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34 comments

  • Clau_S
    Your links don't work. They give me 404 error page. Probably they are private or I don't know, you're pasting the wrong url.

    I'll try to help anyway. Check at 100% zoom that you're putting keystone tool points in the right places. Different zoom level could produce unwanted shifts that even if unnoticeable could result in wrong inclinations.
    Also check the amount value. It should be 100% by default but you can even increase it further if 100 is not enough. Last but not least, CO is not able to correct an exaggerated perspective. Look both vertical and horizontal value to check you're not at full scale after keystone is applied.
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  • Gerald Senesac
    Thanks Claus.

    Yeah, I have the points on all 4 corners, and have zoomed in to be accurate. Its just a painting on a white wall and the perspective is not exaggerated, rather just a little out of 'square'. I shoot over 2,000 paintings each year and in other software this correction accurate and simple.

    I’m thinking the problem is that in Lightroom the tool is a ‘transform’ function as opposed to a Keystone function. I understand Keystone corrects perspective which can only act on the vertical and horizontal axis, while transform is more of a skew which can adjust all 4 sides in differing degrees on each side unrelated to the axis. For instance, in Photoshop if you attempt to correct this using "transform>perspective" it will adjust the both left and right or top and bottom in tandem, while if you were to use "transform>skew" you have the option to adjust each side independently from the others. Or in ACR/LR you can use the transform tool to just draw 4 lines around the image and it snaps into place. I'm guessing the C1 Keystone tool simply adjusts in a perspectival manner, then auto rotates to attempt to get straighter. It does not seem to work as a transform.

    Perhaps I'm missing something?

    I'm not sure how to make the photos work on this forum. They're hosted on Google Photos, are public and posted using the forums Img function.
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/KW9RC7VvSJLpi5XZ9
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/KW9RC7VvSJLpi5XZ9
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  • Ian Wilson
    You should find that it can work on horizontal and vertical at the same time. There are three different options if you press and hold the button on the toolbar. The icon for the option you want looks like #. (A bit.) And if the picture is not too skewed it can work well, but it is very dependent on getting the nodes in the right place. It's perhaps not as easy for that kind of application as something like Photoshop or Affinity Photo.

    Ian
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  • Clau_S
    NNN636774544166320981 wrote:
    Thanks Claus.

    Yeah, I have the points on all 4 corners, and have zoomed in to be accurate. Its just a painting on a white wall and the perspective is not exaggerated, rather just a little out of 'square'. I shoot over 2,000 paintings each year and in other software this correction accurate and simple.

    I’m thinking the problem is that in Lightroom the tool is a ‘transform’ function as opposed to a Keystone function. I understand Keystone corrects perspective which can only act on the vertical and horizontal axis, while transform is more of a skew which can adjust all 4 sides in differing degrees on each side unrelated to the axis. For instance, in Photoshop if you attempt to correct this using "transform>perspective" it will adjust the both left and right or top and bottom in tandem, while if you were to use "transform>skew" you have the option to adjust each side independently from the others. Or in ACR/LR you can use the transform tool to just draw 4 lines around the image and it snaps into place. I'm guessing the C1 Keystone tool simply adjusts in a perspectival manner, then auto rotates to attempt to get straighter. It does not seem to work as a transform.

    Perhaps I'm missing something?

