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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1064 comments

  • J M Smith

    Alessio Furlan

    I got a refund as well, my Credit Card provider agreed that they had unilaterally changed the terms of an existing license (not a future license) and reversed the charges for the V23 upgrade.

    The down side is I do not have a working license for V22.

    But the upside is my monthly subscription for LR is US$9.99/month.

    https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/photography/compare-plans.html

    Including:

    Lightroom
    Edit photos on any device with cloud storage, and enjoy easy-to-use sliders, presets, and in-app tutorials.

    Lightroom Classic
    Edit and store your images on desktop.

    Photoshop on desktop
    Transform your photos for social posts, banners, beautiful websites, and more.

    Photoshop on iPad
    Create gorgeous images and graphics with many of the same features you use on desktop.

    Lightroom Mobile
    Capture, edit, and organize your photos on the go with the power of Lightroom in a mobile app.

    Adobe Portfolio
    Build your own website and share your best work.

    Cloud photo storage
    20GB

    I have no need for the online storage but hey it comes with the package.

    I no longer have skin in the game, I am just one of those customers who cut their losses immediately, but it is a ball (and sad) to watch CO destroy their brand equity.

    The other loser in this debacle is Serif's Affinity Photo.  If I am going to have to go back to LR then I am going to use the included PS not  Affinity Photo.

    2
  • Weldon Thomson

    Henk De Haan

    If you only see the product as a piece of software, then I can understand why you might not see the problem.

    The software is owned by Capture One, what we purchase is a license to use said software. At the time I purchased version 22, and subsequently upgraded to 23, I knew and a certain set of terms of the license I was purchasing. Within a few months of both purchases, c1 unilaterally announced changes to those terms which, as yet, we do not have full understanding of. Had they told me of their planned changes ahead of my purchase of the software license (and I believe based on the timing that they did know) I likely would have waited to purchase until I knew the full details. I may, or may not, continue to use the software in the future depending on the details they say they will provide, but what many of us fear is that the details of their plans and pricing may not be agreeable if their “loyalty program” ends up being just a thinly disguised annual subscription and/or the cost of ownership/use of the license (already higher than comparable software) is to high.

    More than that, this move by C1 breeds distrust of the company. Loyalty works both ways, and many of us have a hard time seeing a pathway to feeling comfortable investing our money in the license, our time and effort in learning the software, and locking ourselves into such an untrustworthy and disloyal company by building our current and future image catalogues around their product when, as they have shown themselves to make such changes, they cannot be trusted to make similar (perhaps more objectionable) changes in the future. For many, our image catalogues may be our livelihood, but we all want our image catalogues to be future proof, and know that we will be able to access them and use them indefinitely.

    We bought the license, an investment in a price of software, but we also invested in the faith and goodwill of the company producing, licensing, and maintaining that software, and we made our choices to do so under specific known terms that we understood but which, now, we are told will be changing.

    That is the problem.

    5
  • Jeffrey Kogler

    Noting also that purchases of a perpetual licence to date are made on the offer of a 30% discount for future upgrades.  We are still awaiting whether the advised "loyalty program" matches this offer.

    1
  • Jeffrey Kogler

    Weldon Thomson, extremely well written.

    0
  • Weldon Thomson

    “Awaiting whether the advised “loyalty program” matches this offer”

    If the “loyalty program” requires upgrading every new release to remain “loyal”, and/or if the cost is not substantially better it is going to be difficult to see continuing with C1, especially since this debacle has shed light on the fact that there really are other good options available.

    2
  • Jeffrey Kogler

    Yes indeed

     

    0
  • ALESSIO FURLAN

    Henk de Haan

    Version 15.4.0 (the last 'feature' release before Capture One 23) was released at 20 September 2022, so why would you expect something different in 2023 (unless you believe in conspiracy theories...).

    What you say is not correct.
    C1 v. 23 was announced in September (not released), but was released à mid November.

    Don't make fun of me please, that I'm not doing it with you.

    0
  • ALESSIO FURLAN

    J M Smith

    The down side is I do not have a working license for V22.

    Why? You purchased license 22, so they must reactivate the code for this version. Have you tried to contact them?

    If they don't do it, or they deny it, here we are in front of a very serious fact.

