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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1064 comments

  • Jacques-Albert De Blasio

    @Jochen Beck I agree with your comment. Though, as you said, I would expect C1 to provide updates even to perpetual license owner for the lenses and new cameras. But as they did not do that in the past (i.e. you had to buy a full upgrade to get the new cameras), I don't expect C1 to provide that for free. Maybe at a fraction of a license cost, like 10€ for a new camera, would be acceptable ?

    Also I expect perpetual license owners to have a reduced price when upgrading; we'll see what that "loyalty" thing is about (I still cannot understand why they don't give us the details now, this is really bad communication and very annoying).

    Of course, I would agree with all this provided that they keep the perpetual licenses available, AND that the owner of such a license is able to use the software forever (meaning as long as it is supported by the OS). 

    I am afraid though that their new proposal indicates that if a new version of the OS is out and makes your current C1 version unusable, you will HAVE to buy a new license. I would be ok with this after 4 versions of the OS (Apple gets a new version every year and has the tendency to break previous compatibility), but not after a year or two.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Jacques-Albert De Blasio:

    Also I expect perpetual license owners to have a reduced price when upgrading; we'll see what that "loyalty" thing is about (I still cannot understand why they don't give us the details now, this is really bad communication and very annoying).

    It's entirely possible that the new loyalty programme will be beneficial for Capture One users; as the details haven't been disclosed it can't be ruled out yet. And if this turns out to be the case, Capture One could have saved themselves lots of negative reactions, loss of customers, etc. Whatever the case will be, they could have prevented a great deal of misunderstanding. As it is, it's difficult to point out any good reason not to expect the worst.

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  • ernst.w

    @Thomas Kyhn
    > As it is, it's difficult to point out any good reason not to expect the worst.

    That‘s the point. And this is the reason for the shitstorm they got back.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Jacques-Albert De Blasio:

    “we'll see what that "loyalty" thing is about”

    There are, of course, multiple questions with regard to the “loyalty” thing. First is regarding what kind of deal “loyalty” gets anyone. Second is what, exactly, will define “loyalty”.

    I agree that, based on the handling of this mess by Capture One, thus far, there is absolutely no reason for anyone (perpetual license OR subscription holder) to not expects the worst.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Pip 6

    “They increased the upgrade (discounted) price by 35% from v22 to v23. That is the context we are operating in.“

    I purchased C1 Pro 22 on 8/31 for a discounted price of $149.50. Two months later, I upgraded to C1 Pro 23 at the pre-sale discounted price of $159.00. Altogether, I would have been better off, by $9.50, had I waited and just bought the full C1 23 Pro License today at the full retail price of $299. Would have been way better off had I bought it on sale from B&H where it was reportedly less than $200. I feel like such a sucker. No mention of impending release of 23, when I bought 22. No mention of any new “loyalty scheme” or changes to licensing when I upgraded to 23. So, what IS “loyalty” in the minds of Capture One?

    I have absolutely no faith that they have any idea of the concepts of “loyalty”, “fairness”, or anything that is reasonable for customers.

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  • Edwardsson

    I would very much like to be able to buy Capture One for the iPad at a one-time payment. I will not get a subscription just to be able to use CO on my iPad.

    Affinity Photo works perfect on my iPad and that was an one-time payment for ALL their apps on the Mac OS, Windows and iPadOS platforms. Why couldn't Capture One do the same?!

    Come on Capture One! Surprise me at Christmas!

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  • bernhard sanders

    I am really a bit obset - the only thing we are looking for is a very good piece of software with reliable service and the safeness to continue perpetual licenses for a fair price to do editing of our work.

    For reliably conditions, we all need necessary updates including codecs for new cameras, an upgrade scheme for new features for reduced prices as we had for perpetual licenses, and a trustworthy partner to deliver that. That is easily to understand by reading our reactions.

    C1 - If you are listening and withdraw your 6th Dec. announcement and offer us a chance of stable and fair conditions for the next years to come (for perpetuals), i might stay with you. But do you really believe, that i am going to invest in the 23 version not knowing what is going to happen in Sept. 23 ? Under these circumstances i will not invest even € 100.-- in the current upgrade as my 22 works greatly - it is a great RAW- converter with a not very good DAM - but i do not need the DAM. Therefore it could be a good idea to deliver 2 versions - one great stable and bit cheaper RAW converter and a version including the DAM.

    Certainly and unfortunately we do not know any facts of your future plans beyond 23 (for perpetuals) because you refuse to deliver them to me/us - instead you are using obviously other channels well known also for alternative facts like FB or TW (where i have no access to) to influence the discussion causing even more confusion. Please be fair and communicate your plans or reactions asap openly here in this forum as we do.

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  • Udo van den Heuvel

    Capture One said:

    What is changing?

