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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1065 comments

  • Michael Mazzola

    wow, I just found myself browsing cyme & am strongly considering that one-time Avalanche purchase so I am freed of the capture one catalog fetters. 

    1
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    @Christopher Dubea

    I agree. The catalogue system must be one of the greatest limitations of Capture One, and presumably the cause of its recurrent unresponsiveness when searching/filtering, editing keywords, etc.

    When searching for a file name, Capture One becomes unresponsive for 12-14 seconds; when filtering by keywords it's 45-50 seconds. In Lightroom, searching/filtering takes less than a second, with no unresponsiveness.

    While Capture One has its advantages, they can hardly be said to justify a subscription price almost two and a half times that of the Lightroom+Photoshop package.

    3
  • Giuseppe Proto

    La più Grande LADRATA del secolo. Congratulation 

    0
  • Barry Justice

    ove Capture One have stated the following:

    After 1st February 2023, new perpetual license purchases will not include any feature updates (16.x)

    This means that any updates containing new features and functionality will not be included in your license purchase. However, bug fixes and optimizations will be included(16.x.x) until a new paid version is released (16.x).
    Finally as a subscription always provides you with access to the latest version, 
    subscribers will also not be affected by these changes.

     

    EU law as of January 2022 states the following:

    "In January 2022, a new EU law came into effect, enforcing a two-year warranty period on digital goods (such as games and software). Directive (EU) 2019/771, EU Member States is now fully in effect and is challenging digital goods producers to improve and maintain quality and security in the interest of consumers. Significantly, the new rules explicitly state that providers should include bug and vulnerability fixes for at least two years after purchase."

    So why are they not following the law,  are they above it?

    7
  • Francesco Terracciano

    We all agree law is mandatory, but customer support is more than this.
    Serif released an update for Affinity Photo V1 few days ago, after launching V2. I bought that SW some years ago and I'm still receiving support on the forum. They answer quickly with technical suggestions.
    When I asked for support to CO (poor sharpening at fit to screen zoom) it took about two months to be suggested to upgrade to the newest release. And they marked it as "solved".
    I bought CO 23 but I have the same issue.
    That's my experience. I don't think I'll receive better support as perpetual license owner as soon as new license policy changes.

    2
  • Sven Tetzlaff

    It's time to say goodbye. I have never used Lightroom & Co. and will not do so in the future. I've been using CaptureOne since version 5 and have thrown a ton of money at the company. It wasn't a mistake, I felt good about it - it was quite familiar - and the product got better and better. From v19 onwards, however, C1 started to put more and more emphasis on making a quick buck than on long-term customer loyalty. 

    So I am grateful for this new move by PhaseOne, which makes it easier for me to finally say "Tschuess".

    Since v20 I have started to look private at free raw developers. In the end, I chose DARKTABLE as my private raw developer. My employer will have to make a similar decision in September '23, and I will be happy to offer my FOSS expertise.

    By the way, BLACKMAGIC DESIGN is also a hardware & software manufacturer. However, they have taken an entirely different path. I think they will be more successful in the end. Their hardware prices are very well granulated and the most important software, DAVINCI RESOLVE, is available as a free version and as a paid studio version - the latter with a lifetime licence.

    2
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Francesco Terracciano:

    Serif released an update for Affinity Photo V1 few days ago, after launching V2. I bought that SW some years ago and I'm still receiving support on the forum. They answer quickly with technical suggestions.
    When I asked for support to CO (poor sharpening at fit to screen zoom) it took about two months to be suggested to upgrade to the newest release. And they marked it as "solved".
    I bought CO 23 but I have the same issue.

    This is my experience too. Most other software companies offer reasonably quick support and answer questions in their forums too. Not so with Capture One (see this thread). Apart from being slow to respond – due most likely to being understaffed – Capture One's support department often give the impression of trying to brush you off with copy and paste replies.

    Given this and other shortcomings on the part of Capture One, the company and the software, it's difficult to see how a subscription price almost two and a half times that of the Lightroom+Photoshop package can be justified.

    2
  • truepictures

    How many here will recommend C1????

    I see a lot of potential in the C1 software itself. Only the deteriorating purchase options, exorbitant pricing and miserable customer communication and customer support make the product unattractive in its entirety. On a positive note, however, the regular webinars with David Grocer and Ambassador Paul Reiffer are very helpful for an optimal use of C1, at least for me.

