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A warning to the inattentive

Michael M
Thought that I would share my latest slip-up with C1 just in case it saves anyone else some inconvenience.

After loading 800 images, reviewing, rating, then editing and key wording 80 of these images, I left all of my keepers selected in the browser. My intent was to open another session and move these images into it (a "master" session that I use as a quasi catalogue). As I went about this I must have clicked "Reset Adjustments on All Selected Variants" without noticing (a loose movement of my stylus?), thereby undoing all edits, ratings, keywords on my 80 images. Would have been ok if I had noticed and just clicked redo (I guess) but I did enough clicking/closing etc to void that option.

So, lesson to self here, is pay particular attention when images are selected in the browser, as loose clicks can have consequences.

Michael
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Comments

16 comments

Date Votes
  • cdc
    Preferences > Warnings Tab > Enable 'Warn when resetting adjustments on multiple variants'
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  • Michael M
    Curious ... that warning preference is already ticked (all of them are).

    I saw no warning, and so my assumption about clicking the Reset All button must be wrong.

    How else would all adjustments on 80 images disappear? They did disappear too, when I reopened the session by double clicking an image in Finder, the images were in the browser with colour tags, crops etc and disappeared one by one, just as happens when moving images.
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  • SFA
    NNN636654098655209318 wrote:
    Curious ... that warning preference is already ticked (all of them are).

    I saw no warning, and so my assumption about clicking the Reset All button must be wrong.

    How else would all adjustments on 80 images disappear? They did disappear too, when I reopened the session by double clicking an image in Finder, the images were in the browser with colour tags, crops etc and disappeared one by one, just as happens when moving images.


    The Images disappeared from the browser because (you think) you reset the edits?

    Does that mean your browser selection was the result of a Smart Album definition?
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  • Michael M
    Inadvertently resetting the edits was the only thing that made sense as a cause. That was until I saw that the warning was set for that option, and I am very confident that I did not see a warning ... that presumably requires a positive action, like acceptance, to proceed.

    So I am left confused. Why did edits on a set of images in the browser disappear when I opened another session? I was more comfortable with the reset all human error explanation as I can avoid that. I will not leave any images in the browser when I exit a session again, in case that is a contributing factor.

    I am on 12.1.0.15. All of the images are in the session, just without the edits. This is the only time that this has happened (so far!).
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  • SFA
    NNN636654098655209318 wrote:
    Inadvertently resetting the edits was the only thing that made sense as a cause. That was until I saw that the warning was set for that option, and I am very confident that I did not see a warning ... that presumably requires a positive action, like acceptance, to proceed.

    So I am left confused. Why did edits on a set of images in the browser disappear when I opened another session? I was more comfortable with the reset all human error explanation as I can avoid that. I will not leave any images in the browser when I exit a session again, in case that is a contributing factor.

    I am on 12.1.0.15. All of the images are in the session, just without the edits. This is the only time that this has happened (so far!).


    What was the "other session"?

    An existing completely different session or a new session set to point at the original session's folder(s)?

    Do your C1 preferences (General Tab) under "Catalog and Session" allow you to "Open in a new window?"



    I'm not at all clear about what you have been doing here.

    However if you 'reset' the adjustments the images will not disappear but the representation of the images in both Browser window and Viewer window may change, reverting to the initial base interpretation of a RAW file (if you were using RAW files) or the out of camera jpg original if not.

    If using a Session (and NOT a Catalogue) are you familiar with the way that edit information files and the thumbnails and previews are stored in relation to the 'original' source files?

    If so have you checked that the edit files still exist what C1 expects to find them (the Originals too) AND that they look like they have no edit information that might reflect your edits?


    Grant
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  • Michael M
    OK Grant, in order.

    I have written about two sessions: a new session, into which I uploaded my 800 raw images; and a separate, existing session (the "other" session) into which I plan to move my keepers from the new session (a master folder of selects that will hold a season's-worth of rugby photos from numerous weekly sessions ... I will then delete the weekly session folders. I have not yet moved any images from the new session anywhere, so all 800 are contained in that session.

    "Open in a new window" is unchecked.

    My familiarity with file storage is limited to having seen the folder structure for my sessions in Mac OS Finder.
    The raw images exist (in the Capture folder of the original session, Date Modified being when shot). The output images exist (jpegs of my keepers that I have uploaded to Smugmug) in the Output folder of that session, Date Modified when output. The .cot and .cos files exist, in the Capture Thumbnails and Settings120 folders; and Output Settings120 folder, Date Modified when output. The .cot and .cos files for the raw files look to have Dates Modified that reflect my rework (I have re-applied star ratings and colour tags to the keepers ... have not yet reapplied any other of my original edits).