    I'm not sure how to make the photos work on this forum. They're hosted on Google Photos, are public and posted using the forums Img function.
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2byyVRb_lkTls3sLgQBpr0LnSO0q2GoWXMOdt8uMuwU3UA_3RuDV1yTigYxrsv0zpieKt1zLJyBWBpks7MKZMkcAQaJ0xuRV7zi7zo-VV4QGA2OO7-sMAk0WNKXdWW_GBicOBHswCJdlpyHNMobJO-W7DyJgcIfH4j4J2vy4wNwFCITxgYvmzx3iDmEz35vZVWc4Yif1uf2CeupCw6xwpl4bX0T3i_HV18VVpUEUv1kaDxYkkyV678Hl6seru17tmSYS8Ey_Mif2Wd9dMGWj0e2bcHlHp_MGku-6w51goa3kmVCMXUBUT4bs-XBBEeO6DtaTCR8oAOyJ8Q5vdec2hKGvmySmlvVPS29USnoECQd9l7aCZG3r75GpxV27kSrkPMPXeFqTOArgFLDO86kuiCJfRoTOWccjy-aYTqmxRUF0ucdI1T94we1EUydYxK1e7qNiSQzFnwrN7GiLJpS3juBgpFwH1xtIFmS6rhOw6Rhu0wdo5_VJw_dUEunuiFe_geicQBB7wyfUnEAVkehLWMPLJ4PRlvjU9joPsitgU0NIqkH61X4Vr3ZOagmzLlXT4SkkJshT4be9Hj8IfDNAvDuhWc_Ut53_a7zi_Uz7QjV-Tk58W9NmqQFoy7YIB32M61WcBZwCkWPM7PCF43paCypBxRgKuj7ImlpXBq5Vtd468xhlkB7NrnhrTE_BiBh5vRP9jQazoQyr6TeLfhitF52nRIHx4kWQ9ZRNjRnVdQsuAKmg=w1042-h652-no
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/KW9RC7VvSJLpi5XZ9


    The last link works (it didn't appear as an image in the img tags 'cause actually it's not the image url. I used the right one in your quote), but if you see it is different from the other ones: photos.app.goo.gl vs photos.google.com

    Other than this, you're right about CO keystone tool limits compared to Adobe's softwares transformation features. It's not possible to square everything in CO (it completely misses a skew feature) but if you look at the example in the keystone correction section of the user guide it seems impossible not being able to straighten a painting compared to building face (unless it's fake). If I cannot obtain the right result with perfectly positioned points I move them off-site to counteract correction flaws and I usually succeed. As a painter myself I've always taken pictures of my paintings and others from my colleagues too and sometimes in the worst possible conditions, even at exaggerated angles to avoid reflections, 'cause I never had a proper study or equipment to do it in a really professional way. Sometimes I had to take pictures of exposed works too. Before CO I used to correct perspective in Photoshop but later I don't remember I've had great problems with CO (at least at reasonable angles). Or maybe I used to manage them to cut the less possible or to pass images to Photoshop in the most squared state. It's been very long since I did it last time so I'm not sure about it. I should re-open some old sessions with my paintings inside or wait to take pictures of my new works.
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  • Gerald Senesac
    Okay yes, that is the conclusion I've come to. It's very troubling that Capture One does not have a transform function.

    Here is the other image that didn't come through earlier. All of the points are precisely on all corners.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/6sVGDACTagVk1GnbA

    Other than this, you're right about CO keystone tool limits compared to Adobe's softwares transformation features. It's not possible to square everything in CO (it completely misses a skew feature) but if you look at the example in the keystone correction section of the user guide it seems impossible not being able to straighten a painting compared to building face (unless it's fake). If I cannot obtain the right result with perfectly positioned points I move them off-site to counteract correction flaws and I usually succeed. As a painter myself I've always taken pictures of my paintings and others from my colleagues too and sometimes in the worst possible conditions, even at exaggerated angles to avoid reflections, 'cause I never had a proper study or equipment to do it in a really professional way. Sometimes I had to take pictures of exposed works too. Before CO I used to correct perspective in Photoshop but later I don't remember I've had great problems with CO (at least at reasonable angles). Or maybe I used to manage them to cut the less possible or to pass images to Photoshop in the most squared state. It's been very long since I did it last time so I'm not sure about it. I should re-open some old sessions with my paintings inside or wait to take pictures of my new works.
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  • Clau_S
    NNN636774544166320981 wrote:
    Okay yes, that is the conclusion I've come to. It's very troubling that Capture One does not have a transform function.

