 is one of those applications that tries to please everyone and winds up a confusing mess. Files becoming disconnected and unable to reconnect is a real show stopper.
At least printing is fixed. That only took a few years.
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"right away I missed the incredible power of Aperture's DAM workflow"
That's another thing that makes switching completely to Capture One difficult.
"At least printing is fixed. That only took a few years."
I didn't know about this; doesn't bode well for the current issues.
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To be fair, printing was never so great in Aperture either, so I already had a PS printing workflow going at the time and just continued it. My last exhibition I was able to print completely from C1, which was good timing as I had just switched from PS to Affinity, whose print settings were very basic in the beginning.
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Just to sum up. My main point here/above is that Capture One hasn't been in a useable state for three months, and before that it was only partly useable.
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Rob : "To be fair, printing was never so great in Aperture either, so I already had a PS printing workflow going at the time and just continued it. My last exhibition I was able to print completely from C1..."
I am very happy with that ! I had claims every year asking for an improvement of the printing. I just have to try now !
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considering how long c1 is already on the market it still has a very small user base even among professionals. one of the reasons I think is that when they opened the software for others they limited support to keep some advantage for their own hardware and they are doing this till now even with brand dedicated versions. this was the wrong signal for their loyal pro user so to sell more copies they had to look closer what amateurs wanted and a DAM got high priority even when they already owned a very good DAM. so instead of improving image related things and looking simply for better integration with the DAM they spent years making their "catalog" work and they lost all of the advantage they had but more important they now cared more about the announcement of features than the quality or usability. so over they years the list of problems grew while usability became more and more an issue. this is what we experience today and the outlook is not good, they are no innovators and they missed a lot of chances in this fast changing industry.
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I also went from Aperture to Light Room to Capture One.
I have been using Capture One for almost 2 years.
It’s not perfect. I think they need to do a better job with DAM. that was my big issue with the program when I first started to use it. Going trom LR to C1 was a huge learning curve. I think you have more tools at your disposal with C1 than LR. I this week installed LR and used it for the first time in 2 years and LR Classic is on life support while Adobe forces the new LR Cloud. 2 years ago LR Cloud was a hot mess. I have not tried it since.
I love the way C1 renders raw images much better to me than LR.
Usually in the Nov / Dec time frame a new version of C1 is released. Hopefully they will fix the bugs introduced in C1 20 and looking forward to seeing what’s in store.
I just switched my license from C1 Pro to C1 Nikon, which brings C1 down in the same price range as Adobe Photo subscription .
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After months with the missing adjustment masks issue rendering Capture One unusable, and still no solution in sight, I find it difficult to retain any trust in neither the company nor the software.
There may be a new version at the end of the year, meaning that you would be expected to pay to have the program fixed after it's been unusable for half a year. With no guarantee that you won't run into similar issues, which again may take half a year to fix. For which you'll then be required to pay once more, etc.
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@ Thomas - totally agree !
rule No 1 don´t expect anything from this company otherwise you will get frustrated.
the next version will be a test for me if it is worth to deal with all the annoyances or if I stop using it. right now I prefer c1 over adobe but more for workflow reasons than images quality. what I also see as a very bad sign for the future is that they seem not to work on software for iPads or other mobile devices, even hasselblad is more creative and advanced.
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For now, I've gone back to Lightroom and have more or less resigned myself to regarding my attempt to switch to Capture One as a mistake. Though I'm still somewhat frustrated and upset about the amount of time I've wasted on the numerous issues with Capture One, communicating with support, etc.
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@CSP wrote "considering how long c1 is already on the market it still has a very small user base even among professionals."
Just before the split between Phase One and Capture One web sites there was a section of the site where you could apply for jobs with the company. It included a section about Capture One which included a statement on User Base, as I remember this was around 100000.
Dave
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I’m still harboring resentment toward Apple for abandoning Aperture, and there’s no way I’m going back to Adobe, ever. I know there are thousands of people just like me, who turned to C1 to fill the gap. It's painful to see Capture One miss such a high opportunity to step up and give Adobe a run for their money. I'm not sure if a user base of 100,000 is big enough to keep them afloat.
When Aperture development ceased, C1 welcomed users to their platform with open arms, providing tutorials and a library conversion tool especially for them. They seemed eager to please, until the requests started coming in to make C1 DAM a little more usable, and clarify some of the quirks left over from legacy C1 features. On the old forums there was lots of resistance from current C1 users, who pushed back against the Aperturization of C1, even though most of the requests weren’t geared toward changing C1, but rather just patching the holes that made round trip editing and DAM rough around the edges. For example I made a simple request to get a double click to both show *and* hide the Viewer, to keep from having to reach for the keyboard during culling, and it was flat out rejected. They didn’t even want to make a preference setting. We got the “don’t come in here and demand change, newbie” treatment.
Six years later and I can still open and run Aperture, and while it’s editing tools are outdated, the DAM elements still run much more smoothly than C1, and that's with a single Aperture Library of over 150,000 images, versus individual C1 catalogs of a couple thousand.
C1 folks are a little better at accepting feature requests these days, but one gets the feeling they're a very small company who have bitten off more than they can chew, and they don't seem to want to invest in additional resources to seriously tackle the bugs and get performance up to par with LR (and the six year old Aperture). It's a shame bc they're SOOOO close and they could really kick Adobe's butt if they put their heart into it.
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Yes, it's a shame; Capture One could have been a great program if more resources had been invested in fixing the current issues and limitations.
And as for the old Capture One users, I had the same impression. Any possible lack, limitation, malfunction, etc., in Capture One would simply be part of Capture One's unique "design philosophy". If Capture One were to suddenly invade a foreign country tomorrow, I suspect some of these users would be rushing to deflect any criticism.
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..they can't even communicate their ideas and plans for the future as almost all bigger software companies do. maybe they have non ideas except increasing the update price. from c1 i only heard substance less bragging over the years very different to this... interview-with-andy-somerfield-lead-affinity-photo-developer
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