    I can see the edit files but have only ever viewed their edit information through their effect on the raw image in the browser. They exist, are all 6kb in size. Beyond that?

    If I open the new session, I see my 800 images in the Capture folder, with 78 of them rated and colour tagged. If I view any of these in the Browser, I do not see any edits (other than those applied in the raw image upload) ... no crops etc etc.

    Michael
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  • SFA
    Hello Michael,

    The size of the .cos files you mentioned suggests they may well be 'new' files rather than significantly edited files.

    Is it safe to assume that everything has been in done in Version 12 of C1?

    I can understand what you are seeking to achieve and it seems a reasonable approach although there may be other ways to be tried.

    However I'm not entirely certain I have understood with precision what has occurred and for sessions that may be important.

    When you write "The raw images exist (in the Capture folder of the original session, Date Modified being when shot)." should I understand that to mean that you have the 800 images in the NEW SESSION actually saved to the the Capture Folder of the OLD session - perhaps better described as the MASTER session?

    In other words both sessions are sharing the same original source files and the same CaptureOne subfolder and the Settings120 and cache subfolders therein?

    Or are they entirely separate?

    If you have an Settings120 subfolder under the Output folder that suggests that you have opened the Output folder through C1 at some point and thus made the Outputted files "Original" image for which C1 has automatically created .cos files, previews and thumbnails.

    I try to avoid that for various reasons, not the least being a build up of unnecessary files, but in theory it is entirely possible to work like that though potentially a little confusing.

    It's 4am here and I have to do some things away from my PC for the next few hours but If you get an opportunity to clarify things in respect of my question about where the files are I will give it some more thought and see whee that leads me.

    Is it at all possible that you have EXPORTED the ORIGINALS to the Output folder (i.e. with no edits applied just the straight Original file although possibly converted to a jpg or w.h.y.) and then opened that Output folder in C1 at which point the new .cos files, etc., would have been created?

    In theory the Log files would provide an activity trace back - if you know what to look for and how to read them.

    I hate to keep asking questions but so far I'm not entirely sure what problem you are actually seeing and your original post seems to make an assumption that you reset without realising it - but that might not have been the case and there could be some benefit in looking at how you work with multiple sessions.


    Grant
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  • Michael M
    Hi Grant,

    Many thanks for your 4:00am efforts!

    Yes, everything was done in C1 12.1.

    800 images are in the new session (I plan to upload the keepers to Selects in the master folder, but none is moved yet). Both of these sessions are completely separate, with nothing shared.

    I may well have opened the Output folder as you suggest when I was searching for my edits.

    No originals have been exported from my new session anywhere ... just the keepers processed as jpegs to Output (still there), and then uploaded to Smugmug.

    I have looked at the C1 log files for 18 and 19 August (upload date and edit disappearance date) but cannot understand a thing about them.

    Happy for you to pose questions. I want to understand what has happened (likely what I have done), to avoid a repeat. Reset All looked to be the only logical explanation (given all keepers were in the browser), but with the warning option set, I am almost certain now that this cannot have happened.

    Michael
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  • SFA
    Hello Michael,

    Is there any chance that at some point you may have opened the NEW Session's Original images folder with the 'Master' session?

    The way sessions work no import is required. If you open a session and navigate to a system folder containing images C1 will see the images and read them, creating .cos files, thumbnails etc. However if images in the folder have been previously worked on with C1 it will normally use those edits and continue to work with the already existing files. But I suppose there is chance that in some situations that might not work out. We are, after all, talking about computer systems and they are not 100% infallible.

    Realistically I think the only way you are likely to be able to discover what may have happened is to have the Log files analysed. I'm a Windows rather than Mac user and I am not sure how different the logs in the files my be in terms of reading and interpretation between the two systems.

    Your best bet - especially in the case that there is some sort of anomaly that allows such a problem to occur - would be to create a Support Case with the C1 Support Team and get them to take a look at the Log files, etc. to see what they can find out about the processing and timing of events.

    Log files can only report what people have identified as being needed for reports and therefore coded into them but generally there should be enough information available so see if something unexpected has happened even if exactly what happened to create the anomaly has not been recorded in detail.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Michael M
    Is there any chance that at some point you may have opened the NEW Session's Original images folder with the 'Master' session?


    That is very likely what I did when I started trying to move the original images with their edits into the Selects folder of the master session ... having done that successfully with ~18 other sessions (with the master session open, I use the Library tool to find the images in the new session by navigating through the System folders, select them and then click move to Selects).

    If this can fail, is there a safer way ... perhaps, export originals to desktop (creates a copy, yes?), move these, delete the new session and desktop copy once confirmed in the master session)?