    2
  • Henk de Haan

    ALESSIO FURLAN, sorry I didn't intend to insult you.

    I think our disagreement is merely a semantic discussion. If Capture One releases version 16.4.0 in September 2023 and version 16.5.0 in November we have a situation similar to the v23 release. 

    It all depends on the features implemented in the releases. Looking back at the various 15.4.x release notes no real features were added to the program (mainly new camera support and bug-fixes). For most users there were no big features in version 23 either. If Capture One keeps on 'improving' in this rate they are doomed, no matter what loyalty scheme they are going to propose.  

    0
  • ALESSIO FURLAN

    Henk de Haan

    The question is not semantics and not even the conspiracy. But on the fact that they unilaterally changed the conditions of the license contract, and in fact all reimbursements were considered valid by the various sales gateway (Paypal, FastSpring and credit card gateway) for this reason.

    If nothing changes, it didn't need to establish a date.

    If nothing had changed, disputes would not have been accepted by the various gateway.

    I prefer to live in a world where contracts are respected, not where the seller changes the rules (after having collected the money) even if they "seem" insignificant.

    2
  • Eric

    Thoughts from a Photography blogger that I respect a lot: 

    Thoughts on Capture One’s Licensing Plans — Thomas Fitzgerald Photography

    Pretty much echoes everything that's been said here. 

    3
  • Shane Baker

    Weldon Thomson

    Had they told me of their planned changes ahead of my purchase of the software license (and I believe based on the timing that they did know) I likely would have waited to purchase until I knew the full details. 

    Yes - and me also. I actually bought V23 thinking it wasn't worth the considerable upgrade price, but assuming that Capture One would come through with bug fixes and enhancements that would make it worthwhile. As it stands, a couple of months down the track, C1 16.0.1 is a buggy, lack-lustre piece of software with no indication of when or if it will be upgraded.

    I feel a fool.

    We bought the license, an investment in a price of software, but we also invested in the faith and goodwill of the company producing, licensing, and maintaining that software, and we made our choices to do so under specific known terms that we understood but which, now, we are told will be changing.

    Precisely.

    As it stands, there are things about C1 which to my mind, make it superior to LR. However, a check yesterday revealed I can rent the entire Adobe suite for 59% of the cost of C1. That price difference is telling.

    Furthermore, were I to go back to LR and at some stage cancel my subscription, I could still access my edits. On the other hand, it appears that if one cancels their C1 subscription, they lose all access to their edits. This will need to be addressed in the next fortnight because, for me, the ability to access my edited images is a deal breaker.

     

     

     

     

     

    3
  • Weldon Thomson

    Shane Baker

    I not only bought 22, during the Black Friday sale, for a decent price, but I upgraded to 23 when they announced it for presale just a few months later. My bad, because I didn’t think too much about it at the time, but getting 23 that way actually cost me about $10 more than had I waited and bought it at the full retail price. Only reason I did was plans to get a new camera that 23 supports.

    But the only reason I even considered capture one at its inflated price is because I like what does with Fuji raw files. For awhile, C1 was the best for Fuji. But Adobe Lightroom has caught up considerably, and I’ve used it long enough to know that it just keeps getting better. DXO Photolab 6 now appears to be even better, still, and can work in conjunction with Lightroom.

    Back when I was a Capture One subscriber, I was paying $14 a month (promotion pricing of about half off the regular price). C1 really isn’t much better now than it was then, at least for what I need, and yet I’ve subscribed to Lightroom AND Photoshop for many more years at a (hasn’t changed) cost of only $10 a month.

    It just seems, to me, that it is now Capture One that really has the catching up to do - to keep up with its own hyped up reputation as well as its competition.

    1
  • John Harper

    I logged into my Capture One account a few days ago to see how much an upgrade to version 23 would be, I place it in my cart and naturally didn’t go through with the transaction.

    Sometime later I receive an email asking if I “forgot something”.

    I know they would have ripped me off and it would be cheaper when they let us know the final price, whenever.

    They maybe feeling the pinch.

    2
  • Shane Baker

    Well, 16.0.2 which claims to fix the long-standing loupe bug has just introduced a different loupe bug.

    Meanwhile, 1 February gets closer ....

