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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1065 comments

  • Medea Pers

    Sure, Capture One is more expensive. But google Capture One vs Lightroom, and C1 comes out as the winner. See for yourself. 

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “Google capture One vs Lightroom, and C1 comes out as the winner”

    You have to be kidding! Right?

    1
  • Jochen Schmidt

    A winner via Google? That doesn’t do much for me. After being Johnny come Lately on the iPad, they managed to betray their customer base by entering on a full scale subscription system that even lets Adobe, the former bad guy look like an angel.

    Now Capture One is somewhat of an expensive one trick pony. It really has a good RAW engine but anything else is mediocre. The RAW engine isn’t worth the money over that of Adobe. I could live with it on the old license scheme… somewhat expensive but it also was supporting a vendor who doesn’t rip the customers via subscriptions. Ha!

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  • Mariusz Janosz

    The best thing is that after changing licence policy C1 release new functionality significantly more frequent as they promised 😂 (as soon as new functionality is developed so in fact this mean that they not develop anything right now)

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @Medea Pers, I think most posters in this thread are sufficiently advanced to make their own determinations with respects to Capture One's capability and cost/benefit without resorting to Google derived reviews by others.

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @Mariusz Janosz, I'm interested in seeing new functionality also.  Because I purchased v23 I am holding off until September to make a decision about its use going forward.  What functionality is added/improved between now and then is a major factor in that decision.  In the meantime I am putting aside $AU15 a week to purchase a newer incarnation of the software if I judge it to be value for money, or if not I will have some cash ready to access alternatives.

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  • J M Smith

    I am running CO V23 and LR side by side and there is nothing that CO can do that LR cannot.

    For significantly less cost than CO, you get LR, LR for iPad, PS and plus some additional benefits.

    This is a no brainer!!!

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  • truepictures

    COL (Capture One Live) is a damp squib. Why? Check Frame.io - there is a powerful tool, a powerful service on the way, across brands! The development of COL is nothing more than a monetary and personnel-intensive waste of resources. The Frame.io service not only offers all the features of COL but goes far beyond them. And Frame.io is integrated into Capture One for optimal collaboration! This makes COL completely superfluous and with it the costs and manpower for development. The money would have been better invested in the software development of Capture One for better functionality and bug fixing.

    Even if so far only Fujifilm with 2 models offers "Camera-to-Cloud" natively, others will follow, especially the professionals. In the future, this will not only affect professional cameras. But older and current camera models can also use Frame.io with an Atomos recorder. People, get smart!!!

    Back to Capture One. Why was so much money wasted when something much better was already on the market? The management has failed mercilessly here. The customers are now supposed to make up for the losses with higher costs. No wonder that nothing is happening with the software development of Capture One … it's a disgrace!

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  • John Romer

    I admit I am opposed to the changes and complained early and often. I also use Photoshop all the time. So the decision is Capture One vs. Lightroom. A few years ago, we are all incensed when Adobe changed the policy on owning the app. Have we all forgotten that? We all have the right to be angry and keep venting. Go for it. Capture One has been slow to make changes, and it always feels they have held back things for the next upgrade fee. I hate that more than the subscription. Lightroom is not for everyone.

    Capture One Live is still half-baked. Frame.io is still half-baked.  It is integrated to Capture One and other applications and platforms. But it does not support many camera systems, but as you point out, you can use an Atomos recorder. They are not that expensive in the scheme of things. It is more video-focused based so does not figure in my photo stream at this point.

    How many of us are using Capture One for video? Not this user.  So not sure this would weigh on my decisions either way. Did it use development resources? Yes it did. Point taken. 

    Is $179 a year vs $120 a year so much different it puts your business under? Are you incensed due to the change? Ok. Were you incensed when Adobe changed policy? Swore you were gone forever? You are back?

    Not a fan boy. I help start the fires long ago, but this message stream is concentrated with the group of people incensed and leaving. I will just throw out some other ideas. I can use Lightroom. I have had access for many years. Meh. I went to CO when Apple abandoned Aperture and me. Any company can change. How many of you went to Windows because Aperture went away? Some I am sure. I went to CO from Aperture because they alone had a path for Aperture users.

    Just thoughts. Debates are made to be two-sided. Debaters don't need to be only on one side.

    If you are incensed now were you incensed with Adobe? Apple? 1Password? Any of a hundred or more other companies that changed their model? At least there is an opportunity to own a license. I will point that out.

    I know everyone can argue every point I make. There are nuances to any decision. 

    Make your informed decision and go with it. 

     

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  • Jochen Schmidt

    You cannot compare Adobe here with CO. Yes many people were angry with the way Adobe has gone to subscription… but thing is… they were leading in this. PhaseOne did lure Adobe users into a non-subscription offering. Apple did just cancel a product. They didn’t lure people into it and then did throw them before the bus.

    I‘m not angry at PhaseOne. I just can clearly say that their product isn’t worth that much money and that Adobe indeed offers MUCH more for less money.