    After 1st February 2023, new perpetual license purchases will not include any feature updates (16.x)

    This means that any updates containing new features and functionality will not be included in your license purchase. However, bug fixes and optimizations will be included(16.x.x) until a new paid version is released (16.x).
    Finally as a subscription always provides you with access to the latest version, 
    subscribers will also not be affected by these changes.

    Translated this means: If you buy on - e.g. 2023 04 15 our Version 17.2.3 you'll get updates until 17.3.1 comes out. When it's 5 days later, your software is out of update scheme and you're free to buy a new license for 17.3.x

    Phase One: Do you want your customer to feel like an "useful idiot"? Sure, you offer a solution for 360€ / Year. "Should the idiot go for subscription". Really?


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  • Sascha Schlachter

    @ Udo: yeah, this is what it is all about: why we don’t want you to be idiots: go for subscription 😂

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  • EIW

    604 comments........... saying: why on earth would I buy into this mess? OH.. I already did? Can I get my money back?  Specially when you laid this all out AFTER I purchased  whatever I purchased............then you tell me I'm actually not getting what I thought I was getting.  But wait and see in Feb.   And you subscribers don't have to worry, because you are already subscribers.... 

     

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “ 604 comments........... saying: why on earth would I buy into this mess? OH.. I already did? Can I get my money back?”

    I’m curious what anyone’s experiences have been in getting successful chargebacks with their credit card companies for recent purchases of C1 22 and/or 23??? The reason I ask is because of this “wait til February” issue in finding out more info. The problem is that most credit card companies will not dispute charges made after more than 90 days, although some may be better than others. This “wait til February” thing may just be designed to put people off until after their time limits have lapsed???

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  • J M Smith

    I talked to my CC company about this and they said it appears I have a case.

    However, the two major issues are 1) my catalogs are updated to V23 and it is apparently one way, and 2) after using the chargeback route, I suspect that CO will not reissue a V22 license… So short term we are $)/;ed, long term CO is $)/;ed…

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  • John Harper

    I've given some thought to this, you are better off keeping V22 or V23 rather than having nothing.

    Capture One have gone down this path, they won't change their mind and I will never trust them again whatever they offer.

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  • Gerald Moulder

    Cockpit error in Avalance will not convert from one version of C1 to another.  Thought I was clicking on C1 v22 catalog but it was not.  This presented a choice of Capture One V23 or Catpure One V21 as the target catalogs.  Avalance will convert from C1 to LR, Apple Photos, Luminar 4 or AI. Also, you can write to a folder hierarchy but as with most conversions, some information may be lost. Avalanche has a trial of the full version but it limits the output to 100 images.  I will be converting c1 catalogs to LR!

    Avalanche by cyme.io is a photo catalog converter that will convert Capture One catalogs to previous versions.  I just tested going from C1 22 to C1 21 and it worked just fine.  The Avalance interface showed targets versions of 23 and 21 so I imagine it is limited but you will be able to convert 23 to 22.  cyme.io offers a montly subscription, yearly subscription and a license. 

    As far as the license 22 should run on the 23 license or they should issue one for v22 and earlier

    I had the same issue with another company and got a refund.  The license was still valid but I did not attempt to use it for the vesion it was issued on.

    Avalance converts a number of catalogs to Lightroom, Capture One, Apple Photos, Luminar 4 and AI or to a file system folder.  It runs ion Mac only however.

     

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  • Paul Reiffer

    @Gerald

    Have you actually *checked* the output?

    From Cyme’s own FAQ’s on Avalanche:

    “ Limitations of Avalanche
    (*) Not all edits can be converted due to the complexity of the proprietary formats of the catalogs. Avalanche will not convert mask based edits, or local adjustments (spot removal, healing brushes, etc…). Advanced color grading is not handled either. All images that have adjustments that are not supported, will be placed in a dedicated album for easy review.”

    So unless you never use local adjustments or masks in your edits, it may well be the sum total of useless as far as tools go.

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  • Gerald Moulder

    Paul Reiffer I was in error about C1 to C1 conversion, thought I had clicked on c1 as the source. Yes there will be changes lost but weighing the cost of the new features and what they offer I would be willing to move backwards. I tested C1 23 and found the ugrades worth less than the price of the license upgrade.  Over the last year and a half C1 removed what was the best in the business Output Tool Tab, one thing that made C1 rise above other editors.It was replaced with an ill-designed malfunctioning Export Tool tab with the feature of hidden watermarks.  Checked out LR, DxO Photolab, and On1, none of them offer the chance to add a watermark without seeing it. I beta tested the addition of HDR and Pano where the discounted upgrade ended before beta testing began.  Past release beta testing started well before the discount ended.  Both HDR and Pano are lacking compared to other apps but I purchased the upgrade anyway. When I asked David Grover when proofing would no longer be required to view a watermark in the Export Tool Tab, he said it would not be fixed.  At that point I decided it was time to move on.  I would like to continue beta testing, and yes I follow the NDA religiously, with the hopes someday that C! will return the the glory days of 14.2 plus a smattering on improvements we have experienced since.  Meanwhile, I have listed all of my C1 catalogs with embedded and referenced images and will be converting them with Avalanche.   Regards and Go Man City! 