     

    1
  • J M Smith

    Alessio Furlan

    Honestly Alessio, I don't care about the V22 license. Most of my files that I thought were important were exported to both jpg and tiff.  I got a refund for the V23 upgrade then deactivated and uninstalled C1P.  I didn't ask for a V22 license roll back.

    I subscribed to LR and moved on (other than I am very curious how this plays out for CO, morbid curiosity).

    0
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Just got this reply:

     

    twitter[DOT]com/captureonepro/status/1615638277045854209

    1
  • Jeffrey Kogler

    I'll keep an eye out for it.  I deleted Capture One today (I am setting up a new computer) and will decide later if I reinstall it.

     

    0
  • ernst.w

    And we can see: They did not even hold their self selected and promised date.

    Thanks to Thomas!

    0
  • Jeffrey Kogler

    Depends on the time zone I guess Feb 1 is still 14 days away where I am.

     

    0
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Well, why on earth didn't they just disclose that right away?

    2
  • Ian Farlow

    Wait, so in the best case scenario I can get a perpetual license for Capture One Pro for $179. But, because under the new plan perpetual licenses don’t include .x updates, I would have to pay $179 AGAIN for the next version of the software if that version contains fixes or improvements that I want or need, even if that version came out a month later? In other words, I could end up paying $179 every few months to keep the software current?

    Either they are stupid for coming up with this plan or I am stupid for sticking around for it.

    4
  • woefi

    Well, why on earth didn't they just disclose that right away?

    Well although one can guess the whole thing was planned way ahead in time (it's a big company after all...) I think maybe they were still unsure how far they can go.

    So I think it's possible they backpedalled a little bit for this "offer" and put some lipstick on the pig...

    Which doesn't mean I can understand their decision to go through a possible shitstorm and negative press. 

    1
  • ALESSIO FURLAN

    All that they did is tremendously complex. In Italy it is said "Office complication of simple things". A person has to do the Excel calculations to understand how much a subscription or license costs him over the years. If it should be updated or not to update and how often to do it.

    But above all: how do I know if I will use C1 for a year, two years or three years? If I need updates or not, without even knowing what they will be?

    I don't know who has studied these tables, but should return to real life.

    2
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    So they've spread the information across three separate pages:

    The Capture One Loyalty Program

    Subscriptions, Licenses and Cost of Ownership

    Perpetual License Changes and the Loyalty Program - How it Affects You

    What I haven't been able to find is an answer to the question: if you're on a perpetual license for the latest version of Capture One after 30 September 2023, will you be able to buy the latest updates with new features (the ones that are no longer free), and how much will they be?

    2
  • woefi

    Basically they changed the subscription to add an "perpetual offramp" if you stop the sub. So you can access your edits afterwards, like adobe already does.

    Except:

    (+) It's a full version incl. develop module (but w/o updates)
    (-) It costs a lot if you are subscribed for only a short period and free 5 years of sub...

    1
  • Goran

    This is definitely a step back for us with perpetual license. For one we don't get any new features withing one year, like we used to. And second problem is that we don't even get bug fixes for a year (which is even more important). I can probably live with not getting new features, after all I would get what I paid for (current version), except that I won't get what I paid for as there will almost certainly be bugs and I paid not to have them. So, the biggest question for me here is what happens with bug fixes. They could fix some serious bug only in new version and now we have to pay $179 for that and then again for next serious bug fixed. This Loyalty scheme fails apart miserably by knowing as a fact that C1 is not bug free.

    Very sad.

    6
  • woefi

    Thomas Kyhn:

    What I haven't been able to find is an answer to the question: if you're on a perpetual license for the latest version of Capture One after 30 September 2023, will you be able to buy the latest updates with new features (the ones that are no longer free), and how much will they be?

     

    I guess this would be it:

    I bought my version of Capture One Pro…

    I can get…

    In the last 12 months

    • The latest version of Capture One Pro for $179 / £179 / €209 (40% off)

    0
  • woefi

    there will almost certainly be bugs and I paid not to have them. So, the biggest question for me here is what happens with bug fixes. 

    That's a head scratcher. Not getting new features is one thing. But in this time and age of software releases which are basically still beta at x.0, one should expect a whole year of bug fixes. And just to be clear: there have been and still are a LOT of bugs and regressions...

    5

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