    Here is the other image that didn't come through earlier. All of the points are precisely on all corners.

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4SMJol-xxlT7STpXamGUWueKtAYWA_lm7YoD3N9LOLvbvftbnLb09A8gOCVDQRDvoAiJUv18eAPcipODsAudnswGouIxcibDl-LWuWUFve3bKGaBae7s8lO7YO4XUBt7U7fASe4drbDd1fv4VA-iBl-fu3t7b0ePjJe8XwVV_TwvGQM94zP456g1icgBmkEUgaoALYxESS5Cn3dPzEiWt2GrUfUYoxpyAUoRzOOFH7G-z5FnGZDcLMt4O9DNDckENZq0dpfHqsMvuljM9VrVQz6X03sIFY7xtVR6It2xZ7HWueM3915aFWNT0KS2D0iWhe2olwXUEf3XOocmvktW5X8NUsDmfabQlls8EAzotAxVIl5T04e2G5f8LIhEXgqrK6Uz3dC-0lZx3B48Y4Xyvxl1BpkepXCFazWUQnI2BBT3SAIwiGq9_3vDq3NxYJTlQCDjpqOK8xk-1plyk38QZ6-fAGKnAzSc-a4nurzoPKUkTR0sewx_PeyIg5u6o1j94HZjAhyPXz16r5LBsPAiq5lCsdbgg7OF7zrO4bQErjy2PtOtOcTlZOFIuOwOWP1b3ayGCw3osfEoMzZ1sVoPow20I5sb3tFgxitVGlMOiqCdDGc1EgaLgIPUNJlW5CXedxFqvWhygCPcjIOC8BXUJLSAqe8wTg0ar3evrtN6z6Y35kp_cnbY5qivMvtlwd8t4dT2z6taMD9CoijlBSyrFxHHcW5r1W4GFgi6nBtcN4kIzd1k=w1042-h652-no


    It's indeed a skew issue 'cause both vertical and horizontal lines seem to be parallel. Was the canvas actually skewed?
    What happens if you raise the amount?
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  • Gerald Senesac
    No, the canvas wasn't warped or anything. But in the even of some slight twist or warp in the stretcher bars, the transform tool in ACR/LR fixes it perfectly.

    Yes, I've tried all of the amounts. I just reached out to a colleague and he said he experiences the same problem with C1.

    I guess C1 just isn't what I need right now.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    NNN636774544166320981 wrote:
    No, the canvas wasn't warped or anything. But in the even of some slight twist or warp in the stretcher bars, the transform tool in ACR/LR fixes it perfectly.

    Yes, I've tried all of the amounts. I just reached out to a colleague and he said he experiences the same problem with C1.

    I guess C1 just isn't what I need right now.


    Sounds like this problem is similar to one I've had, which I've described in this thread: [The Capture One forum has migrated to a new platform, as a result all links to Capture One related postsstopped working and have been removed]&sid=89736dc0aca43d06c87faa48f83d2efe

    Capture One's keystone adjustment options really seem rudimentary at best.
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  • SFA
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    NNN636774544166320981 wrote:
    No, the canvas wasn't warped or anything. But in the even of some slight twist or warp in the stretcher bars, the transform tool in ACR/LR fixes it perfectly.

    Yes, I've tried all of the amounts. I just reached out to a colleague and he said he experiences the same problem with C1.

    I guess C1 just isn't what I need right now.


    Sounds like this problem is similar to one I've had, which I've described in this thread: [The Capture One forum has migrated to a new platform, as a result all links to Capture One related postsstopped working and have been removed]&sid=89736dc0aca43d06c87faa48f83d2efe

    Capture One's keystone adjustment options really seem rudimentary at best.


    "Transform" implies pixel pushing. Perhaps in a way that root Keystone and perspective adjustment is unlikely to handle in some cases.

