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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1064 comments

  • Geometricus

    Dear mattspace, 

    As a lawyer, I can confirm that with your proposed approach you will have very good chances to get always the newest license for free, provided your domicile is in the EU. 

     

    3
  • Weldon Thomson

    “ your proposed approach you will have very good chances to get always the newest license for free, provided your domicile is in the EU. ”

    I’m guessing it might take some (at least threat of) legal action, but I’m wondering if the basic warranty of merchantability, and/or other similar laws, might do much the same in the US?

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Geometricus wrote:

    Dear mattspace, 

    As a lawyer, I can confirm that with your proposed approach you will have very good chances to get always the newest license for free, provided your domicile is in the EU. 

    If that's our consumer right then C1 should limit the reputational risk and damage NOW and get their act together and announce that they will be providing a bug fix only version with free bug fix releases for the respective warranty period to perpetual license holders (2 years in the EU, or graciously 2 years for all customers around the globe).

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  • Weldon Thomson

    As long as Capture One has been around, now up to 23 release versions, it seems incredible to me that people are so concerned about “Bug Fixes”. This kind of implies that, historically, the software 1) has a problem with a lot of Bugs and 2) seldom works 100% the way it’s supposed to from any given version release. Imagine those who go on the subscription model, receiving frequent new buggy feature updates and having to deal with bug fixes and updates constantly. One of the niceties of perpetual licenses is that once they work, assuming they do, you keep that version and don’t need to update until the user changes something, or a desired feature is released and the user wants to. Users don’t need to frequently adjust their workflow and processing habits to interface changes they may not have really wanted, but get only because they upgrade or update, whether for new features or bug fixes.

    1
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Weldon Thomson:

    … it seems incredible to me that people are so concerned about “Bug Fixes”. This kind of implies that, historically, the software 1) has a problem with a lot of Bugs and 2) seldom works 100% the way it’s supposed to from any given version release.

    I, for one, have had technical issues with Capture One since I first started using it in late 2019. Only one serious issue was caused by an update, at least I assume it was caused by an update (the issue with disappearing masks); a few minor issues were caused by updates, but nothing that would keep me from updating. The other serious issues I've had, and partly still have, were there already when I started using Capture One, e.g. the malfunctioning keystone tool (which has now been fixed, though it's is still quite rudimentary compared to other such tools) and Capture One's poor handling of larger catalogues, though perhaps these things are on a different scale than mere bugs.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “ But that's not's C1's style. Never, ever going to be honest and forthright with their customer base.”

    That is precisely the problem with this this entire debacle.

    2
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Christopher Dubea:

    There are some fundamental things that do not work as advertised, and Capture One either cannot or will not fix them.

    Cataloging is what I'm talking about. […]

    I would LOVE to have a functioning cataloging system.  I would actually pay for a new license if C1 came out and said, it's fixed, or we have removed it. Address the issue instead obfuscating it. But that's not's C1's style. Never, ever going to be honest and forthright with their customer base. 

    Indeed. I have a six months old support request regarding unresponsiveness apparently caused by Capture One's inability to handle larger catalogues. They claim they're unable to reproduce it, but I have yet to hear as much as a suggestion of what to try in order to solve it (apart from the universal turn on or off hardware acceleration). I've done everything I could think of to rule out that the issue was caused by something on my system, including reinstalling everything on my computer from scratch and creating new catalogues, and I've sent Capture One all possible information several times, but all I've heard from them is "we're still looking into it" etc. In the meantime they've merged the ticket with an an unrelated ticket as well as "accidentally" closed it.

     

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  • Weldon Thomson

    I suspect that the more people use the software, the more features and functions they use, the more the find bugs. Bugs may be minor or significant, depending on use. You seem to echo the sentiments of others who share that a number of things, like catalogues, have never really worked right. Maybe people find workarounds or, like you, use other software to fill the gaps? Bottom line is, Capturw One has not been very good about addressing customer needs and fixing problems. My guess, based on the changes driving more people into an expensive subscription model, is that their failures may not be a lack of desire to do so but, rather, a lack of financial resources to adequately repair and maintain the software while simultaneously satisfying their investors. How all this all factors into the equation is in creating a choice for each of us - do we really want to bail out a apparently failing company by pouring money into their product which, though very good for many things, continues to fall short of many customers expectations. They say these changes are to provide customer requested feature releases on a more regular basis (a dubious claim, at best) when what they should be focusing on is correcting, improving, and stabilizing their existing product, first, for existing customers. Instead, they would rather take the road of withholding “bug fixes”, leaving users with known faulty (even if workable) product unless they pay more to fix the problems. I have no desire to bail these thoughtless, greedy, morons out more than the few hundred dollars I have already given them for software that I now must figure out how, or if, I can make use of it in some part of my workflow just to salvage something at all for myself. No way I’m giving them anything else any time soon or without some dramatic changes in their program.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    @Christopher 

    I can very well imagine.

