Color is different from C1Pro to Processed File
See attached picture. Top image is inside C1Pro6 with adjustments. Middle image is the processed file in Photoshop. Bottom images is the processed file in Preview. Photoshop and Preview look exactly the same so therefore I suspect something is wrong in C1. What do I have to do to make it output a file that looks like what it shows me within C1?
0
-
- Is the proof profile set to "selected recipe" in Capture One?
- has AdobeRGB really been assigned to the processed TIF?
- are your Color Prefs in Photoshop set to "preserve embeded profiles"?
- generally you should zoom to 100%; downscaling may affect the color appearance (in particular the contrast)... although not as much as shown in your screenshot0 -
- Is the proof profile set to "selected recipe" in Capture One? Yes
- has AdobeRGB really been assigned to the processed TIF? Yes
- are your Color Prefs in Photoshop set to "preserve embeded profiles"? Yes
- generally you should zoom to 100%; downscaling may affect the color appearance (in particular the contrast)... although not as much as shown in your screenshot.—At 100% I still get the same issue
It's almost as though C1 is showing the image in an sRGB color space which usually tends to exaggerate saturation. I was hoping someone would give me the magic fix here and say "check this preference on/off". Is anyone else experiencing anything like this or is it just me?0 -
Dana, a magic fix or not, you might want to read a similar thread currently running here:
viewtopic.php?p=43015#p430150 -
Thanks for the link but it doesn't like they have resolved anything either. In fact, they make it more complicated. I am basing my questions off of the fact that if I select a color profile in C1 and open the file in PS and work in the same color space, the images should match. Right? Is something wrong with C1 or am I doing something wrong? It looks like C1 is doing some sort of color management as when I switch between my different recipes with different color spaces, it redraws all the thumbnails and adjusts the images accordingly. It would be great if someone from Phase One could comment here and tell me what I am doing wrong. I don't think it should be this hard! 0 -
- Open your 20101221-Rain session
- Create a new output recipe and set the profile to "embed camera profile" instead of AdobeRGB (on the top of the list)
- shut down Capture One
- in the Finder open the 20101221-Rain session folder
- within the session folder navigate to the folder "Capture One"->Cache->Proxies
- delete all *.cop and *.cof files
- restart Capture One
Still the same issue?
Are you running two monitors?0 -
Dana,
In general terms the preview presented in C1 is just that a preview. The processed file has been altered from raw information displayed as a tiff to an actual tiff algorithm.
I always cringe when people want to have an exact match on screen as I have spent countless hours in the past trying to get the Barco CRTs in my old studio to match exactly across the system and to final output in the pursuit of making others more comfortable.
The fact that PS and Preview display the file identically would be expected. I would start by taking and exhaustive set of measurements from the C1 preview and compare them with the processed tiff. Numbers do not lie so if the numbers match then you are getting the output expected even though the preview is annoyingly different.
Processing files by the numbers allows you to move beyond the display and establish total control over your images. If you become adept at processing your files by the numbers then you can process color files on a B+W monitor and still get the desired output at the print. After all it is the print that matters and systems change based on the components and software updates so if you hold the key to the desired output quality then you can make great files on any system and eliminate minor differences from the equation entirely.
Did you try printing the image and compare final output to the screen versions?
I played with this puzzle on two systems and cannot duplicate the mismatch you are getting so I would also triple check to make sure there are no profile mismatches.
Technology is great but we are the Artists and our final output the expression of that pursuit. Take control of that process, internalize it, and it will not matter if things look a bit different on screen.0 -
[quote="Jeff12" wrote:
with all due respect… I disagree.
In general terms the preview presented in C1 is just that a preview.The fact that PS and Preview display the file identically would be expected
no. Preview color manages through Color Snyc, Photoshop through ACE. Even if you set Apple CMM in the color prefs of Photoshop as preferred CMM this only affects color conversions on images - it does not affect the translation to the monitor profile. In Photoshop the translation to the monitor profile always goes thorugh ACE with black point compensation enabled. The latter may cause little or clearly noticeable differences depending on the black level of your monitor and the monitor profile.
Preview and Photoshop only match when the monitor black level is very low and the respective monitor profile contains a black point of Lab L*0. As soon as the black point is brighter they won't match… as they handle the blacks differently.
Up to V5 C1 also color manged through Color Sync. Here the image viewed in C1 and Preview was exactly the same (by numbers by the way). In C1 V6 Phase obviously introduced a built in color engine and therefore there is a slight difference to Preview (minor though). And also a difference to Photoshop… and this still depends on the black level of the monitor and the respective monitor profile.
Editing by numbers is fine, but the preview in C1 should match the processed TIF viewed in Photoshop at least good enough so that the two images don't look that different as in Dana's example above.
