It happened again: My star ratings in my most recent session are gone.
Build 14.4.0.101
Some facts:
- I have three sessions: misc., September, October
- I have a session for my October photos
- My problematic album is my 8th album in this session
- This album as 1200 pics (the others average around 500)
- Computer specs: AMD Ryzen 9, 5000 series; 32gb RAM; 1tb SSD; old gfx card (not being used with hardware acceleration)
- C1 has crashed several times during use during the past week while deleting pics from September Session)
How it happened:
- Imported pics into session
- New album was created by default
- Filtered and moved JPEGs to trash; kept RAWs (.CR3 because I shoot a Canon R6)
- Closed C1
- Opened C1 at a later time
- Rated approximately 600 pictures either 2 stars or 3 stars.
- Closed C1, turned off computer
- Two days later, open C1 and only 26 pictures are rated two stars and 25 pics are rated 3 stars. There should be several hundred 2-star pictures and a few dozen 3-star pictures. This is peculiar because it seems that C1 is more likely to drop the 2-star ratings. I'm not sure if I lost any 3-star ratings or not since the number is fairly close to what I expect it to be--which is particularly frustrating
Hypothesis 1: My session is too big.
Hypothesis 2: This is somehow related to the Select Next When: Star Rated option
Hypothesis 3: This is related to me switching from Trial to Subscription. However, this happen in the past when I was on trail, but I just dealt with it because it wasn't a big deal--till now.
Hypothesis 4: This is related to my inability to back up this session to my external HDD.
Hypothesis 5: Google Drive backs up the folder where I keep all my C1 files, and perhaps this is the source of the issue. (I will look further into my Google Drive Settings after posting this.
Attempted solutions:
- I have verified the catalog, no change, no problems reported
Thanks in advance everyone,
Andy B.
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Andy,
You mention both Session use and then catalog verification.
Did you mean Session verification?
When you change the rating (or anything else for the matter) for a variant the new value should be written to the edit record immediately. If the system is busy doing other things there may be a slight delay in how it handles the write to disk. There is also an autosave activity that runs about every 5 minutes most notably when the system is left running but you are not actively editing any or all of the sessions or catalogs you may have open.
When you close C1 it may still have a final close down activity running for a few seconds after it seems to close from the screen. To find out how long it stats running in your system I would suggest using the WIndows monitoring tools. It is probably best not to shut down the system whilst that process is terminating.
The indicated size of the session should not be a problem. I assume you are able to ensure that all files have unique file names.
However, if you are experiencing crashes that problem needs to be investigated.
Sometimes Windows seems to have the ability to leave untidy work files lying around although I think that was more of a problem in Win 7 than anything I have noticed using Win 10. I am assuming you have Win 10 and it is reasonably up to date.
On the very rare occasions when I found my WIn 7 system doing unexpected things (usually when I ran the available disk space too low on the primary SSD) I found that rebooting the system 2 or 3 times in a row WITHOUT starting C1 (or any applications other than whatever was in the start-up menu) could help.
It seemed to allow the Windows start-up process to achieve a better result for cleaning up orphaned and obsolete memory and file system clean-up performed as part of the start-up process. It's worth trying since with an SSD each start likely only requires a few seconds.
To dig deeper there are several Log files that could be read and interpreted but one might need some familiarity and patience to make the most of them.
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Did you mean Session verification?
I ran File > Verify Catalog or Session. I don't remember having any choices in the process beyond clicking the button.
When you close C1 it may still have a final close down activity running for a few seconds after it seems to close from the screen. To find out how long it stats running in your system I would suggest using the WIndows monitoring tools. It is probably best not to shut down the system whilst that process is terminating.
I don't think this is the issue. I typically don't immediately turn off my computer. And I never do a hard shutdown like pulling the plug on my desktop.
if you are experiencing crashes that problem needs to be investigated.
Crashes only happened when I would drag 500+ files into the trash bin. This has happened to me twice. (I sent an automatic error report with my email attached.) Unfortunately, the details are a bit murky.
rebooting the system 2 or 3 times in a row WITHOUT starting C1
Will give this a try
To dig deeper there are several Log files that could be read and interpreted but one might need some familiarity and patience to make the most of them.
This is probably way beyond my skill level
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For the verification - yes there is one option but you then need to select the Session of Catalog you want to verify and, as I recall, it cannot be a currently running session or catalog.
For the Shutdown point. It sounds like you are applying good procedure. I have known the C1 shutdown procedure to get "stuck" and be unable to complete BUT that seems to be related to activities based on my NAS system when it may have slipped into a deep power saving mode and refuses to be woken up by the PC. I suspect the problem is mostly related the WIFI network signal failing to invoke the NAS rather than being a C1 problem. But it can leave C1 in a "wait" loop.
The crashes really should not happen when dragging files to the trash folder. That suggests that some part of the working data set may have some inconsistencies. Possibly a temporary workfile problem. Rarakey it might be indicative of a memory issue. Does it apply to only one session by any chance? Or have you experienced it with more than one session? Multiple system restarts MAY help with that in some cases. No guarantees though.
The Automated crash reports are very generic. They are absolutely NOT personalised problem tickets.