    Unless something unexpected happens before September I'll probably end up switching to a subscription though very reluctantly, particularly because of the way the company handles support – perhaps it would be more correct to say fends off support requests – and communication with users. 

    -1
  • ernst.w

    @Thomas Kyhn

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  • ernst.w

    @Thomas Kyhn

    „ …t would be more correct to say fends off support requests…“ is the only way to Phrase this problem. And therefore I will never end up with a subscription of C1.

    3
  • Steve Oakley

    For those of you considering DXO here are some thoughts. First I did try the trial ver and initially it seemed ok for the couple of hours I messed with it.

    I got "elite" which is the top product tier. One would expect its fully featured yet some really basic things are very missing. There is no add grain tool. For that you have to spend *another* $139 for the film pack option. :( even a few of the presets don't enable it. MAybe I should of bough back in dec wtih the 30% discount which made it almost free.

    Lens corrections : if this matters to you, it may be super frustrating because they are tied to camera body + lens. If you have a Fuji camera and say a sigma wide angle, you are out of luck even if that lens is profiled with say a canon body. The profile is read from the img meta data and auto enabled. even if lens corrections aren't your thing - you pick lenses based on their actual vs corrected prefect rendering, hold on a sec -

    Sharpening : this is tied to the lens profile. so guess what ? you don't have any advanced sharpening option enabled if your camera + lens isn't profiled. This leaves you with a simple unsharp mask. a touch of unsharpmasking can help an image but advanced sharpening is what you want to give images cut and pop. C1 wins here since it doesn't care about lens profile.

    The auto adjustments worked well for some of my landcape work shot on canon. For Fuji I shut all the auto's off since I wasn't thrilled with them. During the trial I'd used DXO on a folder of canon RAW and it was ok. So once you dial in a grade its easy to copy and paste to other images. more so than C1 to be sure.

    The spot correction tools are different, but always editable and seemed ok. The auto mask doesn't outline an object when you brush over it, but in fact it seemed to generally get objects correctly. The only way to see this was to make a very large obvious correction to see the object was in fact selected correctly. UI problem for sure. 

    There are no layers like C1, but each correction with a tool remains selecteable on the image and editable. Works fine, just different than C1

    DXO has a good noise reduction options, but its not my thing or need. I normally shut them off, then miss having a grain tool. if you like NR then you'll like what DXO has to offer.

    Over all DXO is certainly a less featured and powerful tool than C1 :( but if you want something simpler it might work for you. Its certainly very fast. It seems to have a db option to create projects and bring virtual copies of images into projects but I haven't messed wtih that part. My workflow is just to open a folder of images and work there. Sadly DXO makes sidecar files for every image you edit. Good or bad . At least you can bulk delete them if you want easily enough.

    Some other serious limitations of DXO : export limited to TIFF, jpg 8bit and DNG. no PSD, Jpeg2000 or the new standard : HEIC. I was really surprised that it couldn't read the HIC ( HEIC) 10bit images from my new Fuji while the finder and many other apps display them fine. Some really rough edges here. 

    Overall C1 is the better tool depsite its majorly bad housekeeping / db / cache file spraying. DXO can open folders of images just for preview w/o writing anything, C1 can't :( 

    So C1 23 should keep running for the next several years which is fine. I'll  have to export images when I'm done editing them. Maybe DXO has some leaps forwards like more format support for file I/O. Either way unless C1  changes their policies, they have lost me as a long term customer even though I'd bee getting upgrades every 12-14 months. 

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  • bernhard sanders

    Steve

    thank you very much for sharing your experiences with DxO - very helpful for my own decisions. Have you tried the DxO pure raw plug in as well?