    3
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    info:

    I see a lot of potential in the C1 software itself. Only the deteriorating purchase options, exorbitant pricing and miserable customer communication and customer support make the product unattractive in its entirety. On a positive note, however, the regular webinars with David Grocer and Ambassador Paul Reiffer are very helpful for an optimal use of C1, at least for me.

    Well, yes. But the software itself does have its shortcomings, such as the extraordinarily sluggish catalogue/database system – see Christopher Dubea's comment here and mine here.

    2
  • ernst.w

    Avalanche as a converter from C1 to other RAW converters seem to have a version for Windows to:

    https://pcmacstore.com/en/app/1479552484/avalanche-unlimited

    But I had no time to check out till now.

    0
  • Geometricus

    When Adobe moved to the licensing model, I said goodbye LR and moved to C1. Obviously, this "improvement" initiative by Capture One intends to push C1 users into a licensing model. 

    Time to say goodbye to C1!

    I just purchased DxO PhotoLab under their Xmas offer (30% discount), as DxO promises not to move to a licensing model anytime in the foreseeable future.  

    4
  • Propheticus

    "bug fixes and optimizations will be included(16.x.x) until a new paid version is released (16.x). "

    Does this mean that if you are on 16.4 and 2 months later 16.5 is released you no longer receive bug fixes for serious issues?
    This sounds unacceptable to me. Not getting new features is fine, but with the current state of releases (often buggy) this sounds like a big step back. To me it feels like you're trying to frustrate your customers with enough small downsides so they'll want to move to a subscription; a form of negative nudging. The reaction to that is clearly visible by now. Perhaps you could make your subscription more appealing instead; positive nudging.

    Your current license model gave ~a year of fixes which already is on the low end. Normally in the software world (and by some consumer laws) major versions or 'point versions' as you call them (15.x, 16.x) receive at least 2 years of support.

    6
  • Maarten Heijkoop

     

    "Update 8th of December:

    We have read through all your comments and identified some common misunderstandings, that we will clarify here:

    We are keeping perpetual licenses, and you can still buy them anytime, after February 1st, 2023 or even after September 30th, 2023. 

    When we state,"There will not be a Capture One 24", it only means we are changing the product's naming. We will continue to release versions of Capture One Pro, that can be purchased as a perpetual license." 

    What a load of nonsense, if nothing but a name changes, why communicate this. I'm out, I recommend (cyme.io) Avalanche (MacOs) to convert your catalogs to Lightroom (59 euros, lightning fast)

    3
  • Bill

    If anyone wants to see the 2019 audited financials before the Phase One - Capture One split this makes for some interesting reading:

     

    https://api.lassox.com/data/cvr/report?id=99698871/amNsb3VkczovLzAzL2I4L2JjL2UxLzE4LzY5NDctNDhlZi1hM2Y5LWQyNDNiYWVlYmJkNQ.pdf

    1
  • Maarten Heijkoop

    " "I have a license for Capture One Pro 23 purchased before February 1st, 2023"

    You will receive free updates until September 30th, 2023.

    If you wish to get a new version of Capture One Pro after September 30th, 2023, you will need to buy a new license."

    And if I don't want a new licence? Can I keep on using C23????

    1
  • Henk de Haan

    And if I don't want a new licence? Can I keep on using C23????

    Maarten, you should be able to keep using Capture One 23 forever (at least as long it's supported by your OS and CO doesn't disable its activation servers). However you probably won't be receiving any bug fixes after a feature release (similar to the old Capture One versions, but violating EU laws).

    0
  • Dirk Ziegler

    I think, most users understood what C1 has stated here. But communication keeps unclear if you keep your "loyalty program" secret. Of course your customers start worrying about the future of C1 if you keep these essential questions not answered.

    You intend to speed up the release of new features. This means, that main releases such as 16.x will come more often. As soon you have released 16.x customers of perpetual licences won't get any updates (bug fixes, lens profiles, etc.) anymore. They simply have to buy a new perpetual release, but not for the upgrade price but for the full price. This could mean, my perpetual license will be only supported with bug fixes (16.x.x) for a few months or even weeks. It depends how often you release feature updates 16.x. It is a huge step backwards for perpetual license holders. And I think the majority of your customers have perpetual licenses.

    In your communication is too much room for rumor and misunderstanding. That's why you get so many critical reactions. In my opinion this is unprofessional and leads to loss of trust in your company.