The images below are screenshots of C1, Photoshop and Preview. Assembled on layers in Photoshop and exactly aligned.
Visually they match (virtually)… the only mismatch is in the (deepest) blacks.
http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/cd01_comp.jpg
and the 3 screenshots separately:
http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/cd01_1_photoshop.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/cd01_2_c1.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/cd01_3_preview.jpg
C1 preview compared to Photoshop preview; layer mode set to difference.
The histogram displays the difference of the two layers. As you can see there is only a slight mismatch in the blacks (actually indicernible): http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/cd02_c1_diff_ps.jpg
Preview compared to Photoshop: http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/cd03 ... iff_ps.jpg
Capture One compared to Preview: http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/cd04 ... f_prev.jpg
So they are all slightly different… but you won't really notice the difference.
The difference is clearly far less than in Dana's screenshot above.
So there is something wrong.
Although I agree that the final print is the actual target the damn screen MUST display correct images… and if evereything is set correctly this is obviously possible (see my examples).
Another story is a mismatch between Capture One and Photoshop when your monitor's black level is somewhat higher and the monitor profile contains a black point above L*0. I've already covered the issue in the other thread ( viewtopic.php?p=43123#p43123 )0 -
Thowi,
So you contend the preview in C1 is not a preview, how so?
We just have a profound difference of opinion on the need and value of an exact match on screen my point is to learn how to make your own output decisions based on knowledge and personal choice.
For you the screen "MUST display correct images" I could care less as long as the output matches my desire and expectations the screen could be just a series numerical measurements corresponding to key parts of the image.0 -
[quote="Jeff12" wrote:
no. it is a preview. But "preview" does not necessarily mean that it's not more than a rough approximation to the real outcome (i.e. the processed TIF).
So you contend the preview in C1 is not a preview, how so?
Although it is "just" a preview it should be an accurately color managed preview (and it is accurately color managed in Capture One... though within minor limitations... as I have demonstrated above).We just have a profound difference of opinion on the need and value of an exact match on screen my point is to learn how to make your own output decisions based on knowledge and personal choice.
that's fine! But it won't help Dana or anyone experiencing such a huge mistmatch between C1 and Photoshop.For you the screen "MUST display correct images" I could care less as long as the output matches my desire and expectations the screen could be just a series numerical measurements corresponding to key parts of the image.
again, that's fine if this works out for you. Not for me. But we are not talking about a monitor-print match... we are just talking about the look of C1's preview and Photoshop's TIF on the same monitor ... either way whether or not the monitor matches a print under given viewing conditions.
Dana's problem is related to color managment settings or to an issue with the monitor profile or to an issue with a dual monitor setup or so... or maybe C1's refresh of previews isn't correct. I don't know (by now).
Certainly something that can be solved... not something you have to live with.0 -
I agree that it is convenient and desirable to have the closest possible match and that Dana's is further off than I would like but also suggested looking again for a mismatch since both of my systems are much closer. The exhaustive measurements would also lead to thinking about and maybe even help reveal where the mismatch might be. I wonder if Dana were to open the processed tiff in C1 what the result would be?
Taking control of your own output independent of components in the system helps all who do so and would help Dana better understand the system and I believe make better pictures.
Until Dana makes a print we have no way of knowing if the C1 preview is more or less accurate than those generated in PS or Preview. Would the print module in C1 produce an exact match to the C1 preview?
I agree and welcome anything that improves visual confirmation of the processing parameters I impose when converting any image. But suggest to all that they would benefit from using the available tools to make that confirmation less relevant in their workflow.0 -
Thanks for all the replies, help, and potential work arounds. I haven't had a chance to implement any of them yet as I have been so busy. The fact that this issue is creating such great discussion and heartache is very frustrating. It shouldn't be this hard! For now, C1 seems to be merely a tool to capture and get a rough preview onscreen. I have double checked all my settings, color spaces and they all appear to be correct. I have been using C1 for 5 years so I am usually fairly proficient with it. To me if, I make a "recipe" (stupidest name for an output profile ever) with certain color spaces, etc., it should match the color space etc. in other programs such as PS (which I've been using for 15 years). I have not done an output yet but my monitors are calibrated (NEC and DreamColor displays) and usually my prints match my displays.
It doesn't appear I'm the only one with the issue as other posts in this forum are along the same lines and those posts do not have solid rational fix other than "try deleting preferences", etc. which in my opinion indicates a bug. The Phase One people should chime in here and offer a fix or a suggestion if there is nothing wrong with the software.0 -
[quote="Dana21" wrote:
Dana... generally the color management in C1 works as supposed to. Period 😊
It doesn't appear I'm the only one with the issue as other posts in this forum are along the same lines and those posts do not have solid rational fix other than "try deleting preferences", etc. which in my opinion indicates a bug. The Phase One people should chime in here and offer a fix or a suggestion if there is nothing wrong with the software.