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  • Weldon Thomson

    I think, so far, the best option with DXO may be to use Photolab 6 as a plug-in with Lightroom Classic. One could use Pure Raw, which is a little less expensive than Photolab, but it does not offer some of the extra controls and adjustment to fine tune the sharpening and noise reduction that many might want. Also, I shoot a lot of Fuji raws and, for a lot of images and uses, Lightroom now works well enough by itself. So, not all images need to make the round-trip through DXO. One thing I do like about DXO Photolab, though, is that it’s catalogue is basically a file browser, with indexing and search functions based in file metadata, so I don’t have to be a concerned about corrupted catalogues or moving image files around outside of the software. That seems a bit more bullet proof for my way of working than being locked into either Capture One or Lightroom proprietary catalogues. For now, I’m kind of still bouncing around C1, DXO, and Lightroom, trying to see what falls into place as the most functional and efficient workflow.

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  • Mariusz Janosz

    @weldon Thomson Did you try On1 Photo Raw 2023?

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Mariusz Janosz,

    No, I have not yet tried On1. May check it out, though.

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  • Steve Oakley

    No because AFAIK Elite has all that built in. Their site is terribly unclear about things, and whats included in what products. The optics module is apart of elite and thats where the specific camera body + lens comes into play, and ifyou don't have the right combo you are stuck for those features. if there is a way to force over ride the meta data and match your sensor size + lens, I'd like to know but from what I can tell, that isn't possible.

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  • Piotr Dobrowolski

    I have bought DXO as an alternative RAW converter and better DAM (never searched anything untill the license changes in C1)... but after trial it was clear I had to buy 2 additional products than PhotoLab: ViewPoint and FilmPack. The first for Volumetric Correction which is a good addition for regular perspective correction which is included in PhotoLab and a "puppet wrap - like" correction. If You co not need those then it will not be mandatory. Fimpack though unlocks better contrast & color management. Both of the others can be used outside Photolab - so I can also first process in C1 and then do the advanced prespective or color correction in them. I did not consider Pure RAW. DXO is slower when using the AI versions of denoising, the colors out of the box in C1 for me are better, but all can be tweked, Crop tool in DXO does not contrain to image bounds when perspective corrected (there is auto crop though)

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  • Goran

    Just my two cents regarding DXO. As far as I understand split toning is also part of Film Pack. But m biggest issue with DXO is that shadows/highlights recovery is rather poor. "Blacks recovery" is changing way too much of the color range. When pushed, even areas that not nearly black are changed. Considering I take a lot of photos with contrast I need a lot of shadows recovery.

    I found that Darktable does way better job than DXO, comparable with C1.

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  • Udo van den Heuvel
    If a company cares less about customer satisfaction, it will care less about aligning its product so that the customer is genuinely satisfied.
    That's exactly the case here - and C1 Marketeers are doing very little to defuse this impression.
     
    The "loyalty program" is a joke.
     
    The cardinal error of the C1 team is the basic assumption that all users cannot do without C1. This is so wrong - the stupidest thing is always to take the customer for a fool.
     
    So long, honey!
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  • enrico francolini

    Totally disappointed by this policy. Awful marketing. Incorrect behaviour with the customers

    Fortunately, I didn't upgrade to C23. 

    I will switch to another software when C22 is no longer usable.

    You lost another client.

    1
  • Weldon Thomson

    “ they are laying their cards on the table. ”

    Hence, I have already committed to never again sending Capture One another penny. I have found, and will be using alternatives which, for my needs, appear to be as good or better anyway.

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  • woefi

    @ Shark Senesac

    to be clear, with the old licensing system it'd be totally ok to iterate on newly introduced features (did someone just say pano stitching ;) ...)

    The problem is that they also raise the version number to 16.X.0 (just like in the old license scheme).

    So with the new licensing, you would not get any of those "feature iterations" (read: bugfixes) from the point of said release. We're not talking about features, just bugfixes. First, I was hoping they would adapt their development pipeline to the new licensing, but I know that is naive amateur thinking of me...

    Other software companies (eg. Apple, sticks to annual releases) have a "service window" of at least a year for a major version to get most of the bugs ironed out. I would not expect that CO now, magically, achieve the same quality standard in just 3 months...

    1
  • Steve Oakley

    where is the beta download ? or is that only for beta program...I'm in enough of them already.