    To my mind the 2 dimensional appearance of, say, a distant building or a close to the camera picture on a wall may look similar in an image but the factors involved, photographically, are likely very different.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    SFA wrote:
    "Transform" implies pixel pushing. Perhaps in a way that root Keystone and perspective adjustment is unlikely to handle in some cases.

    To my mind the 2 dimensional appearance of, say, a distant building or a close to the camera picture on a wall may look similar in an image but the factors involved, photographically, are likely very different.


    I don't think it has anything to do with the actual content, what matters is the lines you're trying to correct.

    Here's an example: https://i.imgur.com/3E0u0Ny.jpg

    There are three lines in this image. The one to the right is already vertical, so no need to do anything about that. The one to the left is close to vertical, so it only needs minor adjustment. The not quite horizontal line needs more correction. If you place two adjustment points at the intersections and the two remaining adjustment points somewhere at the top of the vertical lines (disregarding the distortion that may result) and press Apply, what you get is a horizontal line and two slanted "vertical" lines:

    https://i.imgur.com/fDvYLov.jpg
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  • Ian Wilson
    I think that is because when you say you would place the two adjustment points "somewhere at the top of the vertical lines" you don't actually know how far up to place them and whether the points you choose are parallel to the known horizontal line. If you had, so a building frontage, with identifiable corners top and bottom, it would be a different matter.

    Ian
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Ian3 wrote:
    I think that is because when you say you would place the two adjustment points "somewhere at the top of the vertical lines" you don't actually know how far up to place them and whether the points you choose are parallel to the known horizontal line. If you had, so a building frontage, with identifiable corners top and bottom, it would be a different matter.

    Ian



    It shouldn't make any difference where they're placed – and the results are bad no matter where you place them. Obviously, if there was any content in between the lines, you'd see some level of distortion, but that's irrelevant here. The main issue is that Capture One is unable to handle this adjustment, while Lightroom, for instance, has no trouble with it.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    Ian3 wrote:
    I think that is because when you say you would place the two adjustment points "somewhere at the top of the vertical lines" you don't actually know how far up to place them and whether the points you choose are parallel to the known horizontal line. If you had, so a building frontage, with identifiable corners top and bottom, it would be a different matter.

    Ian


    It shouldn't make any difference where they're placed – and the results are bad no matter where you place them. Obviously, if there was any content in between the lines, you'd see some level of distortion, but that's irrelevant here. The main issue is that Capture One is unable to handle this adjustment, while Lightroom, for instance, has no trouble with it.

    Just to show that it makes no difference, here's an example where you can easily place the four adjustment points with complete precision: https://i.imgur.com/X2AWNMz.jpg

    In the example, only two lines need correction, nevertheless the result is this:

    https://i.imgur.com/Lcmryms.jpg

    The only conclusion that can be drawn is already in the title of this thread.
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  • Ian Wilson
    I agree that the 4-way correction sometimes seems to work and sometimes doesn't. But if you only have two lines that need correction, why not use one of the 2 way options?

    Ian
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Ian3 wrote:
    I agree that the 4-way correction sometimes seems to work and sometimes doesn't. But if you only have two lines that need correction, why not use one of the 2 way options?

    Ian


    In the example, one of the two lines that needed correction was vertical, the other horizontal.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Here's another test, which makes it quite clear that keystone isn't working as it should.

    Test image: https://i.imgur.com/dexZGjF.jpg

    Adjustments:
    https://i.imgur.com/2F69igv.jpg

    Result:
    https://i.imgur.com/GmqM1Gx.jpg
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    One more example that Capture One's keystone correction doesn't work properly.

    Here's a detail of a photo of a window. The four adjustment points are placed in the four corners (and I've selected the keystone option that includes both vertical and horizontal correction). As you can see, the adjustment points are placed correctly:

    https://i.imgur.com/YiKdUtJ.jpg

    But after pressing Apply, the vertical lines are not quite vertical (the red lines are Capture One's guides):

    https://i.imgur.com/yxQPiyb.jpg

    The same goes for the left side of the window frame. Rather than the rectangle you should have expected, the result is a slightly random parallelogram.

