The primary problem with 4.0
In some respects I can be okay with the 4.0 release. It is certainly better than the betas. But in my opinion 4.0 is geared towards photographers who are working mostly with only 40-50 images at a time. The workflow which was simple and easy in 3.7 has been slowed down in 4.0 because of the various hoops that we now have to jump through. The overall theme of 4.0, at least compared to 3.7, is let's take something that was easy and make it as confusing and convoluted as possible. The biggest example of this is with the copy and apply adjustments.
In 3.7 copying and applying adjustments could not be any easier. With your target images highlighted, you simply picked the next 5 or 10 or 15 images you wanted to apply default adjustments from the target image, click the apply button and you were done. This was so simple that it was the primary reason I bought C1 Pro 3 years ago. In 4.0 all that simplicity is gone. Instead of going from Point A to Point B, which you could do in 3.7; now Phase One has us going from Point A to Point B to Point C to Point D, all to accomplish the same thing. My question to Phase One is "why"? How is this an improvement? When working on projects of 1000+ images this new system now takes me at least twice as long and manages to leave me with a headache. Again, if I was just working on 40-50 images it would possibly be okay, but definitely not with large amounts of images. This new system might be more sophisticated, but if it slows my workflow down that much then it's really not something I want to use.
This whole theme of taking something simple and making it tedious and confusing is maybe best seen in the batch processing in 4.0. Again, in 3.7 it was straightforward: pick the images you want to process and click process (Point A to Point B). Now we have the added step of having to hold down the shift key while clicking on process (Point A to Point B to Point C). Again: why? In this case the issue is relatively minor, but it's what lies behind it that bothers me. How is this an improvement?
Likewise with the tool panels. On a 24" screen there is plenty of empty space in the panels. Why not put the rotate tool (something that is frequently used and doesn't take up much window space) and put it in the Quick panel, the Color panel and the Exposure panel so it can be gotten to much quicker than having to access the crop and rotate panel for oftentimes that single function of doing a slight rotation (I realize the Pro version, at least in 3.7, has the detachable rotate tool, and would expect that to be in 4.0 Pro). Even better, give us the ability to collapse certain parts of a panel (for me, I never use the histogram).
If 4.0 had 3.7's simplicity in copying and applying adjustments, it would be a huge improvement to 4.0 . . a huge improvement. Seems strange to think that having to go back to a previous version is an improvement; but in this case it would be.
In 3.7 copying and applying adjustments could not be any easier. With your target images highlighted, you simply picked the next 5 or 10 or 15 images you wanted to apply default adjustments from the target image, click the apply button and you were done. This was so simple that it was the primary reason I bought C1 Pro 3 years ago. In 4.0 all that simplicity is gone. Instead of going from Point A to Point B, which you could do in 3.7; now Phase One has us going from Point A to Point B to Point C to Point D, all to accomplish the same thing. My question to Phase One is "why"? How is this an improvement? When working on projects of 1000+ images this new system now takes me at least twice as long and manages to leave me with a headache. Again, if I was just working on 40-50 images it would possibly be okay, but definitely not with large amounts of images. This new system might be more sophisticated, but if it slows my workflow down that much then it's really not something I want to use.
This whole theme of taking something simple and making it tedious and confusing is maybe best seen in the batch processing in 4.0. Again, in 3.7 it was straightforward: pick the images you want to process and click process (Point A to Point B). Now we have the added step of having to hold down the shift key while clicking on process (Point A to Point B to Point C). Again: why? In this case the issue is relatively minor, but it's what lies behind it that bothers me. How is this an improvement?
Likewise with the tool panels. On a 24" screen there is plenty of empty space in the panels. Why not put the rotate tool (something that is frequently used and doesn't take up much window space) and put it in the Quick panel, the Color panel and the Exposure panel so it can be gotten to much quicker than having to access the crop and rotate panel for oftentimes that single function of doing a slight rotation (I realize the Pro version, at least in 3.7, has the detachable rotate tool, and would expect that to be in 4.0 Pro). Even better, give us the ability to collapse certain parts of a panel (for me, I never use the histogram).