I would suggest, if the problems persist, that you use the "Submit a request" feature of the community to create a Support Case with C1 Technical Support and be sure to include the Log Files ( the process will prompt for them) so that the C1 support team can take a look at the logs. Much easier than attempting to interpret them yourself unless such things are part of your everyday work! Even then they may not be easy to understand propoerly unless one is completely familiar with the way C1 works deep inside.
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Does it apply to only one session by any chance? Or have you experienced it with more than one session?
It has happened with two of sessions. (But not my most recently created session in the same Catalog.)
Also of note, I am unable to backup these two sessions, which is a separate issue.
Next month I am going to try to back up all of my and open a new catalog in a totally different folder and refine my entire workflow. I'll be looking through C1's YouTube tutorials for workflows. Any other pointers would be appreciated.
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If you have a collection of Imported files in a Catalog (Managed Images) or outside a catalog (Referenced Images) the backup considerations are different to the use of Sessions (i.e. NOT catalogs).
One needs to be entirely clear in one's own mind about which situation one has before coming up with a backup strategy that one feels comfortable with.
However, I think the main problem right now (the crashing) sounds like something that you need to resolve sooner rather than later. I strongly suggest you create that Support Case mentioned above.
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>Andy Bodemer: I am unable to backup these two sessions
What exactly are you unable to do? Here is a link to a short old thread https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360013457517-Backup-a-session-in-Capture-One-Pro
With reference to C1 crashing, I side with SFA; you need to resolve that first. It is no surprise that an application crash has bad side effects.
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I had a ticket filed just a month ago about something similar. I didn't see crashes, but my catalog forgot some information after some time. Not the same day but maybe a day later. Affected was edits, import counter and assignment to collections. Most funny thing: "recent imports" still had an entry for every import I did, but there were no images contained, although they were still in the catalog. "check sessions and catalogs" reported no errors.
It looks to me, like since the last versions the database could get corrupted easily starting to behave strange.
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We are seeing "Star ratings" missing from sessions. The files are ok, just the ratings are dropped from some files. We edit with stars on a computer, then open on another computer. This is recent, but the number of starred files is lower because the ratings drop. We have updated both installs of COne to current.. The original ratings are dropped from the original computer. HELP! the reason we maintain two licenses is to be able to edit on either depending on workflow...dropped ratings make this untenable. John Malloy
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John,
What process do you have to share the session between computers?
For example, do you have the session on a shared disk?
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I have a similar problem rating pictures with colour tags. When I close the session (and C1 program completely) and re-open again some, but not all, of my latest colour ratings are reset to the previous setting.
Edit: When I do a database integrity check I get an error: Checking Variant Relationships FAILED.
WIN 10 version C1 14.4.1.6
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Responding to above question, our files are locate on a RAID NAS and we operate through a wired 1 Gig network. Both Cone computers are running 64 bit Win10. The ratings are dropped by opening the image folder on the second install, or closing and reopening on either machine. Not something that we have seen before.
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> John Malloy: ratings are dropped
Dropped means changed to zero stars?
> John Malloy: our files are locate on a RAID NAS
Also Capture One's database files ?
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Yes, the rating changes to zero stars. Randomly, the affected files are distributed throughout the image folder which we leave sorted by date. The files themselves are otherwise intact.
The Capture one database files are contained within the image folder on the NAS drive.
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> John Malloy: The Capture one database files are contained within the image folder on the NAS drive
There are a few reasons why that may not be a good idea. You are basically expecting database server functionality from a database application that is not a server. C1 comes with a third party database software called SQLite (I usually refer to it as SQLite3). Rather than me explaining why it may not be the best idea to put a SQLite database on networked storage, I think you should read a draft document in the SQLite documentation: https://www.sqlite.org/draft/useovernet.html The content is slightly technical, but read it a few times and then ask if some part of it is unclear.
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OddS: Truly, I am expecting the application to perform as it has since we started with the first iteration for the Canon 1Ds. We have used and upgraded Capture One through ALL upgrades since that and have always used a NAS to host the files. We do not WANT an image database, we will not USE an image database, which is why we never used the adjunctive image library when it was made available, nor switched to Lightroom as it demanded a library linked to the files.
We simply use the browser to "open" a folder. That folder will contain the original RAW file, the necessary COne files, and any files output through COne. Neat, easy, and easily backed up as a single subject/object. We certainly expect to be able to use a NAS with our two licenses, I can't think of an alternative workflow other than a shared local drive, that's not a choice IMHO.
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I'm absolutely with OddS that the session database should not be located on a shared drive.
Yet, I doubt that this is the issue. Aren't star ratings saved in the .cop files together with the other modifications when using sessions? Then even a corrupted session file shouldn't interfere with the ratings.John, If you don't use albums etc , I think, you could as well have a separate local session for each user accessing the same files on the shared drive. Almost nothing would change in your workflow.
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> John Malloy: We simply use the browser to "open" a folder
True, C1 session mode browser may appear to just open a folder, like any other image browser. Nevertheless, there are a few SQLite database files involved in a C1 session. The most obvious one is sessionname.cosessiondb inside your session folder where you also find folders like Capture, Selects, Output and Trash. Images you see in the browser window are registered the .cosessiondb database file.