    Michael
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  • SFA
    NNN636654098655209318 wrote:
    Is there any chance that at some point you may have opened the NEW Session's Original images folder with the 'Master' session?


    That is very likely what I did when I started trying to move the original images with their edits into the Selects folder of the master session ... having done that successfully with ~18 other sessions (with the master session open, I use the Library tool to find the images in the new session by navigating through the System folders, select them and then click move to Selects).

    If this can fail, is there a safer way ... perhaps, export originals to desktop (creates a copy, yes?), move these, delete the new session and desktop copy once confirmed in the master session)?

    Michael


    Were the 80+ images in the Selects folder (the PHYSICAL selected folder not the Virtual one link to wherever it is pointing) of the NEW session before you sought to move them to the MASTER session?

    If one 'moves' anything doing so within C1 it will (or should) ensure that the Settings and Cache entries go along at the same time.

    So either the Settings and Cache entries will remain where they were (in the relevant folders in the NEW session) or should be found in some subfolders in the "Master" session.

    Does the SELECTS folder in the MASTER session contain all selected image from all previous individual sessions?

    Does your file naming convention ensure that all files have names that will always avoid potential accidental duplication?

    There are so many potential little pitfalls that offering considerable flexibility can come with that it's not so easy do determine with precision what may have happened based on speculation that needs to cover all possibilities.

    I think you need to to get someone to work through the log file entries related to when the problem occurred but also attempt to reproduce the problem. If reproducing it is not possible there is a risk of spending a huge amount of time trying to identify something that may be a one off event for reasons that cannot be identified.

    In terms of a safer way ... no sure. What you have done sounds reasonable depending on where "Selects" thought it was supposed to be pointing at the time (I.E. Which session's virtual Selects target folder was active).

    I might try some tests later BUT as a Windows user my experience may be different, in terms of the potential of specific anomalies if there are any, to yours. So I could be wasting my time (and so, potentially, yours too) simply because the basic file handling of the systems is not exactly identical.


    Grant
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  • Michael M
    Thanks Grant, I think I'll treat this as a blue moon event ... protecting myself by running a full back-up before I move. If one in every twenty or so moves triggers something, then so be it. May never happen again. Time to focus more on taking images.

    Michael
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  • SFA
    Hi Michael,

    That sounds like a logical approach.

    Just in case some of the movement activity has done something as instructed but not as you expected at the time (if you see what I mean - these things can happen especially when some action has become instinctive) you could run a search through the system looking for errant .cos files (etc.) that match the file names but appear in unexpected folders.

    If you find some it may throw some light on what happened. If you don't - well no nearer an explanation but it will only have cost a couple of minutes of your time and a few seconds of computer processing energy consumption! However one possible problem source will have been eliminated.

    Grant
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  • Michael M
    Well, the moon was blue again. Lost edits on 79 shots from the weekend in a new session. Same trigger (opening my master session in the pull down menu in the Library tool and then locating the capture folder in the new session through the system folder menu in Library tool) ... 79 rated and colour tagged images when it appeared in the browser that then counted down to 41.

    I then repeated the process (start from master session, use Library tool system folder menu to locate the capture folder in the new session) ... 41 rated images there that then counted down to 1. So a two-step disappearance

    I have raised a support case with Phase One and attached the C1 log files.

    I had backed-up all sessions before attempting the move. I brought the back-up onto my desktop and, using this copy, I was able to locate the 79 rated images and move them to the selects folder in the master session as easy as you like.

    Colour me confused. Hopefully Phase One Support can deduce what is happening.

    Michael

    ps. no misplaced .cos files that I have seen
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  • SFA
    NNN636654098655209318 wrote:
    Well, the moon was blue again. Lost edits on 79 shots from the weekend in a new session. Same trigger (opening my master session in the pull down menu in the Library tool and then locating the capture folder in the new session through the system folder menu in Library tool) ... 79 rated and colour tagged images when it appeared in the browser that then counted down to 41.

    I then repeated the process (start from master session, use Library tool system folder menu to locate the capture folder in the new session) ... 41 rated images there that then counted down to 1. So a two-step disappearance

    I have raised a support case with Phase One and attached the C1 log files.

    I had backed-up all sessions before attempting the move. I brought the back-up onto my desktop and, using this copy, I was able to locate the 79 rated images and move them to the selects folder in the master session as easy as you like.

    Colour me confused. Hopefully Phase One Support can deduce what is happening.

    Michael

    ps. no misplaced .cos files that I have seen


    Hi Michael,

    Well, at least it's repeatable!

    Not much consolation though.

    Had you closed the "New" session at some point after making the edits but before opening the Master session?


    Grant
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  • Michael M
    Phase One Support has advised that this issue is likely related to a bug that they are aware of.
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