    Here's an image that shows the outline of the window frame exactly as it is in the original photo: https://i.imgur.com/TjQGLmW.png – I get the same result with this file.

    (And here's a copy of the original file: https://i.imgur.com/r0ebWTS.jpg).

    Needless to say, this all works as it should in Lightroom (but if I had wanted to use Lightroom I wouldn't be writing here).

    By the way, after waiting for more than two weeks I finally got a reply to a support request regarding keystone correction. But rather than address the issue, it implied that I didn't understand how keystone correction worked and said that I could use the adjustment sliders instead of the adjustment points. That's it.
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  • Ian Wilson
    Interesting. I downloaded your original, and tried it for myself. My first attempt wasn't quite rectangular, but when I zoomed in to about 167%, I could see that I had not been ultra-precise in placing the handles. So I tried again placing them with great care, and it seems to have come out right. I've added guides and taken a screenshot. (I agree that at first sight it looks a little odd lower right, but you have to be careful to line up with the actual window frame and not the shadow below it. It has go the window frame right.)

    (But I agree that with rather more extreme examples than your window, it does very odd things!)

    https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49385093111_f77da61f58.jpg

    Ian
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Ian3 wrote:
    Interesting. I downloaded your original, and tried it for myself. My first attempt wasn't quite rectangular, but when I zoomed in to about 167%, I could see that I had not been ultra-precise in placing the handles. So I tried again placing them with great care, and it seems to have come out right. I've added guides and taken a screenshot. (I agree that at first sight it looks a little odd lower right, but you have to be careful to line up with the actual window frame and not the shadow below it. It has go the window frame right.)

    (But I agree that with rather more extreme examples than your window, it does very odd things!)

    https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49385093111_f77da61f58.jpg

    Ian

    Thanks for your comment. I've tried several times, zooming in as far as C1 allows, and the verticals still end up slightly slanted. I just tried again, and both sides of the window frame come out like in the image above, slightly slanted.
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  • Ian Wilson
    Maybe I was lucky in the positioning of them. It is very sensitive to that.

    Ian
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Ian3 wrote:
    Maybe I was lucky in the positioning of them. It is very sensitive to that.

    Ian

    Probably.

    I really hope they'll do something about this keystone tool. In Lightroom it's so easy to use (though improvements are definitely possible), and the results are always predictable; I've never before seen anything like the – apparent – randomness of C1.
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  • Dave R
    Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

    Dave
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    David532 wrote:
    Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

    Dave

    Parallel verticals is a convention in architectural photography, so full correction should be expected.
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  • SFA
    David532 wrote:
    Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

    Dave


    Well remembered David.

    https://blog.captureone.com/tag/keystone-tool/

    This finds 4 posts related to the use to the Keystone tool including the one I think you specifically remember.

    No comprehensive consideration of all aspects of what it is intended to offer but I think they are good backgrounders in terms of how the developer's expectations were conceived and, perhaps, how the majority of users who do indeed use it turn out to be using it.

    Perhaps this thread has identified that things have moved on and it's time to revisit the tool in some way and refine it or enhance the documented usage guidance.

    That said this article about the equivalent type of functionality in Adobe products also seems to suggest that some things can be unpredictable and puzzling depending on the image so the "perfect tool" that we all seek may not be a realistic expectation?

    The article presumably dates from 2016 based on the date stamps in the comments. So 4 years old at the time of writing. Things may have changed already?

    https://photographylife.com/how-to-use-perspective-corrections-in-lightroom-and-photoshop


    In general, with the exception of the LR "Auto" setting and some Adobe "pixel pushing" capabilities that seem to be available, there's not much obvious difference in core concept and functionality between LR and C1 so far as I can tell. The details may differ or course, but the core concept seems very similar. As one might expect.