    6
  • HD

    Thanks Capture One, you disappointed me!

    I bought Capture One 23 and it will be my LAST version of your software!

    I liked your software but I will not be your cow that you can milk! And be assured...my word of mouth marketing will not be positive! It is so sad that you go this route, but our paths will separate with version 23.

    And please take your decision like a man and do not BS around 'Over the past few years many of you have told us you want access to new tools and improvements sooner, rather than have them all in one ‘major’ version of Capture One Pro at the end of each year.'

    You made a decision....now live with it and do not blame your customers. 

    Good bye C1

    4
  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @ernst.w  I followed the link but can't find the actual download.

    0
  • bernhard sanders

    Answer to Paul Reiffers Footage:

    Paul - you have mentioned at the beginning of your video the comments here, that it is mad to discuss that perpetual license without "facts" and that those, who are complaining, do not make creative decisions.

    But: The communication disaster has been started with the 6th of Dec. (after the black friday sale) announcement of C1, saying clearly, that there will be no price reduced upgrades for the perpetual users and that there "might" be an loyalty programme which will in detail only be communicated AFTER the doors are closed for the "normal" upgrade on 31st Jan. Even more - so it is to read for the common user - that after 1st Feb there might be even no updates or bug-fixes. That IS a fact and no speculation.

    How can a company release such an announcement without ANY further information what will be included in the perpetual upgrades regarding new features, camera support, warranty and bugfixes (probably or likely against EU laws). We are not stupid, we are not mad and our complaints are not odd - they were caused in its full extend by C1 marketing dpt. And telling us that nothing has changed except the numbering and intervals of releases is less than helpful and only true for subscribers.

    And your point, Paul, regarding the price of cameras, lenses and Filters - You forgot to take into account that we own the equipment entirely, we can sell it, use it up etc. That is completely different than the right to use software, there we own just the license and if C1 decides to disconnect the activation servers, we are done.

    Certainly we all complaining here have fears - even on an emotional base. Photography is a business, but also has very emotional elements as well. Most of us love that creative work. We are simply angry and p**ssed. It was C1 who caught us when Adobe stopped perpetual licenses with a, at that time, very attractive piece of software for a fair price and upgrade policy, highlighting the perpetual license and praising themselves for that.

    Yes Paul, i understood that C1 is not skipping the perpetual model. But they have started to make it obsolete because it will be completely unattractive.

    The only reason that C1 has changed the release date of detailed information regarding the "Loyalty Scheme" from 1st Feb. to mid Jan. was that outrage from us, the loyal customers. And it is a pity that you as an ambassador do nothing more than explaining and supporting the C1 announcement in different wording and the help of grafic elements. Excuse me, imho you are ages better in explaining tricks and tipps in C1 and editing to enhance our creativity.

    Telling us that these changes only apply to to subscription users is correct, but there are a lot of loyal customers who prefer for different and damn good reasons to be offline with their computers - a decision which should be accepted. Some have lousy internet connections or even non, do not like the automatic windows updates, hate viruses. Yes, Paul, and there are people who can live without netflix, amazon and twitter, they read old fashion books, listen to wonderful vinyls, communicate via landline or in their favourite pub and go out shopping. Old fashion ??? Come on.

    Do C1 - and you as an ambassador - really think we only have waited for that bloody bad C1 communication to start to blame C1 in an unfair way? This is not a presidents election, and we are not on twitter here. We all writing here have definitely better and creative things to do.

    It was great and i liked the fact, that C1 left us, the customers, the choice of going perpetual or subscription - to our own needs and demands. Some like the subscription model, and they are creative, productive and happy with that. Others like me like the perpetual license and they are not less creative or productive - it is (or was???) exactly the same piece of software. Just a tool!! A good tool. Your point  "Value and Cost" therefore is a bit cruel.

    Certainly it might be seen today as a bit of speculation: I think and it can not be denied, that the subscription model seems in the first place to be the better deal for C1. Because the subscribers have constantly to pay their fee, whereas the perpetual user can easily skip a version. As a result of C1s policy i have skipped V23 upgrade and will wait until i think C1 can be a good partner again.

    C1: you have definitely a plan A and a plan B - otherwise you are - independent of your wages - overpayed.

    The base of all decisions we can make are facts (right, Paul) to decide on. You, C1, have to deliver the full amount of facts and even plans to attract us to stay with you.