It is true that sharing a SQLite database like you do, may appear to work. Here is a passage from the introduction in the draft document I linked to:
This simple, "remote database" approach is usually not the best way to use a single SQLite database from multiple systems, (even if it appears to "work"), as it often leads to various kinds of trouble and grief. Because these problems are inevitable with some usages, but not frequent or repeatable, it behooves application developers to not rely on early testing success to decide that their remote database use will work as desired.
If I got it right, Lightroom also uses the SQLite database engine. The downside of a shared C1 database approach is the inevitable, not frequent and not repeatable trouble and grief mentioned in the cited text.
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It appears to "work" for well over a decade. The ratings disappearing has only happened within the last week.
The fact is we need to share the information (ratings) to edit on one workstation and do conversions on another. That's the reason we own two licenses, and have used this workflow for years. I'd like to hear the official COne position vis-a-vis using a NAS accessed by two installs. Also an alternative that does not involve a shared drive. I understand that's great advise for a single user, but multiple users or a site license need to interact over a network, or what's the point of purchasing multiple licenses??
Is there any official stance about this from COne?
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John,
In theory, so long as you do not have 2 users somehow working in the same files at the same time, the session process should work as it always has worked whether via a NAS or via a "shared" or portable drive.
Is your NAS just a drive sharing facility or is it set up to perform additional services? Is it safe to assume you have some form of mirrored drive setup (RAID) employed?
Has the NAS had any significant system updates recently?
Have you investigated the "Enterprise" option for Capture One?
Are all the computers sharing a session edited folder using the same revision of Capture One? You may already have noticed that for some time now the edit instructions files have been Version and Revision related. The .cos (Settings) files should also be date and time stamped with the information for the last change date and that might offer some clues, one way or another, about the success or otherwise of writing changes back to the files. It should be instant but may not be and the nature of a NAS storage does open up the potential for additional complexity in a process since it is going to be doing its own things from time to time.
I think you may end up analysing log files (C1, Windows and whatever the NAS offers) plus Event logs to see if problems are being reported.
One of the problems that we all may face from time to time is that something that has worked in the past may not longer work in the same way or without additional assessment and changed settings in the future. The more staps there are in the chain and more development jhas been applied to all of the component parts, the greater the chance that something, somewhere may introduce a new and significant change that may notbe obvious to anyone at the time it is introduced. Checking the logs may be the only way stumble upon the source of the problem prior to evolving a solution.
If you have not already created an official Support Case I would recommend doing so.
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Has anyone tested, if star ratings are saved in the files in the captureOne subfolder for each image? If that is the case, I would be surprised if a corrupted session database or parallel access to the database would lead to discarded ratings.
The approach using a shared drive might not be optimal / very safe, but i'm not convinced that your problem with disappearing ratings is related to that. Maybe they really introduced some bug in the software.
Unfortunately, support reaction time seems to be around 4 weeks at the moment. So you might have to bring quite some patience regarding a ticket.
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Our NAS is a Buffalo RAID setup to share over an ethernet network. We close a folder before opening on the other computer. We additionally have a Buffalo Terrastation connected to my computer VIA USB used to backup files. The phenomenom occurs with either drive. When it first occurred, we were running one computer with a current version, the other was behind one update. We corrected that, it made no difference. I'm not at all sure this is a COne bug, even when we used to betatest COne I don't recall a similar issue. I have opened a support ticket and am available to report issues directly to COne if this is an issue they want to investigate. If I'm the only user with this problem, that definitely points to my unique environment, not much COne can do about that. I suspect it might be only multiple users that see the issue...so time will tell.
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To me it seems that you guys are searching too far for this bug. As I told before I have a similar problem with colour ratings. Today I also tested the start ratings, I gave 5 pics a rating 1-5 and after restart only 3 were still correct. So this bug happens with star ratings as well as colour ratings.
My files and db are not on a NAS, not shared with anyone and I'm the only user. The files reside on a local SSD. The db was repaired after the last problem and now checks OK. So my guess is that there was a new bug introduced during the last update. I was testing the beta before but could not test any further as the program didn't want to start on my PC, and support is indeed slow these days so the beta was already expired when I got an answer.
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So we are already three people having problems since recently. Really looks like a new bug. My local catalog occassionally forgets that I have put images into an album and a few more similar hiccups. The most funny thing is: When I close C1, wait a minute and start it again, everything is fine. When I start - say - the next day, suddenly the latest added images are missing from that album. As a workaround, I exported all originals, created a new catalog and imported the images there. Seems like that solved the issue for now.
John, if you are using sessions and don't need the management features, it should be easy for you to just create a new session and use that to browse your images instead of the session on the shared drive. Maybe it solves the problem for now?
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Looks like Ivo HUTH has a similar problem as me.
I will submit a trouble ticket and include a link to this forum post. And unfortunately I will be switching to Lr Classic while my subscription is still valid. Hopefully this move is temporary because I prefer C1
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Andy, have you tried my suggestion to use a fresh session to browse and rate your images?
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