If 4.0 had 3.7's simplicity in copying and applying adjustments, it would be a huge improvement to 4.0 . . a huge improvement. Seems strange to think that having to go back to a previous version is an improvement; but in this case it would be.
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I completely agree. In addition to what you've stated, the lack of sufficient keyboard shortcuts adds to the cumbersome, painfully slow, workflow. Sad, really, since they are so trivially easy to implement either directly or by adding application menu functions which can be associated with user-defined shortcuts.
Another problem is poor performance on PPC machines - I thought this was going to be fixed!!!0 -
The work flow with C4 is appalling compared to C1 Pro. Its not a question of getting used to a new interface, the process is fatally flawed.
I'm looking at other Raw processors because I need to process D3 files. Going back to C1pro (which i would rather do) is not an option since Phase One refuse to update C1 pro for the D3.
How is everybody else managing with D3 files.
thanks0 -
I get the impression that Phase One will be updating 3.7 Pro with newer camera profiles, or at least that is what they have promised. They have not indicated when. I've been holding off on the D300 for the same reason, but only if the D300 is supported by 3.7, not 4.0. 0 -
Yup, I completely agree as well. The strength of C1 compared to all the others (aperture, Lightroom etc) is that it could be used to go through large quantities of files very quickly. If I wanted to do 30-40 files I can get by just fine with any of these, but for the 2000-6000 files I go through after a major race weekend I need Capture one. The others would drive me nuts and I have to get the files up within a day or two so I simply can not do it in that smooth effortless C1 way with any other program.
For an upgrade, I didn't want any features added if they interfered with the uncluttered interface and if they got in the way of fast working .
In that sense the C4 disastergrade has been my worst nightmare. The tini hard to read buttons. Why? The cluttered interface. Why?
Phase one .... you've ruined your major strenght with this attempt to look like all the other shows.
Well I solved my problem with adapting to Capture one v4. If I'm going to use a lightroom clone, why not go with the real deal?
Sure its clumsy with the interface, almost as bad as C1 is now but it is a major app with good support and C1 now has nothing of merit compared to it .... so .... I've dumped C1 v 4 and bought lightroom.
I will look out for the pro version ... perhaps phase one will work some unexpected miracle and go back to its roots, but I'm not holding my breath. Too bad - Capture one was an ergonomic masterpiece. Now it is a "me too" application with less of what they offer. What a shame.
For an example of an app which never lets new features get in the way of the original intent of a "fast" browser ... I hope phase one can learn a bit from Photomechanics creators - Camera bits. And they listen to their customers.0 -
I agree with the above, ditto, and same for me. I have said this before and I will say it again. Why, why, why totally and completely revamp our workflow? You took something simple, and made it a major task.
Then insert some buggy scenarios and the lack of new [current] camera profiles for Nikon and Canon, and you have lost your audience.
I would love a larger Histogram and I like the new dynamic range. But why you chose to give us a much more complicated version of the same thing otherwise, I have no clue.
I think what everyone is saying is simple...give us the Pro Version, with added camera profiles, the new tools added, and keep everything else the same s it has been.
C3.7 Pro was fast as well. This new version jams my Quad G5 up so bad that I can not do any other functions while processing images.0 -
What is a complete mystery to me is why the response from Phase seems to be to dig in their heels and do almost the exact opposite of what virtually every user wants. Every once in a while someone will redesign a piece of software in a way that redefines how it is used and it becomes, after a period of adjustment, a crowd favorite. Unfortunately this is just not it. So many people have been asking the question "why" and the reply has been dead silence. Why? 0 -
I will try to reply to some of your questions but will refrain from the longwinded version.
Current version is the FIRST version of a brand new software, yes there is quirks. So it was in the original Image Capture for Scan backs, Lightphase Capture 2.0 and Capture One 3.0
Capture One 3.0 evolved to Capture One 3.7.7 which you all seem to like!
What if you had a Capture One 3.7.7 with a feature implementation was much faster, image processing that was faster, preview generation that was faster?
Here comes Capture One 4.0 in to place.