Often mismatches are due to issues with a dual monitor setup (which can also apply to Photoshop CS5 for instance) or even just issues with the naming convention of the monitor profile. Maybe C1 can't read your monitor profile due to the naming or due to a certain tag in the profile. In this case C1 refers to sRGB as monitor profile. Looking at your screenshot posted above this could possibly be the issue here.
If you zip your monitor profile and post a download link I'll look into it.0 -
Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, I get the exact same result on my MacBook Pro which is not calibrated and uses the standard Apple monitor profile. Again, color spaces, etc. match. Reading your suggestions makes sense but also it doesn't make sense that that should even be an issue—Phase One should foresee that stuff and make sure their software can cope. The differences are readily apparent with different files and especially apparent on 30 bit monitors. C1 is great capture tool but I just can't make accurate color decisions with it and that needs to be done in a professional editing application like PS. Which I am fine with but they keep sending me their spam emails touting the greatness of their color control. Yes, there are a lot of color controls within C1 but unfortunately not very accurate. And if I were to get it to display accurately, I suppose I would always be second guessing it's accuracy and constantly checking by reopening files in PS. 0 -
[quote="Dana21" wrote:
C1 is great capture tool but I just can't make accurate color decisions with it and that needs to be done in a professional editing application like PS. Which I am fine with but they keep sending me their spam emails touting the greatness of their color control. Yes, there are a lot of color controls within C1 but unfortunately not very accurate. And if I were to get it to display accurately, I suppose I would always be second guessing it's accuracy and constantly checking by reopening files in PS.
Dana it sounds like you have a ton of experience and at the risk of becoming redundant I encourage you again to educate yourself and learn how to make color decisions by the numbers so that you know what is going to happen before you make the print.
Using a display to make color decisions is a crutch and sooner or later that display will fail and you will have to relearn with a new component.
Capture One does have great color control and if you knew what numbers you were after you would easily be able to manage your color with a fine degree of control.
Have you tried opening the processed file in C1 to see the result and if so does it match the PS preview or the C1 preview?0 -
Just a thought from someone browsing over here from the Windows section, so things might be different on Mac. What rendering intent have you got set in Edit/Preferences/color (PhaseOne/preferences/color I think in Mac)?
Dave0 -
The OP's problem is a simple fix in Photoshop. In the Color Settings menu, under Advanced Controls, uncheck the box for "Desaturate Monitor Colors By". As long as the color profiles match from C1 to Photoshop, everything should be okay after unchecking that previously mentioned box. 0 -
[quote="Terence2" wrote:
and where can we fand that checkbox in the prefs of "Preview"?
The OP's problem is a simple fix in Photoshop. In the Color Settings menu, under Advanced Controls, uncheck the box for "Desaturate Monitor Colors By".
http://www.nine-volt.com/bad.jpg0 -
[quote="thowi" wrote:
[quote="Terence2" wrote:
and where can we fand that checkbox in the prefs of "Preview"?
The OP's problem is a simple fix in Photoshop. In the Color Settings menu, under Advanced Controls, uncheck the box for "Desaturate Monitor Colors By".
http://www.nine-volt.com/bad.jpg
In Photoshop, open Color Settings (Edit menu or Sh+Cmd+K). In the Color Settings dialog, select the More Options button at the right (if you already have more options, neglect the Fewer Options button). In the now extended dialog, you'll find below in the Advanced Controls section the bewildered checkbox for 'Desaturate Monitor Colors By ..%'. Deselect this option.0 -
[quote="Paul_E" wrote:
cool. And how I can desaturate monitor colors in "Preview"?[quote="thowi" wrote:
[quote="Terence2" wrote:
and where can we fand that checkbox in the prefs of "Preview"?
The OP's problem is a simple fix in Photoshop. In the Color Settings menu, under Advanced Controls, uncheck the box for "Desaturate Monitor Colors By".
http://www.nine-volt.com/bad.jpg
In Photoshop, open Color Settings (Edit menu or Sh+Cmd+K). In the Color Settings dialog, select the More Options button at the right (if you already have more options, neglect the Fewer Options button). In the now extended dialog, you'll find below in the Advanced Controls section the bewildered checkbox for 'Desaturate Monitor Colors By ..%'. Deselect this option.
I know how to desaturate monitor colors in Photoshop and what it is for.
Just tell me why Dana's image is also destaurated in Preview (not only in Photoshop).
The problem here is C1, not Photoshop ...0
Post is closed for comments.
Comments
19 comments