    Grant
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  • Dave R
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    David532 wrote:
    Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

    Dave

    Parallel verticals is a convention in architectural photography, so full correction should be expected.

    I found the link I was talking about where default settings is 80% to “give a more natural look†is covered.

    https://blog.captureone.com/how-to-correct-perspective-with-the-keystone-tool/

    Dave
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  • Dave R
    SFA wrote:
    David532 wrote:
    Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

    Dave


    Well remembered David.

    https://blog.captureone.com/tag/keystone-tool/

    This finds 4 posts related to the use to the Keystone tool including the one I think you specifically remember.

    No comprehensive consideration of all aspects of what it is intended to offer but I think they are good backgrounders in terms of how the developer's expectations were conceived and, perhaps, how the majority of users who do indeed use it turn out to be using it.

    Perhaps this thread has identified that things have moved on and it's time to revisit the tool in some way and refine it or enhance the documented usage guidance.

    That said this article about the equivalent type of functionality in Adobe products also seems to suggest that some things can be unpredictable and puzzling depending on the image so the "perfect tool" that we all seek may not be a realistic expectation?

    The article presumably dates from 2016 based on the date stamps in the comments. So 4 years old at the time of writing. Things may have changed already?

    https://photographylife.com/how-to-use-perspective-corrections-in-lightroom-and-photoshop


    In general, with the exception of the LR "Auto" setting and some Adobe "pixel pushing" capabilities that seem to be available, there's not much obvious difference in core concept and functionality between LR and C1 so far as I can tell. The details may differ or course, but the core concept seems very similar. As one might expect.


    Grant


    Good summary Grant and you beat me to it while I was searching for the original blog post ☹️ . As an aside I used to get regular links to the blogs but these seem to have disappeared over the last few years.

    Dave
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    David532 wrote:
    thomaskyhn wrote:
    David532 wrote:
    Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

    Dave

    Parallel verticals is a convention in architectural photography, so full correction should be expected.

    I found the link I was talking about where default settings is 80% to “give a more natural look†is covered.

    https://blog.captureone.com/how-to-correct-perspective-with-the-keystone-tool/

    Dave

    Yes, I'm aware of this default setting. I've made a request for this to be either changed to 100 or at least made adjustable. 80% is a completely arbitrary value given that the starting point could be anything from slightly to heavily converging verticals.
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  • Clau_S
    Ian3 wrote:
    Maybe I was lucky in the positioning of them. It is very sensitive to that.

    Ian


    The unreliability of keystone points positioning and the subsequent fact that you're compelled to always zoom in and out to set them is one of the most annoying things in Capture One. That's why on my last bug report in December I have suggested Phase One to improve it too, like in Lightroom, with a zoom of the area around the point that you move. Basically a combination of keystone and loupe tool. Nothing too fancy to implement, I think.
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  • Thomas Kyhn
    ClauS wrote:
    The unreliability of keystone points positioning and the subsequent fact that you're compelled to always zoom in and out to set them is one of the most annoying things in Capture One. That's why on my last bug report in December I have suggested Phase One to improve it too, like in Lightroom, with a zoom of the area around the point that you move. Basically a combination of keystone and loupe tool. Nothing too fancy to implement, I think.

    A loup function like Lightroom's would be a very useful addition.

    For those who aren't familiar with it, it looks like this:

    https://i.imgur.com/hJxyrRV.jpg
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  • SFA
    If looking for an immediate solution that is something like the Loupe tool proposed this might be worth a try.

    Run the viewer at 100% (or more if required)

    Open a Navigator tool floating at a convenient point on screen.

    Use the Navigator window to position the current view of the main viewer to include the Keystone adjustment point requiring positioning. Click the point to activate it.

    Now position the centre of the adjustment point by dragging or use the up/down/left/right arrow keys, any Keyboard Shortcut keys you may have defined or the slider or value fields of the Keystone tool.

    That should allow good precision as and when required.

    HTH.

    Grant
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