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  • Paul Reiffer

    Last name First name

    "Reiffer was quick and wrong to condescend the us."

    Not sure exactly where I was "wrong" - given I've never predicted how or when releases and updates would work. (And, actually, we still don't - this is for current v16/23 - maybe the cycles will change in the future, who knows?) 😂🤷‍♂️

    Again, what was discussed was the fact people were making decisions, and global statements on behalf of a wider community, without all of the facts available to them.
    Now those facts are available, people are better placed to make the call that's right for their use.  

    Pretty simple - non-condescending - logical approach, I'd say. 👍

    (As an example of clarified information, anyone with a perpetual license for 23 should absolutely not switch to a subscription until after 30th September, or they'd be wasting money at this point and get the same deal then as they would at any time after 14th February, regardless.)

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Though it is easy for some to call out and diminish others expressed views and assessments as “speculation”, it is hardly speculation when it is pretty clear to so many what is going on and where things are likely headed. Lack of facts can be every bit as telling as an abundance of facts.

    The facts that have recently become available seem to be pretty much what many have predicted from the beginning, although they may still be subject to change (for better or worse), and have not altered my perspective, or changed anything I’ve previously believed/expressed in the least. Capture One is in the process of screwing a lot of its customers and, possibly, itself to some extent. In fact the changes, the companies lack of transparency, and the readily apparent underhanded-ness in how Capture One went about this business over the past 3-6 months, has caused me to looked harder and re-evaluate other options, which I have since determined to be better for my needs, before I had a chance to get too invested in using Capture One in my workflow.

    1
  • Weldon Thomson

    Per Capture One email I just received -

    “ If you want to try a subscription, you should wait until after the 14th, as you will receive a discount on your first year through the loyalty program.”

    After the first year???? Are you then no more “loyal” than any other subscriber and subject to the full price? What is the “loyalty” subscription discount, both monthly and for annual payment, and how is the pricing compared to buying an upgraded perpetual license annually (or when needed for some reason) for as long as such thing may continue to be available?

    Does the license key for the (whatever licenses version) Capture One software you purchased continue to work along with the subscription, or if you later choose to end your subscription?

    1
  • Jack W
    Admin

    Last name First name

    Please remember that you signed an NDA when you agreed to becoming a Beta tester. You're not supposed to discuss details of the Beta publicly and feedback should be given via the "report a bug" option in the Capture One Beta.

     

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  • Olaf Pokorny

    The fact is: no-one has to upgrade to any new version. If you have a perpetual license for CO 22 or 23 or whatever, you can still use it even after September 2023. There is no need to upgrade as soon as a new version arrives. I guess there won't be any pre-order discounts like the years before, so you can wait until you know which features the new version has to offer and then decide if you want to buy a new perpetual license (for almost twice the price of the former upgrade option), switch to the subscription plan (almost the same price of the former upgrade option) or stay with your „old“ licence without any new features.

    I think, this will be the way for me. I'll wait and see what new features CO 17(?) will have and if I really need them. Maybe I'll wait a little longer and see how often new feature-releases will happen and what kind of upgrade plan fits best for me. If a two-year-upgrade is enough, then I'll probably stay with the perpetual license, if I think it's better to get every new feature as soon as possible, I'll switch to the subscription plan.

    Or I leave CO completely and turn to something new... but there's not so much really competitive regarding price, features, workflow and image quality. Furthermore, for a professional photographer it's not the easiest task to change a working horse and I guess that's exactly what „the suits“ know about their customers (and why this crap might work – at least for them).

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Olaf

    The best thing about what Cature One has done, for me, is that it gave impetus for many of us to look seriously at alternative solutions. A few years ago, I might have agreed that there were no competitive alternatives. However, I do not find that to be the case anymore. Even Lightroom has gotten significantly better and is still cheaper, having made many more changes and upgrades than Capture One has, in my experience, over the same period of time. Other companies, such as DXO, are rising up and also offering very good alternatives for many photographers needs.

    The bad thing, for Capture One, is that word is spreading that this is the case, while recommendations of Capture One are declining.

    You said it yourself - “for a professional photographer, it’s not the easiest task to change . . .”

    This is certainly true for most. They have you by the short hairs, and will continue to for as long as you agree to let them. Certainly, new photographers and those looking for a new workflow, need to be aware of this, now, before it is too late for them.

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