Now most would like to have a Capture One PRO 4 right now, but in this case we chose to release a LE version first and will release PRO when it is done instead of holding back LE until PRO is done and allow any one that has a Capture One license to use the software.
Right now our programmers have four tasks in a none specific order.
1. Capture One PRO / DB 4
2. Capture One 4 fixes (which can be combined with above task)
3. Capture One 4 feature implementations.
4. Maintain Capture One 3.7.x
Capture One PRO 3.7.x is not dead we will still develop this for a while more, there will be no new features but bug fixes and new camera support should be added.
To pfigen
Read the to announcement in this forum called "Please read" and you will understand why we have not been as active as we normally are.
Also it explain where to get answers from Phase One if needed.
Cheers!
-Ulf 😉0 -
What if you had a Capture One 3.7.7 with a feature implementation was much faster, image processing that was faster, preview generation that was faster?
Here comes Capture One 4.0 in to place
Image processing is faster in 4.0, as well as preview generation; but not sure I buy into the idea that the feature implementation in 4.0 is much faster than it is in 3.7 . . at least not with the copy and apply adjustments. My experience so far is that it is much slower. Maybe Phase One could post a video online that shows exactly how this feature is meant to work in 4.0 and how it is faster than 3.7. Maybe a side by side comparison between the two to show us the speed difference. I have to admit that even after weeks of working with 4.0 I still am baffled by the copy and apply adjustments workflow. If you all could make it quicker than 3.7, then you are geniuses.0 -
"What if you had a Capture One 3.7.7 with a feature implementation was much faster, image processing that was faster, preview generation that was faster?"
-If, and I say again, If, I had the 3.7 workflow, with new features such as dynamic range, and faster proccessing, and not, repeat not change the entire new workflow, that would be fantastic. Perfect. What we all suggest.
"Here comes Capture One 4.0 in to place."
-Here comes the problems in to place. 4.0 is certainly far, repeat far slower. Five Minutes to process one image is not fast. Especially if I am proccessing 280 images like I did for five hours last week. And while I am proccessing in C 4, my computer is dead in the water. At least with 3.7 while proccessing, I could still do invoicing and use other software while proccessing in the background. C4 grinds my Quad G5 to a crawl. My only choice is to go take a shower, eat dinner and watch a movie while processing.
And again, why completely change, revamp, re-locate and re-create our entire workflow with new windows, buttons, knobs, clicks, tricks, hold-shift-options, select this and hold that, and more? How is that "faster"? it is slower all the way around from concept to function to more steps to proccessing.0 -
I agree with the previous posts. Took me a bit to figure out why I couldn't EASILY apply adjustments like in C1 Pro v3.7.7. (Yea, I refer to the manual as last resort), and why the extra SHIFT to batch process? And compared to LIghtroom...bc that's what I feel like I'm using rather than the intuitive/more visually appealing C1 v3, it's easier to apply adjustments/process AND you can still color-code to tag images. I can recognize color faster than a star/number rating system. As digi tech / young photographer, I'm just not seeing an overall benefit for my workflow. 0 -
Image processing is faster in 4.0, as well as preview generation; but not sure I buy into the idea that the feature implementation in 4.0 is much faster than it is in 3.7 .
What I was referring to here was the development / programming of the application it self and not referring to features.
Dana
We are trying to optimize more of the code to increase performance on PPC processors however the ImageCore is completely optimized for x86 (Intel) based processors why this has been done is that it is the same imagecore used on Mac and PC.
All Windows based computers as using the x86 architecture and since August 2006 Apple do not sell PPC base computers anymore.
In the customer base using Capture One running PPC based computers we are talking about a couple of percent and this is chaining to fewer by the minute.
It is hard to justify 100% true optimization (equal performance per floating point) when the two processors are very different and a lot of adaptations have to be done to the PPC.
However we have made sure that we are compatible and will continue to offer compatibility but the drastic performance increase you experience between CO3.7 and CO4 on x86 based computers will not be as obvious on a PPC based computer.
rockstarbaun
Star rating has been implemented when this is becoming a standard in the industry.It just makes sense. Also for future support of XMP this can be transparent between programs.