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  • Paul Reiffer

    @Gerald Moulder - But the Export Tool Tab was put back in the very next .X update to the software, literally.
    Did you miss that update?

    Avalanche is going to be useless to you - not simply "taking a step back", if you're saying your edits are what you want to protect and carry over.  By their own admission, it doesn't do that.

    Proofing to view watermarks makes sense - maybe not to your workflow, perhaps(?) but to many, it really does.
    Which is always the challenge for software - different people have different expectations, needs, workflows and approaches.  Software can be customised to an extent, but at a certain point the developers have to make a call as to "the way it'll work", which won't be everyone's cup of tea, but is designed to be that of the majority's.
    (It just sucks when we learn we're not in that group sometimes!) ;-)

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  • Gerald Moulder

    I did not miss the update. The Output tool tab (V14.2) was not added back but the Export tool tab was.  With the output tool tab to generate dynamic output took a couple of tokens with a forward slash in the Output Location Tool Subfolder field.  Each recipe by default looked at the output location tool and if the subfolder was populated would write out to the spcified location.  Otherwiase, the Ouput folder in a sessions or the specified output folder in a catalog.  E.G. you want to write 3 different jpg recipies, one tiff file for print, by Job Identifier/recipe name (assuming Job id was populated during tether shooting or post), go to Output Location Tool and add Job Identifier/Recipe Name to the Subfolder field (use / on Mac).  If you wanted to have say a dng written to another location for cloud storage you simply use the Output Recipe File subtab within the Output Recipe Tool and add the path.  This takes precidence over the Output Location Tool. Now to undo the dynamic output you merely clear out the subfolder field in the Output Location Tool. With the new Export Tool Tab you specify the dynamic output in the god awful Export Cross Recipe Tokens (sounds like a C++ class name). Then for each recipe you want to use for dynamic output you must add the Token 'Subfolder' to the Subfolder filed of the Export Location Tool.  Here we have one field required for dynamic output for each recipe checked,versus one field plus one field for each recipe you wanted to use.  And clear out one field versus addressing each and every process recipe you have changed.  I practised on both before time the scenario of 3 jpgs, 1 tiff, and one dng to a fixed location and the Output Tool tab was as least twice as fast then the Export Tool Tab. I am still running 14.2 on one laptop and can send screen shots if you wish.

    How does proofing to view a watermark make sense? This allows you to alter the image with out seeing the change.

    Proofing by design is to view a close facsimle of how an image will look when printed with Paper/Printer ICC profile using a properly calibrated monitor, with proper brightness. I assume some may use proofing to see how the resolution of a small jpg may look.  DxO just added softproofing to Photolab 6, in the past you had to export a file using the ICC profile and open the file to see soft proofing, or print a test copy, but you cannot add a watermark that is hidden. Having software where you can alter the appearance of an image without seeing the change makes no sense.If you need to hide the watermark why hasn't Adobe, DxO and On1 changed? I was told by C1 that there were number of complaints and they would address the issue.  Maybe enough photographers will send a watermarked image by mistake, Nevermind, this won't happen.  

    If not Man City the Go Liverpool as a second choice but Mac City first!

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  • John Harper

    I finally bit the bullet.

    I'm an amateur photographer, after a week of testing DXO Elite 6 and talking to DXO they offered me an upgrade to DXO Elite 6 for $119 US, I already had a very old version of Elite.

    For me my work flow won't change much.

    All my camera and lens profiles going back to the Nikon D100 were freely downloadable.

    I still think Capture One is the best software around, but how long, if they survive is it going to take them to produce the goods, especially when you don't trust them.

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  • J M Smith

    John,

    I did a combination of filing a charge back with my credit card provider, exported a great number of files to jpg and tiff. I then used avalanche to convert my 100 or so catalogs (C1P simply cannot handle large catalogs) to LR. I resubscribed to LR/PS and am moving forward. I doubt after going the charge back route that CO will reissue the V22 license 🤣…

    I will continue to work on exporting to tiff until C1P stops working.

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  • Ari Kangas

    Nice to see how they value their own software. I could purchase a new subscription license for 219e/yr. Or I could "upgrade" my current perpetual license to a subscription one for ... 219e/yr? 