    But that’s not the whole story. If I think back at the development story of CO I clearly can see that there is little chance the software can keep up with the future. All they’ve done in the last years is moving some buttons and views around. When I started, their database code was horrible. It was clear why it was that dog slow. Still until today the software is all but fast.

    Not having an iPad app for years was also a clear sign. What we got now is half arsed.

    Adobe is doing research on generative AI models and lots of other stuff. I‘m very certain that PhaseOne sleep on all of this too.

    I also switched from Aperture to CO - at the start it did look like they go into the right direction. Not anymore.

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  • J M Smith

    Pip

    Yeah they have to deliver meaningful, full featured updates.  They have to fix the catalog once and for all and they have to stop making meaningless or half baked features.

    I think CO has painted COP into a corner, they do not have the financial firepower to do the necessary research that Adobe can do.

    I have contended all long that CO's PE owner (Axcel) is looking to exit.  CO will either be sold or will merge with another company.  They might just fade away as well, but I don't see that happening.  But change is coming and that is usually never good for users.

    I wasn't happy about making the switch to LR/PS, but I am actually now ecstatic, the apps are rock solid, the edits are great and the cost is a fraction COP's cost.

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  • Jochen Schmidt

    Maybe Apple buys them and labels it Aperture Pro X 😅

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  • J M Smith

    Hahahahahahaha...

    Maybe Black Magic Designs

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  • J M Smith

    New LR announcement...

    Adobe Lightroom Adds New AI Innovations and Improved Masking

    The article is on PetaPixel, I will post the link in another post.  If it doesn't show up then head over to petapixel and you will find it.

    Adobe is on fire!!!

     

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  • J M Smith

    Pip

    They also don't realize how pissed their customers and former customers happen to be...  (Actually probably don't care)

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  • Jacques-Albert De Blasio

    Personally I wish C1 would just aim to be a first class RAW editor, with great catalog features and exports. Of course C1 would have to be priced at half of what it is today. I do not need all the AI bells and whistles; a lot of it appears to me as fancy gadgets, and in the end not helping photographers getting better at what they do => take great photos. I don't know, maybe I'm getting too old already :) And it looks like from now on, if you don't do anything related to AI as a company, you will be left behind and forgotten. Urg... :)

     

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  • J M Smith

    Pip

    I am ecstatic with LR (are there bugs and issues? sure).  There is nothing that COP can do that LR cannot do and LR's catalog works.

    I resorted to a new CO catalog for every single shoot to try to mitigate the instability of COP's catalog system.  A complete rewrite of the catalog subsytem is imperative.  Looks like that is not going to happen

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  • Shane Baker

    Pip:

    The bottom line is clear - C1 might be a good RAW editor but unless it starts innovating big time in such areas as AI, it is history. That is just reality at this stage. And let's face it, when C1 considers synchronising dates to be a major feature, it is time to accept that that battle is already over. What they don't seem to get, is that it takes some cheek to ask the price they do for a product that is becoming increasingly out of date as each day goes by.

    Yep. I've voted with my feet (or my credit card) and bought an LR subscription (for much less than the annual C1 "update" of the past few years), and this LR 12.3 release has confirmed I've done the right thing. Some UI improvements plus noise reduction which actually works - in a dot release.

    Overall, I consider C1 to be the better raw converter (just), but LR's DAM (I have several C1 catalogues now rolled into one), its masking (which is superior to C1's about 98% of the time), and the absence of spinning beachballs makes LR a better option overall. Also, I know where I stand with Adobe (more or less), whereas I have no confidence in where the beancounters are taking C1.

    A shame - but there you go!

     

     

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  • Michael Parker

    I’ve not commented for a while as I felt I had said all I wanted on the subject.
    I bought the upgrade to 23 before release so I’m eligible to updates until September.
    So far they have been rather underwhelming to the extent that I’m not inclined to subscribe in future to get feature updates as soon as they are released.
    As I have no intention of upgrading my camera equipment in the foreseeable future,my plan now is to keep the version I have until it breaks because of a Windows update.
    Having read the more positive comments about Adobe I may swallow my pride and return to their software. I ditched Lightroom when my perpetual LR 6 started to lose some functionality.
    I did find the software slow and was concerned I’d be paying a subscription for software that would get slower with each update.
    I now have a faster computer so maybe it will be better.

    In the mean time I’ll stay with my last version of C1 until it breaks.

    As others have said for what you get C1 is pricing itself too highly in comparison with the lightroom and Photoshop bundle.
    Are the results from C1 that superior that C1 can demand the higher cost of use ? 

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  • Jacques-Albert De Blasio

    Pip

    I think it is clear that CO cannot compete with Adobe. The latter such a bigger company, with so much more money to invest, so many more software engineers, that there is no way (in my opinion) for C1 to reach Lightroom's level with all those new tools. Adobe can afford to lose money, can afford to sell us all their tools for $12 a month. Isn't this how big companies work ? They give you a lot for free, or for a minimal amount, and they just kill the competition (and in this case, with great tools and great quality).