The extra shift is there to recognize the primary selected vs. a range of images in a multi image preview.
This can be more apparent and will probably be modified, at least in single user mode.0 -
[quote="UlfLiljegren" wrote:
Dana
We are trying to optimize more of the code to increase performance on PPC processors however the ImageCore is completely optimized for x86 (Intel) based processors why this has been done is that it is the same imagecore used on Mac and PC.
All Windows based computers as using the x86 architecture and since August 2006 Apple do not sell PPC base computers anymore.
In the customer base using Capture One running PPC based computers we are talking about a couple of percent and this is chaining to fewer by the minute.
It is hard to justify 100% true optimization (equal performance per floating point) when the two processors are very different and a lot of adaptations have to be done to the PPC.
However we have made sure that we are compatible and will continue to offer compatibility but the drastic performance increase you experience between CO3.7 and CO4 on x86 based computers will not be as obvious on a PPC based computer.
Well this just gets better and better. So people like me, who do volume work on
PPC machines, are basically screwed. Lousy performance and even lousier workflow. Oh, and I paid for a pro license less than a year ago. What an idiot I was.0 -
"the ImageCore is completely optimized for x86 (Intel) based processors why this has been done is that it is the same imagecore used on Mac and PC. "
"since August 2006 Apple do not sell PPC base computers anymore. "
Firstly, I purchased an Apple G5 Quad and a Powerbook G4 last January, 2007. Neither computers are Intel based. I made that decision because most software was not Intel based at this time last year. I do not plan on spending another $10k just because you "upgraded" your software to work more efficiently on Intel based computers. I doubt I am alone.
But still, I think Phase One is avoiding the growing list of comments above.
- the software is buggy. I deleted a folder I no longer needed and it crashed C4 just now.
- the additional clicks, windows and rev-vamped workflow is not because of Intel based systems. it is because P1 changed the workflow and how it works.
- the lack of a software manual, book or a solid help platform is not because of Intel. It is because "help" does not exist.
- the copy and apply adjustments is slower and extra steps in my workflow. That is not an Intel based feature.
- C4 does not read previous C3.7 files. New version software not reading previous versions is unheard of in software development.
- the previous workflow was fast and efficient. Now I have to view, click and scramble all over the screen. For example, 3.7 had a small processing timer on the bottom right. I now have to open a new panel to get that information. Find, click, look, go back, click, view, review, click, go back etc etc etc.
"The extra shift is there to recognize the primary selected vs. a range of images in a multi image preview. "
It is an extra step, period. If I want to select one image, I select one image. If I want to select 200 images, I select 200. But now, I have to hold down "shift".0 -
Hold on a second ... "- C4 does not read previous C3.7 files. New version software not reading previous versions is unheard of in software development. " .... WHAT?
That may be the answer to a syndrome I was experiencing.
I shoot mostly tethered so I use pre-C1 4 but wanted to use it after the fact to get ready for C1 4 PRO -- by the way, when will that one come? -- and the icon for the "preference" file that goes together with the processed files doesn't created on C1 3x is not recognized by C1 4.
That is really the opposite of brilliant on the part of Phase One, sorry to say.
If you buy the $300 dollar book (since sold for much less), Applied Craftsmanship by Mr. Brochenko Phase One is all about being able to replicate the applied craftsmanship used on one image to others. Well, not any more since every instruction has been rendered MUTE by this.
Whao 🤓0 -
Just worked on my first proper shoot with C1 Pro and a pair of 1ds Mk3s. Wow is all I can say. There was absolutely no way I could do anything other than work on the computer. I used to be able to set up lights, make prints, do readings etc. Now all I can do is import cards and apply settings and keep track of how many times I have imported the same card, and how many tiny ticks I have put in many tiny tickboxes. It demands such concentration to wrestle, that I can't even think about assisting the photographer or even enjoying a chat or mid shoot cuppa! I am sure I will get used to it but it is complete backwards step in usability in my opinion. I'm sure all the technologies underneath are fine - image quality IS improved. Web galleries are better looking.