    I'm a hobbyist photographer, I don't make a cent from this. I originally moved from LR to C1 because the SaaS model was too expensive for me. I struggled on for a few years on LR with all kinds of discounts I could find but it got too tiresome so I went with C1 and was happy. I liked the software much more even though it didn't have all of the features I used at that time, but I got by. Losing PS (with the photography pack) was more of a hit. But I bought Affinity Photo and thought it was close enough, especially considering the price (and a perpetual license). I've upgraded my C1 whenever I could afford to, usually with pre-order deals to get support for my newer camera models etc. I can't afford to even dream about the current subscription pricing, and apparently any kind of discounts are going to be even more of a struggle than it was with LR. I'm now forced to either pay 219e/yr for C1, 148e/yr for LR+PS or find yet another software and learn that. Honestly, I know only one option I will NOT be taking, and it's the C1 subscription. 

    For some reason I have been dropped out of the email communication two years ago and as I get so many messages I didn't even realize it until now that people talk about v23 preorder deals. I probably would've bought that if the price was right to get by a few more years, but now it seems I'm fucked. I've still got v20 as it was the last one I got any information about and while it serves me ok for now, I'm pretty sure I'm going to start having issues with it sooner or later, and I don't want that to be later so I need to start looking for an alternative right away. 

    C1 is a nice piece of software, but I'm sad they only want professionals as their clients. I could stomach ~100e upgrade deals every second year, >200e/yr is way out of my budget. It was fun for as long as it lasted. :( (And again, I don't need all of the new cool features, but I also don't want to end up in a situation where my options are to pay hundreds of euros for update I _HAVE_ to get for the app to even work. The money's tight and I may not be able to do that immediately.)

    If the "loyalty program" (whatever it is) meant anything to them really, they would've got it together at the time of this announcement, not just seconds before the deadline to buy the upgrade. Not that it matters to me as the current "upgrade" price is way out of my budget anyway. 

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  • Thomas Schneider

    One further question for understanding:

    After 1st February 2023, new perpetual license purchases will not include any feature updates (16.x)

     

    With each new version usually always also various bugs are fixed. Am I now not getting this bug fixes because it contains a new feature? Or does C1 really bother to release 2 different versions, one with only bug fixes, the other with additional features?

    Is it really worth it? To annoy most of its long-time customers, to have a considerable additional effort in programming and distribution and to produce an additional confusion of program versions?

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  • ernst.w

    @Thomas Schneider

    You will get bug fixes up to next feature version only - as told by Capture One. This is against EU law but maybe Capture One did not mention yet.

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  • Thomas Schneider

    that means, if it goes really bad, C1 will release a new feature with the next update and I will never get a bug fix?

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  • Florian Spicka

    i understand it right- if i change from a permanent license to a subscription the permanent license lost? Or it is possible to keep my Version 22 permanent license and have a additional license as a subscription? Or you really take in this case the permanent license i did pay for already?

     

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Amazing and inconceivable, to me, that this thread of very clear discontent has continued so long without any substantive response from Capture One. I’ve seen more than a few claimed representatives respond, but invariably stating that they “can’t” say anything. That, alone, should be enough to tell us something.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Florian Spicka:

    i understand it right- if i change from a permanent license to a subscription the permanent license lost? Or it is possible to keep my Version 22 permanent license and have a additional license as a subscription? Or you really take in this case the permanent license i did pay for already?

    If your perpetual license is really cancelled if you switch to subscription, you should think that you could just create an additional account for the subscription.

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  • ernst.w

    @Thomas Schneider

    Yes. You would have to pay for a feature update license to get Your bugfix.

    @Florian Spicka

    You upgrade to subscription and lose Your perpetuum. But You may take a perpetuum additional to subscription.

    To be subscribed and hold a V22 perpetuum license too will bring You - what exactly? You will work with subscription and catalog V23 up, Your perpetuum license will not handle older catalogs.

    The only way COULD be to buy a perpetuum license when ending subscription - IF there is still a perpetuum license at this point.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    They have already said that my current license will receive big fixes and feature updates (assuming they chose to release the latter) until September 2023 and that after that date, I can buy the new release if I want to with some “loyalty” scheme. My expectation is that the “loyalty scheme” will be a reduced upgrade price only for those who keep up by upgrading with each new release, thus effectively making our “perpetual license” a perpetual subscription. Depending on pricing structure and what they actually do, such an arrangement MAY NOT be such a bad deal for many. I really cannot understand why, it should be difficult for them to elaborate more on the terms they are considering, or why they should think it unreasonable for us to expect better answers, especially considering they have lures and snagged many of us, with new releases and special prices without mention of any potential changes, within only the last few months. It, understandably, just feels like a bait and switch - whether it actually is or not.

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  • Florian Spicka

    ernst.w

    in my family each member uses a camera and a single pc. So, one could use this license i did bought. The funny thing is that if i buy cameras for my children- they are too young to make a contract by law, they can't use capture one express they did got with the cam together. For me it is not possible to install several capture one express versions in my name for our children. 

    So i do not buy a enterprise license- i just wants to use two licenses in one name- a subscription and my permanent license. 

     

     

     

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