    Hence my wish that C1 focus on what they were best at some time back, RAW edition. A few years ago, *that* was what really set C1 apart from Lightroom. They need to find a way to make C1 shine again, while not trying to go in multiple directions and lose themselves. And of course, they need to readapt their prices. 

    I am not a pro photographer, just an amateur who enjoys using C1. I moved from Capture NX 2 (at the time it was such a great software with the control points!) to C1 when Nikon gave up NX2, and now have like most of us here thousands and thousands of photos with edits. I may be lazy, but I have no strength left to move again to another tool. I have to admit as well that I do not like mammoth companies like Adobe too much and prefer to support the "underdogs" :). That being said, I will never move to a subscription; so I will keep my perpetual license of C1 and move to a new version when I really feel the need (new gear or maybe new computer). Of course I will pay a high price, but I will again keep that license for a few years; so all in all I guess I will land back on my feet.

    I am not too optimistic with the future of C1. Looking back at how the software evolved the last 3 years, and the change of price plans, I am afraid we are looking at the end of it in the next few years. It pains me, as I really like the software and am sure that some employees in CO are passionate about photography and their software. We'll see what the future holds; hopefully I am dead wrong about C1 !

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hey guys, have a look here and defend our right of speech. This might possibly be the attempt of censorship in the forum:

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/10531772978717-Rules-for-the-community-let-us-know-your-thoughts?page=1#community_comment_10542370441245

    Remain polite with your answers (at your will) :-)

     

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  • J M Smith

    @BeO

    The rules are designed to shut off dissent. They can do whatever they want. Not my circus and not my monkeys.

    It is just one more nail in the coffin!!!

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  • Thomas Pietsch

    Thanks CO, for me your change in licensing model was the necessary trigger to give up my comfort and look around the market.
    Even though I now pay monthly, the cost is 40% less and the feature set is much higher. What actually convinced me at the Entde from LR, I need only a fraction of the time to sift and edit images. With about 5000 images per shoot, that's a lot of free time gained. So thanks again.

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  • J M Smith

    @Thomas Pietsch

    I don't think the results that CO obtained were what they were hoping for.

    1.  Huge dissent

    2.  Flight to other solutions

    And now CO is offering a 50% discount to upgrade to a V23 perpetual license...  Plus they are wasting precious resources on an iPhone app.  They should have fixed the myriad of issue with COP instead, catalog, panorama, HDR, keystone, just to name a few...

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  • Sascha Schlachter

    @Thomas: yeah great offer (ironic), 50% off for standalone without anything (compared to monthly all inclusive) and no updates.

    Really C1? What’s next? Ridiculous!
    I love your software, but what you managed to achieve might be the end, until otherwise you row back! (strongly suggested)

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Yes, 50% with no updates, not even bug fixes for reasonable time, (and new bugs introduced in 15.3 or 15.4 and not fixed since) is not a compelling offer to me.

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  • Guy Daudelin

    To me, there's no real surprise here.

    I was expecting the "loyalty scheme" to be a way to make it so uninteresting to be on a perpetual license that it would force us into subscription. But this is even worse :

    The loyalty program is mainly good for the subscribers, and using the perpetual license as a carrot on a stick to stay on as a subscriber.

    Think about it this way, it's using the perpetual model (being able to continue using the software even if you are not "upgrading") to incite people into subscribing. But that "privilege" has always been reserved for perpetual license owners, and the disadvantage of subscribing. It's just reversing the natural order to make it almost impossible to want a perpetual license and get on the subscription.

    Now, there is another problem. People who switch from perpetual to subscription might be in for a surprise. They can change the terms at any time. Actually, I don't think most people will choose the perpetual option, let's be honest. But as almost nobody buys that, C1 reps will be able to say : "Well, as we can see, nobody's really interested in having a perpetual license anymore so let's just kill that."

    So, in 5 years, when you let go of C1, if there's no perpetual license available, you won't get one as promised as it won't exist anymore. They will just conveniently change the terms.

    It's pretty sad, really. C1 said that already 80% of their new customers were subscribing instead of buying a perpetual license. The difference in price wasn't even that big and when you bought the annual update early at a discount a couple of years, it became pretty even in terms of cost. The reason why people choose the subscription option is baffling to me. Guess some frogs like to jump in the heating pot by themselves.

    I am not that mad at C1, personally. Just like I'm not mad about drug sellers, because they wouldn't exist if people weren't buying their stuff. I'm just confused at the choices people make when it's time to spend their money...

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  • John Harper

    And the Forums are dead.

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  • Steve Kaye

    Subscription based software should be illegal.

    It holds your intellectual property hostage in return for paying fees.

    I encourage everyone to contact the major photographer's association in their area and ask them to work on this.

    I've already called PPA.

    - - -

    Based on the comments posted here, I conclude that many photographers agree with this.

    So I wonder how many customers Capture One has lost so far because of the new "Loyalty" program.

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