However some things drive me crazy! Aside from not being able to view old tags, IT IS POSSIBLE TO ERASE or ALTER THE STAR TAGS WHEN APPLYING METADATA! Picture this: Big shoot - photographer and client editing till 10 pm, having to process and get on a plane next day at 7pm. So you apply some last minute edits that the photographer has performed on the 1st choice (5 star!) forgetting to uncheck the miniscule box and BINGO! and you have lost hours of the clients and photographers work, and you will never work for either of them again! This makes me very angry.
Also, when importing, there is no progress bar or indicator of how long the card will be importing for - and no manual media eject button in the app. I always thought this was genius in 3.X as you never needed to go to the finder. Also why do you have to change bettween thumbnail views to be able to add images to albums. Did microsoft have a part to play in the development of the user interface?
I do not like moaning about new software just because it is different.
But today I have seen a truly usable, cohesive peice of software reduced to a few separate ideas. I like some of the new features - the backup, thumbnails of imports. Full screen focus, ability to view multiple images, the new Q menu. I do like the way the program looks and it could be really good.
Can anyone think of any features that they DID'NT like in C1 Pro 3.7? I know beginners and people who are not computer literate have problems with the session structure, but aside from that I don't think there was anything I did'nt like about. it.
I am not looking forward to working with this in the future - in fact I am dreading it.
Moan over.
AD0 -
The problem is that they deployed the amateur version of C1 first and now people are using it for PRO work wen it is not a pro program.
Is as if Nikon was going to come out with the D3 but released a Coolpix "before they finished the complicated work of getting the D3 out to market" so photographers "upgrade" to the Coolpix point and shoot while they wait for the D3...
I think that Phase One has to decide if they want to go after the prosumers and kill the Professionals, now they seam to be going in this direction.
If the had not release two betas of 4 and the "final" C1 4 users would not be complaining, but now is as if we got an inedible appetizer and no main dish and everyone is hungrier than ever...0 -
With regard to the new ways of applying adjustments and submitting images to process.
Yes the one-touch Apply button is neat and simple in older versions, as is the ability to only apply individual settings, so why lose it? Realistically though, in v4, once I have selected the range of images (same way as I would in3 .7) then holding down Cmd and Shift and pressing C quickly followed by V doesn't take me significantly more or less time than mousing over to the Apply button and clicking it.
As for the "Shift-Process" feature, its hardly time consuming and I have lost count of the number of times I have accidentally triggered processing of a bunch of images (or the whole shoot) by mistake because they were all still selected, so I actually welcome this feature.
Tony May0 -
All these details aside, Phase 1 really needs to take the simple step of supporting raw files in Capture One Pro for the latest and best professional DSLR's - specifically Canon's EOS 1Ds Mark III. Phase One's clients are, I have to imagine, the most discriminating digital photographers who don't care to use mainstream, clunky programs like Bridge to process and edit. Its a serious mistake to neglect the basic needs of those photographers, driving them away from Capture One and wasting a lot of time in the process. PLEASE, just support the Mark III now and stop worrying about these endless details. How hard can it be to add that one capability? I don't care about ANY of those new features. 0 -
[quote="John Madere" wrote:
(...) specifically Canon's EOS 1Ds Mark III. (...) PLEASE, just support the Mark III now and stop worrying about these endless details. How hard can it be to add that one capability?
Your prayers are heard, at least if you want Canon 1Ds Mk III support in good old CO 3.7.x. To be precise, 3.7.8 was already available for Mac since yesterday. Try it out.0 -
Paul,
Thank you very much for adding the Mark III to your list of supported cameras. My assistants and I will be very happy to be using Capture One Pro again. Although I receive frequent marketing emails from Phase 1 I was never notified of this important update. Many of your users will be anxious to use this capability and I would humbly suggest that you announce it as if it was a major improvement because this is just what it represents.0 -
John,
Phase One has not yet announced this update (CO 3.7.8 Pro) as far as I know, probably due to the fact that only the Mac and not yet the Windows version has been released. I am sure they will as soon as that happens.0
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