    So again C1 and Paul (as an ambassador with connections into C1) - tell us details, otherwise as someone mentioned before - i do not ride a dead horse.

     

    10
  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @bernhard sanders very well put. When one suspects one is about to get stuffed it is not a good idea to leave one's pants down.

    1
  • Shane Baker

    Can anyone tell me definitively, what happens if you're using C1 on subscription and you cancel? I've looked, but haven't turned anything up.

    I understand that with LR, you can continue to access your images, just not edit them. Is this the case for C1?

    TIA

    Shane

     

    2
  • Weldon Thomson
    1
  • Shane Baker

    @Pip yep.

    My experience over the past four years:

    Oct 2019    AUD198.00  -
    Nov 2020   AUD206.04   104% increase
    Oct 2021    AUD242.16   118% increase
    Oct 2022    AUD292.56   121% increase
     
    Not an encouraging trend.
     
    5
  • bernhard sanders

    In addition to my earlier post: Certainly a subscription license would be my choice - if i were a pro making my living with photography. For 219€ / year C1 offers a great value ensuring you always get bugfixes and new extended features. A good base with a good tool. And i would have a powerful Mac (with probably better internet security features) as a tool replacing it with the newest model every 3 or 4 years. All these things are just tools.

    As precious amateurs we want a great editing software to create great results. We do not have to live on that, we do notwork with photography on an every days base just enjoying photography and creativity. We don't rent cameras, we own them entirely and unlimited, we don't pay for updates or some fixed issues (If provided). We do not need every new feature, have a completely different workflow and can in doubt bypass some bugs. I.e. i do not use the database feature for some reasons but have a different DAM which is imho better for my own needs (Daminion Home Server).

    The problem is, that the new perpetual license scheme is - not knowing now what loyalty programme means - by far too dear for us with 349 € if we, as most did, upgrade every year, which has been great so far also due to reasonable pricing in the last years.

    And that is what you have communicated on the 6th of Dec.

     

    2
  • Geometricus

    Either Capture One plans to revolutionize the software industry, or they were really badly advised.

    According to EU law, all buyers of a product have identical rights for having defects fixed - regardless when and where the product was purchased. 

    If Capture One moves to only one product in the future (let's assume it will be called "THE Capture One"), than any buyer of the software will have the same rights of getting bugs fixed.  

    I'm a lawyer and not a software engineer, so I can only imagine the effort it will take to maintain bug fixes for dozens of different versions of THE Capture One. Far more interesting will be to see all the many legal cases Capture One will have to deal with when buyers claim that a change of software represents a bug fix and not an enhancement of functionality. 

    There is a good reason why e.g. Microsoft sells licenses of Office 2017, 2019, etc. to owners of software, while there is only one Office 365 under the SAAS model (or why Adobe has LR4, LR5, LR6 versions, but never offered a CC version to one-time buyers). 

    I fear the main focus of Capture One will be on legal disputes in the future, rather than software development. 

     

     

    2
  • Henk de Haan

    Geometricus wrote:

    I'm a lawyer and not a software engineer, so I can only imagine the effort it will take to maintain bug fixes for dozens of different versions of THE Capture One. Far more interesting will be to see all the many legal cases Capture One will have to deal with when buyers claim that a change of software represents a bug fix and not an enhancement of functionality. 

    I am a software engineer. In modern software development it is not that difficult to implement most bug fixes in different product versions. You have to have decent 'DevOps' in place with good source control, release management and (automated) testing.

    Maybe you could take a look at the current Software License Agreement and check if it's legal at all.

    0
  • francois pellegrini

    The good thing is that Capture One's marketing strategy and poor communication has made me look at the competition. After 3 days spent testing DxO's Photolab 6 on some 'difficult' RAW files, I must admit that this experience has been an eye opener for me. Although I am a Fuji guy, for which Capture One Pro has long been THE reference, I am amazed by the quality I am getting from the competition. This combined with an interesting price offering for Christmas makes DxO's solution very tempting: The competition is not any longer what it was when I moved to Capture One Pro 5 back in 2009! 

    So, in a sense, thank you Capture One for making me look outside and pushing me out of your world :)

    Thanks for providing me with such a good tool in the past, and good luck to you!

    2
  • Everett Rodriguez

    I'm glad I haven't upgraded to 23 yet, now I can go somewhere else and find a better company if not the software... I'd just have to live with the drawbacks for now. Oh well, was fun till it lasted... goodbye.

    1

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